Swollen neck

[rachellain]

Hello all,
Just looking for a bit of advice from people with more experience than myself really.
As a family we were given a (I believe) Mediterranean spur thighed tortoise called Samantha about 35 years ago when her owners didn't want her anymore. Her previous owners had her as children and they were off to uni so we guess she's over 50 years old now.
Starting in 2015 Sam had a sudden swollen neck. As typical with animals it happened on a Sunday so an emergency costly trip to the vets and injections were given (which we struggled through giving ourselves) baytril and metacam injections for a couple of weeks and all was good again.
Jump to 2018 and swelling occurs again, and again in 2019, same treatment given and clears up after a week both times.

Then we get to 2020 and the vet wants to investigate further and although ultrascan doesn't show a problem with eggs she wanted to spay Sam. She detailed how it would be a long recovery and possible tube feeding and as a family we just weren't up for putting her through this at her age. Marbocyl injections were given for a couple of weeks which solved the swelling but the vet was really pressurizing us to have Sam spayed.
We put it off as this was September and she was due to hibernate soon.
2021 no swelling occurred but today Sam is swollen around her neck again. The vet can fit us in tomorrow morning so hopefully get more injections and not be forced into a big operation.

My question is, does anyone know or have heard about swollen necks being caused by a female needing to be spayed? I can't find any evidence online.

Any further advice or information as to why this swelling keeps recurring would be helpful.

I'll attach a photo of her today.

Thank you in advance.
Rachel

 

[wellington]

Boy, I can't help you but will try to get some of our members that might be able too.
I don't thunk you should let her be spayed. I can't think of any reason the two would be related.
Sadly a lot of vets no nothing about tortoises.
@Yvonne G
@Tom

 

[rachellain]

Boy, I can't help you but will try to get some of our members that might be able too.
I don't thunk you should let her be spayed. I can't think of any reason the two would be related.
Sadly a lot of vets no nothing about tortoises.
@Yvonne G
@Tom

Hi, thank you for your reply and tagging.

The vet we saw is supposedly the reptile expert at the practice. I couldn't help but get the impression that she wanted to do a spay for experience as she said she'd only done one before.

When I've looked up things online I can only find it may be renal related. It does seem to happen when the weather is hot, like what we have had the last week. We try to bathe Sam so that she can drink but always hard to tell if she has, and then she just wants out of that bath!

It always cleared up with antibiotics in the past. I can't see that something related to needing to be spayed would do that, but I don't really have a clue.

Rachel

 

[zolasmum]

Hi, thank you for your reply and tagging.

The vet we saw is supposedly the reptile expert at the practice. I couldn't help but get the impression that she wanted to do a spay for experience as she said she'd only done one before.

When I've looked up things online I can only find it may be renal related. It does seem to happen when the weather is hot, like what we have had the last week. We try to bathe Sam so that she can drink but always hard to tell if she has, and then she just wants out of that bath!

It always cleared up with antibiotics in the past. I can't see that something related to needing to be spayed would do that, but I don't really have a clue.

Rachel

It does seem weird that the vet would want to do this, and I think you are right that she wants the experience, and it would be cruel to put your girl through it unless it were really needed. I expect that you know that tortoises absorb fluid through their cloaca, so even if she isn't drinking, it would be worth keeping her in the water as long as you can.
Best wishes
Angie (from Devon )

 

[TaraMaiden]

This from the Tortoise Trust Website:

​

"Swelling, flesh has a puffy appearance. Edema (see above). Possible causes: If arises suddenly, could be related to renal or pulmonary disease. If long-term without other symptoms, may indicate obesity and over-feeding."

Nowhere, anywhere, can I find ANY reference WHATSOEVER to spaying a tortoise to prevent this kind of oedema.
Ask your vet for PRECISE reasons for spaying, and where she got this information.
Always, always challenge medical interventions which will eat a hole in your wallet.

 

[wellington]

I guess if the past treatments have helped her then that might be the best treatment
However I would let her know it's a stern NO on spaying her.
I would also have blood work done for renal failure signs other than the occasional swelling
Also keep soaking her no matter how much she may want out.

 

[rachellain]

It does seem weird that the vet would want to do this, and I think you are right that she wants the experience, and it would be cruel to put your girl through it unless it were really needed. I expect that you know that tortoises absorb fluid through their cloaca, so even if she isn't drinking, it would be worth keeping her in the water as long as you can.
Best wishes
Angie (from Devon )

Thank you for your reply. I agree, it's not a simple op and I can't see why it would help my tortoise. For sure we keep her in the water tub for a while, she just moves round a lot and attempts to climb out but the walls are just that bit too high

 

[rachellain]

This from the Tortoise Trust Website:

View attachment 347591

​

"Swelling, flesh has a puffy appearance. Edema (see above). Possible causes: If arises suddenly, could be related to renal or pulmonary disease. If long-term without other symptoms, may indicate obesity and over-feeding."

Nowhere, anywhere, can I find ANY reference WHATSOEVER to spaying a tortoise to prevent this kind of oedema.
Ask your vet for PRECISE reasons for spaying, and where she got this information.
Always, always challenge medical interventions which will eat a hole in your wallet.

Thank you, I also found that reference online. It happens overnight so I know it's not the obesity reason, which leads me down the renal path.
I'll stand my ground tomorrow and ask lots more questions if the vet pushes spaying again.

 

[rachellain]

I guess if the past treatments have helped her then that might be the best treatment
However I would let her know it's a stern NO on spaying her.
I would also have blood work done for renal failure signs other than the occasional swelling
Also keep soaking her no matter how much she may want out.

I will definitely stand my ground on the no spaying. I feel newly supported in my thinking after posting in here. Thank you for all your help. Bloods is a good idea, I'll ask the vet tomorrow. Good news is that Sam is still eating and the swelling doesn't seem worse since this morning

 

[TaraMaiden]

....we keep her in the water tub for a while, she just moves round a lot and attempts to climb out but the walls are just that bit too high

My Hermann does that too, and also can't escape for the same reason... My Spur-thigh on the other hand, positively basks in her custom-made spa... I almost think she expects a massage and mani/pedicure afterwards!

 

[rachellain]

My Hermann does that too, and also can't escape for the same reason... My Spur-thigh on the other hand, positively basks in her custom-made spa... I almost think she expects a massage and mani/pedicure afterwards!

Haha! That would be cute to see

 

[MenagerieGrl]

So, I agree with the consensus, A big NO! to the Spay, but that being said, ask the Vet to explain how the two could be remotely related. And Blood work would be a necessity right now. It could possibly be that her hormones are "out of wack" thus causing her to retain water, But still, it would be explanation please!

 

[wellington]

My Hermann does that too, and also can't escape for the same reason... My Spur-thigh on the other hand, positively basks in her custom-made spa... I almost think she expects a massage and mani/pedicure afterwards!

And! get out the files and lotions and massage those feet. Its ruff hauling your house around on your back 🤣

 

[rachellain]

So, I agree with the consensus, A big NO! to the Spay, but that being said, ask the Vet to explain how the two could be remotely related. And Blood work would be a necessity right now. It could possibly be that her hormones are "out of wack" thus causing her to retain water, But still, it would be explanation please!

Thank you for your reply. I'll definitely probe for more info and ask for bloods to be done

 

[TaraMaiden]

And! get out the files and lotions and massage those feet. Its ruff hauling your house around on your back 🤣

Jeesh, you never mentioned she'd ask for a facial as well! Boy does she need anti-wrinkle cream!

 

[rachellain]

Update after seeing the vet today... She said that Sam definitely has a respiratory infection so the antibiotic injections have begun. The vet then said she wanted to scan her to see if her egg situation has changed, to which I said there was no point as we had decided to not spay her. The vet didn't really push for it other than to say she's performed 4 more now and all work successfully. I wish now I had asked what were those tortoises spayed for, might ask on Sunday when I go back.
I asked if bloods would show anything up and the vet agreed to do them so they are going off today to the lab. She did mention that she took some fluid at the same time which should be clear and it's bright orange which could suggest liver problem. I added to have that sent off for analysis also.
I'm back to the vets Sunday for the next injection and hoping the lab results will be back early next week. We will see what they show up.
Poor Sam wasn't very happy, pooped and weed at the vets (but at least that's all working) and she thrashed around in her box on the way home. She's wandering around outside now so didn't grumpily go to bed like I expected.

 

[zolasmum]

I'm glad you made progress about the blood work and no spaying. Poor Sam - it isn't much fun for her - or for you - I do hope the injection will help quickly .Does Sam eat well - I was just wondering about the orange fluid you mentioned - could it be related to diet? What colour are her urates ?
Angie

 

[rachellain]

I'm glad you made progress about the blood work and no spaying. Poor Sam - it isn't much fun for her - or for you - I do hope the injection will help quickly .Does Sam eat well - I was just wondering about the orange fluid you mentioned - could it be related to diet? What colour are her urates ?
Angie

It does appear as though the swelling has already gone down, I'll attach a recent photo.
She does always seem to eat well. She refused any tortoise pellet food we've ever offered though, so has veg and fruit and plants she finds in the garden like dandelions and for some reason she loves a thistle! Her urates are always white, solid poop is black. Hope that's ok...

 

[zolasmum]

It does appear as though the swelling has already gone down, I'll attach a recent photo.
She does always seem to eat well. She refused any tortoise pellet food we've ever offered though, so has veg and fruit and plants she finds in the garden like dandelions and for some reason she loves a thistle! Her urates are always white, solid poop is black. Hope that's ok...

I'm so glad the injection is working. I just mentioned about her urates in case there was anything unusual to see - but obviously not.
She has a lovely shell for her age - well, for any age really - she must have been well looked after always.
I hope you will get on ok on Sunday.
Best wishes from Angie

 

[rachellain]

I'm so glad the injection is working. I just mentioned about her urates in case there was anything unusual to see - but obviously not.
She has a lovely shell for her age - well, for any age really - she must have been well looked after always.
I hope you will get on ok on Sunday.
Best wishes from Angie

Ah, thank you. I'll definitely let you know the outcome of her test results 😊