Sulcata Bent Anal Scutes ?

[tortoiselady]

Hi,
I picked up three abandoned and now rescued sulcatas yesterday all under a pound each and all three of them have very bent anal scutes (up ward). They are all light in color - some ivory coloring but not albino. They also all three have narrow beaks with a slighly shorter bottom jaw. I am wondering if this is from something like raising the temp while incubating them? Any ideas out there? I want to know as much about them as possible before we put them up for adoption.
Thanks!

 

[dmarcus]

I will be the first to say it... Pictures really would help.. I can picture in my mind what your saying but for help, being able to see what your talking about will make a big difference...

 

[tortoiselady]

I will be the first to say it... Pictures really would help.. I can picture in my mind what your saying but for help, being able to see what your talking about will make a big difference...

Trying like crazy to get my computer to work...

 

[dmarcus]

Looks like they are there now, lol...

May be something that has happened during there period of bad care and has has progressed along with the pyramiding you see.

 

[tortoiselady]

Looks like they are there now, lol...

May be something that has happened during there period of bad care and has has progressed along with the pyramiding you see.

Bad care is an understatement. The good news is they have good dispositions and are already eating and pooping like none of this ever happend to them. They were left in a box outside a donation center for a thrift store :-(

 

[dmarcus]

Looks like they are there now, lol...

May be something that has happened during there period of bad care and has has progressed along with the pyramiding you see.

Bad care is an understatement. The good news is they have good dispositions and are already eating and pooping like none of this ever happend to them. They were left in a box outside a donation center for a thrift store :-(

Now that just is not right, way better ways they could have done things...

 

[Yvonne G]

My first clue is the fact that the little bit of new growth you can see in the one picture is already a darker brown. So these tortoises have been raised indoors with no sun and probably no UV light. The anal scutes have a tiny bit to do with nutrition and calcium, but a lot to do with no UV and no moisture. Those are the types that get the poop stuck inside the shell area. Whoever you adopt to should be made aware of that...to always check, every day, to be sure all the poop has fallen out and is not building up.

 

[Jacqui]

The anal scutes have a tiny bit to do with nutrition and calcium, but a lot to do with no UV and no moisture. Those are the types that get the poop stuck inside the shell area. Whoever you adopt to should be made aware of that...to always check, every day, to be sure all the poop has fallen out and is not building up.

If poop can get caught up in there, do these tortoises also have problems with laying eggs? Any hope that as young as they are, with age this will lessen with more proper growth? Or will it actually grow worse?

 

[tortoiselady]

The anal scutes have a tiny bit to do with nutrition and calcium, but a lot to do with no UV and no moisture.

WOW - you are right on these are the driest feeling tortoises I have ever touched. It is weird. They were out for an hour in natural sunlight today and we will do it every day the temps are good outside. On the poop note all three of them have poopped and they do it fine but I am worried about later too - what do you think? Will these anal scuts need to be sanded down? I always want to be honest with the new families as it is a big commitment.
Thanks so much for the help.

 

[Laura]

wow.. some people...
what gets me is how they survived with no care or poor care and others who are raised and loved and given everything and die anyway...
what is different? why?
anyway.... good save!!!

 

[Jacqui]

wow.. some people...
what gets me is how they survived with no care or poor care and others who are raised and loved and given everything and die anyway...
what is different? why?
anyway.... good save!!!

That has always been something I wonder about, too.

 

[Tom]

wow.. some people...
what gets me is how they survived with no care or poor care and others who are raised and loved and given everything and die anyway...
what is different? why?
anyway.... good save!!!

That has always been something I wonder about, too.

In most cases I would bet large sums of money that its their first few weeks after hatching. Hot bulb, rabbit pellets, no water... You know the routine...


In the case of these three rescues I'm also going to guess no sun or UV was the biggest factor. Probably no water, or not enough, and poor diet too.

 

[tortoiselady]

wow.. some people...
what gets me is how they survived with no care or poor care and others who are raised and loved and given everything and die anyway...
what is different? why?
anyway.... good save!!!

Very hard to know, but it has made me wonder too. These guys do have a serious will to live - great little dispositions. I am going to make sure they get a better life. Actually we do our best to make sure for all the tortoise that come into our chapter, but some really get under your skin more.

---

In most cases I would bet large sums of money that its their first few weeks after hatching. Hot bulb, rabbit pellets, no water... You know the routine...


In the case of these three rescues I'm also going to guess no sun or UV was the biggest factor. Probably no water, or not enough, and poor diet too.


[/quote]

What do you think about the bent anal scutes for the future? Too hard to tell? or

 

[Livingstone]

I would say that the poor conditions they were raised in has to do with that. You can tell in the second picture from the rear, that the carapace has failed to grow down to protect the vulnerable hind quarters of the tortoise. I think the anal scutes growing up is a natural way of protecting what would otherwise be a vulnerable area to a tortoise. In healthy sulcatas they grow the skirt down around the back feet so when the tortoise pulls in/digs there is only a small area left vulnerable.

Future wise, I will say that its always more difficult to correct these problems than prevent them. You need to work on hydration help relieve the stress on the animals kidneys. I would say daily warm soaks ~90 degrees, and an environment with a high ambient humidity 60% or greater, coupled with a nutritious and hydrating diet will go along way.

 

[Laura]

I wonder.... since we dont know much about what the proper care of youngsters is.. if we love them TOO much.. overfeed. overwhlem thier systems,, and they just cant handle it all.. since these poorly fed and cared for ones seem to 'thrive' in thier own way.. maybe more 'tweeking' is needed..
Burrow-Humidity- Ck... but food and amount fed? maybe we are overdoing it too soon? Too rich?

 

[tortoiselady]

I would say that the poor conditions they were raised in has to do with that. You can tell in the second picture from the rear, that the carapace has failed to grow down to protect the vulnerable hind quarters of the tortoise. I think the anal scutes growing up is a natural way of protecting what would otherwise be a vulnerable area to a tortoise. In healthy sulcatas they grow the skirt down around the back feet so when the tortoise pulls in/digs there is only a small area left vulnerable.

Future wise, I will say that its always more difficult to correct these problems than prevent them. You need to work on hydration help relieve the stress on the animals kidneys. I would say daily warm soaks ~90 degrees, and an environment with a high ambient humidity 60% or greater, coupled with a nutritious and hydrating diet will go along way.

Got started on soaks and lighting already and they have smelled the damp coconut coir often, like they don't know what it is. I have never seen sulcatas or any tortoise act like they were afraid of the water like these three. No expert here at all, but I have had a fair amount go through here in the last few years. They were fun to watch discover grass yesterday when we sat outside for an hour. This is going to take some time but these three should make great pets. All of them have good dispositions and make great eye contact.

---

I wonder.... since we dont know much about what the proper care of youngsters is.. if we love them TOO much.. overfeed. overwhlem thier systems,, and they just cant handle it all.. since these poorly fed and cared for ones seem to 'thrive' in thier own way.. maybe more 'tweeking' is needed..
Burrow-Humidity- Ck... but food and amount fed? maybe we are overdoing it too soon? Too rich?

Recently I have learned a lot from the new website Ojai Sulcata Project. I have been lucky enough to visit twice now and see it all first hand. Amazing! I have tons more to learn but I love how natural it all is there and most of all I like how he explains why. I like to know why - I guess I never got over that stage as a kid (lol).

 

[TaraDodrill]

I decided to check the Ojai Sulcata Project out, seemed like a refuge worthy if a donation. The dedication of the man who started the project is amazing, but all the pages I have read so far seems more than a kittle rude and condescending. Nearly everything I have read on there about Sulcata care directly contradicts what all the helpful and for the most part, equally knowledgeable breeders on the forum have shared.
I thought I had created a perfect habitat, care routine and diet. Now I am really confused.
The website says in no uncertain terms never to soak, and to keep humidity at 45, that's just two of the polar opposite care rules posted.
Tom, Austin, Tyler, Yvonne, help!

 

[tortoiselady]

I decided to check the Ojai Sulcata Project out, seemed like a refuge worthy if a donation. The dedication of the man who started the project is amazing, but all the pages I have read so far seems more than a kittle rude and condescending. Nearly everything I have read on there about Sulcata care directly contradicts what all the helpful and for the most part, equally knowledgeable breeders on the forum have shared.
I thought I had created a perfect habitat, care routine and diet. Now I am really confused.
The website says in no uncertain terms never to soak, and to keep humidity at 45, that's just two of the polar opposite care rules posted.
Tom, Austin, Tyler, Yvonne, help!

I agree, it is very opposite of parts of the information out there, but when you see it in person it all makes sense. He has made as close as possible a little piece of Africa on multiple acres and it is all natural. In person he is the most polite of people you could ever meet - he is very passionate about tortoises. I am very guilty of the "mothering" part of sulcatas or just tortoises in general. I do have to admit when I checked with my reptile / tortoise vet he backed up Ojai Sulcata Project (OSP) as being correct. If we are able to replicate what they really have in Africa it would be more like what he describes. I went to a lecture given by a gentleman (Tomas I believe was his name) last November who is one of the founders of a rescue in Senegal, Africa, and his research also agrees with a lot of OSP. His accent was hard to understand but he is working out in their natural habitat - we or most of us, are pet owners doing the best we can with artificial attempts at keeping them. The gentleman that owns OSP has also been to Africa and is going back later this summer to work with this rescue in Senegal. He is going to bring lots of technology with him so that he can record as accurate as possible what is going out in the natural environment. He will update what he discovers first hand once he returns. I find that exciting. I am sorry you did not find him refreshing - I do. It really makes so much more sense when you see it in person – that is the best I can explain it. This is MHO as I am learning daily from these majestic creatures.

 

[dmarcus]

I decided to check the Ojai Sulcata Project out, seemed like a refuge worthy if a donation. The dedication of the man who started the project is amazing, but all the pages I have read so far seems more than a kittle rude and condescending. Nearly everything I have read on there about Sulcata care directly contradicts what all the helpful and for the most part, equally knowledgeable breeders on the forum have shared.
I thought I had created a perfect habitat, care routine and diet. Now I am really confused.
The website says in no uncertain terms never to soak, and to keep humidity at 45, that's just two of the polar opposite care rules posted.
Tom, Austin, Tyler, Yvonne, help!

Its hard to recreate there living condition in captivity, all we can do is our best. I don't think you should not base how you are caring for your tortoise by what he is doing. At best you should see what he is doing and find out what will or won't work for your situation.