Sulcata shell growth question

[LaRue]

Please look at these pics, I'm wondering if this is normal growth. Rocky back middle scute, (one up from bottom scute) was lower then the other slightly pyramid scutes since we found him a few months ago. Today I noticed a side scute growth area is indented, compared to all others. It's hard, his whole shell is hard. This indent is really hard to see in the photos. He was about 7 ozs when we found him, and about 10.5 ozs now. He mostly grazes, but is offered mix spring greens daily. He's outside often, hot humid. Inside is also 78% humidity, and 80 degrees overnight. Also he seems to be producing more urates then before, but I soak him and he pees a lot more too. Could something he grazes on be high in protein? And could it effect his shell? Sorry for another long post, I just want to provide enough info. Thanks for any help.

 

[LaRue]

Here is one more, that shows the one scute lower then the others. Still looks more pronounced in person then the pic shows.

 

[Tom]

I don't see anything out of the ordinary there. It all looks pretty good actually.

 

[LaRue]

I don't see anything out of the ordinary there. It all looks pretty good actually.

Appreciate your help. I honestly had no clue if it was anything, but it is pushed in. So figured here is the best place to find out. Thanks again.

 

[Tom]

Appreciate your help. I honestly had no clue if it was anything, but it is pushed in. So figured here is the best place to find out. Thanks again.

Some times you just get a little funny growth now and then. Lumps and bumps, sunken spots etc… None of them grow perfect all the time.

With the weight gain you've seen and with the way you are housing and caring for him, I would not be concerned.

Remind me where in the world you are? Its not in your little profile box next to your posts. Are there any legumes outside in the grazing area like clover or alfalfa? As a matter of course, if I see heavier that usual urates, I soak longer and more frequently for a while. This is especially important in summer.

 

[LaRue]

Remind me where in the world you are? Its not in your little profile box next to your posts. Are there any legumes outside in the grazing area like clover or alfalfa? As a matter of course, if I see heavier that usual urates, I soak longer and more frequently for a while. This is especially important in summer.

South mississippi, white clover is everywhere in the south. Its in his space some, I try to remove it. Lots in my yard. He does seeks it out. I know this is high in protein. But not something I could get rid, wish I could.

 

[Tom]

South mississippi, white clover is everywhere in the south. Its in his space some, I try to remove it. Lots in my yard. He does seeks it out. I know this is high in protein. But not something I could get rid, wish I could.

That might be where your protein is coming from. Could explain the increased urates.

 

[LaRue]

That might be where your protein is coming from. Could explain the increased urates.

I know too much protein is bad for sulcatas, but not quite sure what it does over time. Or how much is too much. It's everywhere, for years we put weed killer down, but it just comes back, so we gave up. Now with Rocky, can't use weed killer, or fire ant killer. Both are huge problems around here. Thanks for the soaking tip, I will increase to every day for the rest of summer.

 

[Tom]

I know too much protein is bad for sulcatas, but not quite sure what it does over time. Or how much is too much. It's everywhere, for years we put weed killer down, but it just comes back, so we gave up. Now with Rocky, can't use weed killer, or fire ant killer. Both are huge problems around here. Thanks for the soaking tip, I will increase to every day for the rest of summer.

There is no scientific study examining the effects of too much protein on sulcatas, or even how much is "too much". We do know that too much can cause gout and it contributes to the formation of kidney and bladder stones. @deadheadvet or @Will please correct me if I'm wrong here.

Clover isn't that high, and if he's eating clover mixed with grasses, grass hay, leaves, opuntia, Mazuri, etc… it is pretty unlikely that he is getting too much protein because of the clover. Cases of gout are/were usually associated with the old days when people were told to feed them dog or cat food. Or monkey chow. I've not seen or heard of any cases of gout for decades. In the wild, and captivity too, sulcatas will often opportunistically eat carrion. I know of one sulcata tortoise that hunted and ate gophers.

About the ants. You can kill those. You just have to use your products carefully. I have three different ant species that I deal with here, and its a little different strategy for each. I don't have fire ants, so you'll have to experiment with what works best for them. I put Amdro pesticide granules directly into the ants hole and then block that area off to my tortoises with blocks or a puppy pen, or something of that nature. The ants remove the poison and take down into their underground colony within an hour or two and then I take down the blocks. Sometimes the few survivors will try to have a resurgence a few feet away within a couple of days. I've never needed more than two applications. Indoors, I use Terro ant baits. These are basically sugar water and boric acid, so totally safe around other pets and kids. If the fire ants will take it, it will rid you of them for a while. With the damage fire ants can do, I would not leave them be. I'd find a way to get rid of them.

 

[jockma]

A user on here (can't remember who) used diatomaceous earth to kill off ants in the yard and was successful. It may be too wet where you are to try it, though.

 

[Pearly]

Hi there! All i see is a gorgeous shell of a very pretty tortoise. Both of mine have bumps like that. That's just their very unique way that they are. Both of mine have bumps and dents like that

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

Nutritional studies for tortoises are primarily for wild populations of Gopherus and Testudo. That is people look at blood values and compare tortoise blood values from one vegetation zone with another, even if it is based on altitude or north versus south facing slopes. or tortoise population in natural vegetation versus invasive. There were a few much deeper studies here and there, one researcher did much work with Yellowfoots and Redfoots, with both wild and captive diets and a "digestive" apparatus that looked at the nutrition that ought to be in the food stuffs eaten.

So, I don't know of a study that looks at a few things all together like protein content on a varying scale of intake alongside a varying scale of water intake or fiber intake. That is the trinity of it. Nutrients (including protein), water, and gut mobility (fiber).

Access to abundant water and some food stuffs that have a high water content are not exactly the same thing, but lets figure they are. So lots of water will mitigate too high a protein, whatever that level may be. And then there is gut transit time and mobility, which regulates how long it takes for the food to travel through the small intestines then the large, and in at least some species the movement of a bolus of food back from the large intestines to the small.

Tortoise's shell and a relatively low level of activity make their gut transit time a weird thing, There diaphragm is more or less none existent, when they breath the work is much more passive than active. So lung inflation and deflation does not stimulate the intestines much, like it can in so many other animals. The lungs are loose bags that sit ontop of all the other "guts". Tortoises are pretty sedentary so they don't have a torso like in a non shelled animal sense that might also move things along their intestines. Leg movement might help, when at rest their legs move in and out with breathing, or perhaps the leg movement is the same as the work a diaphragm might provide in animals without shells. That is I don't know if the leg movement is done to help draw air in and push it out, or if the legs move because of the air being drawn in or out. Maybe both depending on some other factors.

The point being food just gets pushed along by the peristaltic activity of muscles that encumference the intestine, and they are pretty whimpy at that. So a food portion without fiber may end up sitting in the intestines too long as they tortoise by it's very nature does not have a way to push it along. That fiber allows those whimpy intestines muscle to pack the food into a bolus move the food along. With high fiber and plenty of water, I think the acceptable range of protein is much greater than if they are restricted on water and fiber and that higher protein just sits their in their gut.

I get it that may not be the most satisfying answer, but you have to play "after school special" in your minds eye or "magic bus" and pretend you are in a submarine in the tortoise gut to envision all this and it might begin to make sense.

Maybe think of the food as a load of wash, clothes can be very soiled, but they will come clean if there is enough soap (non fiber foods), water (water the universal lubricant and catalyst or nearly all digestive activities) , and agitation (fiber and physical movement of muscles around the intestine) the clothes come clean (food moves along and contributes nutrients to the tortoise).

There is this thing called "law of minimums" (click for a wiki) that basically says most things are restricted by whatever resource is in the shortest supply. Once the limited thing is used up, extra of other things languish for lack of use.

So what that means in this context is you should try and have all things as plentiful as possible and let the tortoise sort it out. Plenty of water, a range of foods with fiber and protein. Protein too can be the limited resource, but if in over-abundance relative to water and fiber, it can cause a problem.

Part of the balance is water and fiber.

 

[deadheadvet]

I think improper protein would likely cause more issues. Obviously too much Calcium is not a good thing and too little calcium the same. There is better nutrition when the Calcium/ phosphorus is in a good ratio. Sometimes too much Kale, Mustard,Spinach will provoke issues. Obviously we are trying to simulate a diet that these animals feed on in the wild. Close to impossible since we have them in captivity. Depending on the time of year, more weeds and grass would be better. Mine are on Bermuda all summer long and get greens and Tortoise diet as a supplement. We have to remember that Sun plays a role in metabolism and absorption of Calcium. So best advice is to leave the bigger animals out as long as possible, and ,make sure youngsters get some sun a few times per week.

 

[BrianWI]

My sulcata has a spot that looks pushed in a bit as well, by her spit scutes. Just a "flaw". Nutrition likely has no part in it, we all just have our flaws.

 

[LaRue]

we all just have our flaws.

This is so true. But everyone- thanks for your incredible wealth of knowledge. You know I can read something on the net and not realize it's outdated or just wrong. Here I get a wealth of current information from people who are actually housing and tending to tortoises too. Poor rocky would be in far worst shape if it wasn't for everyone who answer my sily post, and all the other newbie post. so thanks.

 

[cmacusa3]

One thing I will also throw out there is, my Sulcata's shell was perfect for the first year and a half, then I started to notice a few indentions and a slope on the back. Come to find out this is just a trademark of the Mali style sulcatas. I can't tell from that picture but this change could also be what you could be seeing.

 

[LaRue]

One thing I will also throw out there is, my Sulcata's shell was perfect for the first year and a half, then I started to notice a few indentions and a slope on the back. Come to find out this is just a trademark of the Mali style sulcatas. I can't tell from that picture but this change could also be what you could be seeing.

When I first started looking on this forum I found most of the sulcatas to be much darker then this one. At first I thought Rocky must be in bad shape, poor growth and such, lol, talk about knowing nothing. Then I realized there are different variations, I guess the same for any living thing.