Sulcata Growth Concern

Devious Rhesus

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Hello all! Longtime listener, first time caller.



Last December, I purchased 4 baby Sulcata tortoises from a reptile show in Houston, which were hatched by Texas Tortoises and Exotics. They have been active, eating, and excreting since day one.

I’ve also weighed and measured them on Wednesday each week. One seems to grow quite rapidly, two slow but consistent, and one has not grown a millimeter. On the chart below, ignore the slight carapace length increase - I changed how I measure with my calipers:

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Their habitat is a closed top “Christmas tree box,” which is approximately 50” by 20”. This is temporary housing until the weather warms in Texas and we can move them outdoors most of the time (inside barn, heat boxes, etc, supervised outdoor pen time until large enough to have free access.

The lighting is a full length LED fixture, an incandescent bulb over a rock for basking, a T5 fluorescent UV bulb (Arcadia). There are also 2 x 120 watt ceramic heat emitters hooked up to a thermostat.

Night temps are 80-85 degrees and 85-90% humidity. Day temps are 85 on the area away from basking, 95 on the side with basking, and 105 directly beneath the lamp. Humidity drops through the day into the 70’s until I spray it all down in the evening. Was maintaining above 80%, but we’ve finally got dry weather here! One of the tortoises arrived with slight pyramiding, but the new growth, however slight, is much smoother.



Tortoises are getting daily soaks. Water is present at all times. Food is available at all times, but is freshened twice per day. Food is escolar, arugula, yard weeds, ground up Mazuri, and a tablespoon of Kapidolo Farms dried plants from a rotating menu.

The one that grows rapidly is an absolute pig. One of the ones in the middle eats a small portion then naps. The other middle tortoise eats, leaves, and returns a few times. The smallest does eat, but spends most of his time in the food bowl sitting in the middle of it not consuming. His stools are also soft compared to his stablemates, but not runny.

I’ve included pictures below of the tortoises and their habitat, and would appreciate any feedback you might have on next steps. There are extra pictures of the smallest (split scute port side aft). I’m concerned since it’s unusual for any tortoise to go a month with no growth, especially a Sulcata!! Thanks in advance! :)

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Tom

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Hello all! Longtime listener, first time caller.



Last December, I purchased 4 baby Sulcata tortoises from a reptile show in Houston, which were hatched by Texas Tortoises and Exotics. They have been active, eating, and excreting since day one.

I’ve also weighed and measured them on Wednesday each week. One seems to grow quite rapidly, two slow but consistent, and one has not grown a millimeter. On the chart below, ignore the slight carapace length increase - I changed how I measure with my calipers:

View attachment 385243

Their habitat is a closed top “Christmas tree box,” which is approximately 50” by 20”. This is temporary housing until the weather warms in Texas and we can move them outdoors most of the time (inside barn, heat boxes, etc, supervised outdoor pen time until large enough to have free access.

The lighting is a full length LED fixture, an incandescent bulb over a rock for basking, a T5 fluorescent UV bulb (Arcadia). There are also 2 x 120 watt ceramic heat emitters hooked up to a thermostat.

Night temps are 80-85 degrees and 85-90% humidity. Day temps are 85 on the area away from basking, 95 on the side with basking, and 105 directly beneath the lamp. Humidity drops through the day into the 70’s until I spray it all down in the evening. Was maintaining above 80%, but we’ve finally got dry weather here! One of the tortoises arrived with slight pyramiding, but the new growth, however slight, is much smoother.



Tortoises are getting daily soaks. Water is present at all times. Food is available at all times, but is freshened twice per day. Food is escolar, arugula, yard weeds, ground up Mazuri, and a tablespoon of Kapidolo Farms dried plants from a rotating menu.

The one that grows rapidly is an absolute pig. One of the ones in the middle eats a small portion then naps. The other middle tortoise eats, leaves, and returns a few times. The smallest does eat, but spends most of his time in the food bowl sitting in the middle of it not consuming. His stools are also soft compared to his stablemates, but not runny.

I’ve included pictures below of the tortoises and their habitat, and would appreciate any feedback you might have on next steps. There are extra pictures of the smallest (split scute port side aft). I’m concerned since it’s unusual for any tortoise to go a month with no growth, especially a Sulcata!! Thanks in advance! :)

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Your set up, diet, and routine all sound excellent. I see one problem: You bought from the wrong source. These babies were started all wrong, and you can see the clear and obvious evidence of this in the heavy pyramiding at such a young age and small size. The lack of growth is another tell tale sign of a poor/dry start. Sorry to give you bad news, but at least you know.

All you can do at this point is offer excellent temperatures, diet, daily soaks, and high humidity, and hope for the best. You are doing what can be done.

Outdoors all the time in warmer weather is not good for babies. It's good for them once they get up to about 8-10 inches, but they need to be sleeping indoors in a large closed chamber up until that time. My general rule of thumb for babies is an hour of access to sunshine per inch of tortoise per day. It's best to leave them inside most of the time when they are under 100 grams. After that, an hour or two gets the job done, but isn't "necessary". Babies do better indoors. Outdoors is great for larger ones.
 

ryan57

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This doesn't look right to my untrained, inexperienced eye at all. What is the swelling of the neck tissue? Edema of sorts? This is probably a trip to the vet and isolation from the others.
 

Devious Rhesus

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Your set up, diet, and routine all sound excellent. I see one problem: You bought from the wrong source. These babies were started all wrong, and you can see the clear and obvious evidence of this in the heavy pyramiding at such a young age and small size. The lack of growth is another tell tale sign of a poor/dry start. Sorry to give you bad news, but at least you know.

All you can do at this point is offer excellent temperatures, diet, daily soaks, and high humidity, and hope for the best. You are doing what can be done.

Outdoors all the time in warmer weather is not good for babies. It's good for them once they get up to about 8-10 inches, but they need to be sleeping indoors in a large closed chamber up until that time. My general rule of thumb for babies is an hour of access to sunshine per inch of tortoise per day. It's best to leave them inside most of the time when they are under 100 grams. After that, an hour or two gets the job done, but isn't "necessary". Babies do better indoors. Outdoors is great for larger ones.

Thank you very much for your expertise Tom, but it is of course disconcerting to hear that about the poor start! The breeder told me that they start the babies with high humidity and soaking, and eating spring mix combined with Mazuri. It didn't sound bad, but I guess I should have been more informed on what I was looking at, so my own fault. I know that you cannot predict the future, but what has been your experience with Sulcatas started too dry? If they survive, will they eventually adopt a more normal growth curve? Or are they dwarfed for life and/or die too young?

I'll take your advice on the outdoor timing. What are your opinions on the carrot bath that gets recommended so frequently? How common could a parasite be causing a growth delay?
 
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Devious Rhesus

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View attachment 385254
This doesn't look right to my untrained, inexperienced eye at all. What is the swelling of the neck tissue? Edema of sorts? This is probably a trip to the vet and isolation from the others.

That picture looks way worse than what I noticed in person, but now that I look closely I agree - It's terrible looking! I'll inspect again tonight during bath time, and try to get photos in better lighting. If you all agree that a vet visit is still in order, I will do it! I'll start calling around for a herp-knowledgable vet right now just in case...
 

Tom

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Thank you very much for your expertise Tom, but it is of course disconcerting to hear that about the poor start! The breeder told me that they start the babies with high humidity and soaking, and eating spring mix combined with Mazuri. It didn't sound bad, but I guess I should have been more informed on what I was looking at, so my own fault. I know that you cannot predict the future, but what has been your experience with Sulcatas started too dry? If they survive, will they eventually adopt a more normal growth curve? Or are they dwarfed for life and/or die too young?

I'll take your advice on the outdoor timing. What are your opinions on the carrot bath that gets recommended so frequently? How common could a parasite be causing a growth delay?
If they get into the correct conditions, get hydrated, and they pass that magical 50 gram mark, most of them continue to grow normally and have a long normal life.

I don't know if the breeder/seller was lying and telling you what you wanted to hear, or if their idea of high humidity is an open topped enclosure with hot bulbs and dry substrate that gets sprayed once or twice a day on the surface. You cannot produce pyramiding like that in such small tortoises without excessive dryness. Maybe they used MVBs and the babies basked under them a lot because the ambient out from under the bulb was room temp. Maybe the breeder left them outside all day in nice weather. There are many possible ways it could happen. What did NOT happen was a warm humid closed chamber and daily soaks.

Babies should be started on a HUGE variety of weeds, leaves, grass sprouts, flowers, opuntia pads, and other such things when they first hatch. Starting babies on spring mix or lettuce and Mazuri makes it very difficult for the new owner to get them eating right. This is another red flag, at least in my mind, that tells me that I would not have bought a baby from this seller. Live and learn.

Carrot baby food soaks are for tortoises that are very lethargic and not eating. Not needed for your group.

Vets don't know tortoise care and usually give terrible care advice. Vets know medicines and wound care, and surgery and that sort of thing. This is what they learn in vet school. They learn tortoise care from all the same wrong sources that everyone else learns from. The same sources that say sulcatas come from arid environments and need desert-like conditions. Be careful. Don't let the vet do a "vitamin" injection. Clear red flag that they don't know what they are doing. The only thing I would do with a vet in your case is take in a fecal sample from the small one that isn't growing to check for an excessive amount of worms.
 

Tom

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That picture looks way worse than what I noticed in person, but now that I look closely I agree - It's terrible looking! I'll inspect again tonight during bath time, and try to get photos in better lighting. If you all agree that a vet visit is still in order, I will do it! I'll start calling around for a herp-knowledgable vet right now just in case...
P.S. Do you work with macaques? It's been a few years now, but I worked with several Rhesus, cynomolgus, and lion tails in years passed. Several hamadryas and olive baboons too. Plus assorted new world monkeys as well.
 

Devious Rhesus

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Hello all!

I just wanted to give you all an update. After my last post, I decided to give the carrot bath a whirl, just to make sure the little guy was at least getting enough calories. When weigh in time came and there was no gain, I scheduled a vet appointment. There is one near me that is a member of the Association of Reptile and Amphibian Veterinarians, and seems to specialize in “exotics.” The appointment was last Friday.

After examining the tortoise and taking a fecal sample, these were the possible assessments:

1) It seems like Speck’s body is slightly “bloated,” as if he’s too large for his shell. This may indicate an inability to process calcium, inadequate supplementation, or failure of the UV bulbs. They recommended me to buy a UV meter and prescribed liquid calcium gluconate to administer orally. Since the meters are very pricey, and the T5 setup is brand new from Arcadia, and since one of the tortoises does seem to be growing, I decided to focus on the calcium for the time being. They said that failures of new equipment are rare, but do happen. They also mentioned that “every time they see a calcium deficiency the owner is using ReptiCalcium,” but since that sounded kind of bogus, I assumed it was a pitch on their display of Repashy products. What are the thoughts of the community here? Can you get “bad” calcium supplements? Could my UV bulbs have a manufacturing error and it’s not putting off UV? Or maybe it’s too close, and the harshness is causing problems? I have cuttlefish “bone” in the enclosure, and only run the UV for 2-6 hours a day, but I’m not an expert…

2) The fecal sample had some worms in it, in a quantity that didn’t necessarily concern them, but they did see coccidia parasites. They are apparently common, but can sometimes stunt growth, so they decided to treat Speck (and his 3 friends) with Ponazuril administered orally, in two x two day courses spread out. I did this first course already, which ended Sunday. When the tortoises closed their mouths after injecting it in with a syringe, quite some came out of their mouths and noses, so I am not sure how effective that was….

3) Looking at the plastron, they noted some malformations, which I had assumed had just been an artifact of the umbilical healing. They said that this along with the other problems may just indicate a genetically inferior individual, using the phrase “failure to thrive.”

4) Daily baths might be causing undue stress, and they recommended weekly as long as water was constantly available.

They seemed to know what they were talking about, and everything seemed reasonable. I enacted most of the suggestions as outlined above, and awaited anxiously Wednesday weigh in.

AND

We’ve lost weight…. I’m also concerned that two of the others put on virtually no weight, but at least their carapace seems to be growing…. Any further ideas or concepts, I’m all ears. My SO is already a little peeved that I’ve spent more on a vet visit then the purchase price of the tortoises, so if the recommendation is the UV meter, it’s going to have to be done in secret!

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The_Four_Toed_Edward

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Hello all!

I just wanted to give you all an update. After my last post, I decided to give the carrot bath a whirl, just to make sure the little guy was at least getting enough calories. When weigh in time came and there was no gain, I scheduled a vet appointment. There is one near me that is a member of the Association of Reptile and Amphibian Veterinarians, and seems to specialize in “exotics.” The appointment was last Friday.

After examining the tortoise and taking a fecal sample, these were the possible assessments:

1) It seems like Speck’s body is slightly “bloated,” as if he’s too large for his shell. This may indicate an inability to process calcium, inadequate supplementation, or failure of the UV bulbs. They recommended me to buy a UV meter and prescribed liquid calcium gluconate to administer orally. Since the meters are very pricey, and the T5 setup is brand new from Arcadia, and since one of the tortoises does seem to be growing, I decided to focus on the calcium for the time being. They said that failures of new equipment are rare, but do happen. They also mentioned that “every time they see a calcium deficiency the owner is using ReptiCalcium,” but since that sounded kind of bogus, I assumed it was a pitch on their display of Repashy products. What are the thoughts of the community here? Can you get “bad” calcium supplements? Could my UV bulbs have a manufacturing error and it’s not putting off UV? Or maybe it’s too close, and the harshness is causing problems? I have cuttlefish “bone” in the enclosure, and only run the UV for 2-6 hours a day, but I’m not an expert…

2) The fecal sample had some worms in it, in a quantity that didn’t necessarily concern them, but they did see coccidia parasites. They are apparently common, but can sometimes stunt growth, so they decided to treat Speck (and his 3 friends) with Ponazuril administered orally, in two x two day courses spread out. I did this first course already, which ended Sunday. When the tortoises closed their mouths after injecting it in with a syringe, quite some came out of their mouths and noses, so I am not sure how effective that was….

3) Looking at the plastron, they noted some malformations, which I had assumed had just been an artifact of the umbilical healing. They said that this along with the other problems may just indicate a genetically inferior individual, using the phrase “failure to thrive.”

4) Daily baths might be causing undue stress, and they recommended weekly as long as water was constantly available.

They seemed to know what they were talking about, and everything seemed reasonable. I enacted most of the suggestions as outlined above, and awaited anxiously Wednesday weigh in.

AND

We’ve lost weight…. I’m also concerned that two of the others put on virtually no weight, but at least their carapace seems to be growing…. Any further ideas or concepts, I’m all ears. My SO is already a little peeved that I’ve spent more on a vet visit then the purchase price of the tortoises, so if the recommendation is the UV meter, it’s going to have to be done in secret!

View attachment 386061
I am tagging @Yvonne @zovick and @turtlesteve here.

It seems like Speck’s body is slightly “bloated,” as if he’s too large for his shell. This may indicate an inability to process calcium, inadequate supplementation, or failure of the UV bulbs.
How was this determined? Does your tortoise look swollen/puffy? Tortoise edema/fluid accumulation comes to mind here. It can result form heart or kidney disease. Post photos from the front and back.

Looking at the plastron, they noted some malformations, which I had assumed had just been an artifact of the umbilical healing. They said that this along with the other problems may just indicate a genetically inferior individual, using the phrase “failure to thrive.”
Could you post a photo of how the shell is looking right now? I don't like the "genetically inferior individual" theory.

Daily baths might be causing undue stress, and they recommended weekly as long as water was constantly available.
I wouldn't rely on self soaking even if water is available, especially in their condition which is why I would continue with daily soaks. Have you seen them self soak or drink on their own?
 

MaNaAk

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I am tagging @Yvonne @zovick and @turtlesteve here.


How was this determined? Does your tortoise look swollen/puffy? Tortoise edema/fluid accumulation comes to mind here. It can result form heart or kidney disease. Post photos from the front and back.


Could you post a photo of how the shell is looking right now? I don't like the "genetically inferior individual" theory.


I wouldn't rely on self soaking even if water is available, especially in their condition which is why I would continue with daily soaks. Have you seen them self soak or drink on their own?
It would be interesting to see if @Tom is able to reply.
 

zovick

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I am tagging @Yvonne @zovick and @turtlesteve here.


How was this determined? Does your tortoise look swollen/puffy? Tortoise edema/fluid accumulation comes to mind here. It can result form heart or kidney disease. Post photos from the front and back.


Could you post a photo of how the shell is looking right now? I don't like the "genetically inferior individual" theory.


I wouldn't rely on self soaking even if water is available, especially in their condition which is why I would continue with daily soaks. Have you seen them self soak or drink on their own?
@Devious Rhesus
A bloated appearance can indicate kidney failure. The best calcium supplement is Ultrafine Rep-Cal, and I would not stop doing daily soaks. The good far outweighs any stress, plus after a while, the tortoise gets used to it as part of its daily routine.

You need to be very careful when giving liquid meds orally. The fact that the tortoises expelled the meds from their noses indicates that you probably gave it too quickly. This can cause aspiration of the liquid which can then cause pneumonia.
 

The_Four_Toed_Edward

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A bloated appearance can indicate kidney failure. The best calcium supplement is Ultrafine Rep-Cal, and I would not stop doing daily soaks. The good far outweighs any stress, plus after a while, the tortoise gets used to it as part of its daily routine.
I was thinking some of the vets advice sounded weird....
 

Devious Rhesus

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I am tagging @Yvonne @zovick and @turtlesteve here.


How was this determined? Does your tortoise look swollen/puffy? Tortoise edema/fluid accumulation comes to mind here. It can result form heart or kidney disease. Post photos from the front and back.


Could you post a photo of how the shell is looking right now? I don't like the "genetically inferior individual" theory.


I wouldn't rely on self soaking even if water is available, especially in their condition which is why I would continue with daily soaks. Have you seen them self soak or drink on their own?


The vet determined it by pushing in Speck’s rear leg, and noticing how the flesh at the top bulged out. I’ve attached photos that show that as best as I can, along with his/her plastron.

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The_Four_Toed_Edward

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ryan57

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Rooting for speck! Looks better than that first pic.
 

Sarah2020

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They are so small, fragile and cute 🥰 and then.....they will turn into massive tanks.... Hope they all get better and stronger.
 

Ray--Opo

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The umbilical scar looks ok. If there is not any blood or drainage coming from it. If there is drainage, then you would need to isolate from the others. Don't soak for a few days and and see if the drainage will stop. Again if there is drainage keep clean and dry.
I didn't read all the posts. Has someone mentioned the tortoises will need to be split up? The reason for Speck not gaining weight. Might be because it is being bullied. Also notice if one of the torts. Is peeing or 💩 in the food or water dish.
 
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