The smooth mentality

[Guggie]

Ok. Just so you know, I'm not trolling with this post; I'm not trying to start fights; I just had a thought today and figured I'd ask it.

We on the forum are all trying our best to keep our tortoises smooth. We are dipping them, restricting certain foods, keeping them in humid areas, all in the quest to keep them smooth - and we're all doing a damn good job. But how do we know that a smooth tortoise is truly a healthy tortoise? Is it possible that a tortoise with pyramiding (not MBD but normal pyramiding) is actually healthier than a smooth tortoise?

I know one of the arguments will be "in nature, one rarely sees pyramiding." But could that be because in nature they are lacking something that they get in captivity? Something that actually makes them more healthy?

I guess the reason I thought of this is because at one point people must have thought that pyramids = a healthy tortoise. Before forums, I'm sure there were people using Morse Code or teletype machines to tell their friends how unhealthy their smooth tortoises were, and that they better get some peaks going soon.

I imagine there's a scientific reason that we all think smooth is better; I just thought I'd ask the experts. Thanks!

 

[Redstrike]

You're right that our assumption of smoothness = healthy may be incorrect, but I'm skeptical that a smooth tortoise would be less healthy than one that has pyramiding. A smooth carapace is what we see in wild tortoises, and no matter how hard we try, it is difficult to mimic our tortoises natural habitats. The smooth shell gives us some form of tangibility on health, it's just a morphological feature that we can strive for, keeping the assumption that this has some indication on good health (I think it does). These animals have evolved in specific regions with climatic and food resource parameters that we can only scratch the surface of. Using wild animals and smooth growth as an index or template to good health is, I think, very reasonable.

 

[dmarcus]

I don't think that all pyramiding is bad, but we do see time after time that tortoises with bad pyramiding have some form of health issue. It also does not mean that being smooth is a guarantee that the tortoise will be healthy. Most CB tortoises that we see with smooth shells are very well taking care of and the owner is doing all the things he/she can to raise a healthy tortoise and the fact that the tortoise is smooth is a plus.

I am not sure about holding back certain foods thing, the only restrctions I have seen as far as foods go, are those that have been determined to be toxic or just bad for tortoises.

 

[Guggie]

I am not sure about holding back certain foods thing, the only restrctions I have seen as far as foods go, are those that have been determined to be toxic or just bad for tortoises.

I was thinking about protein being bad for pyramiding; that may be a mistaken recollection on my part.

 

[dmarcus]

I am not sure about holding back certain foods thing, the only restrctions I have seen as far as foods go, are those that have been determined to be toxic or just bad for tortoises.

I was thinking about protein being bad for pyramiding; that may be a mistaken recollection on my part.

Okay I see now, I think a protein only diet may be bad when it comes to pyramiding, but with a varied diet it shouldn't be to big of a factor..

 

[Madkins007]

Good question!

Even mild pyramiding demonstrates an unnatural development of the shell bones- they distort into bumps and hills, and are not as strong, thick, or dense as healthy bone. This demonstrates a lack of essential elements- calcium, phosphorous, vitamin D/UVB, iron, magnesium, sleep, warmth, exercise, water/moisture/hydration, and so forth.

Tortoises that progress beyond mild pyramiding almost always show other signs of metabolic bone diseases- soft or sunken shells, weak limbs, hind limb paralysis, rubber jaw, etc. If pyramiding were beneficial, then we could assume that letting it progress would help, but as the earlier line shows, things get worse for them.

MILD pyramiding does not seem to be harmful, at least in part because it suggests that things were fixed before it got worse. Mild pyramiding is also almost inevitable in the more northerly climates as natural light, UVB, fresh healthy food, etc. is in shorter supply.

 

[Guggie]

OK Mark - That's the 2nd great answer you've given me. (The first was on dome sizes.) Thanks very much for giving this some thought and taking the time to answer my question. As I said, I'm in agreement with the rest of the forum that smooth is better, but was wondering in the back of my mind how right I was. I figured there was a scientific answer, and it seems I was right.

 

[cherylim]

I don't have anything else to add, but it was something I was thinking about this afternoon as my mind wandered - the concept of humans as pets in the same way tortoises are.

My little finger nail is growing a bit strange at the moment - the white tip has grown with a wave shape, rather than straight. I guess I got distracted today and wondered what my fingernail would say in the way a mark on a tortoise's shell might, if I were a pet. Would an owner spend so long trying to feed me the perfect diet to ensure my fingernails and toenails were perfectly smooth and flat? Yes, it's definitely the weirdest thought I've had all day.

 

[Jacqui]

I try to look at mimicking what the wild tortoise of whatever species it might, how do they look and grow. I think we put way to much value on looks alone. With that said, mild pyramiding is not a big thing to me, it's the much more severe cases you see. One thing that bothers me more, is how quickly we are growing these animals up to maturity. I personally think we need to slow down and take more of a cue from mother nature. I find it funny which parts of the way a tortoise should develop (according to Mother Nature) we take very seriously to heart, but yet we completely ignore other parts of this same picture.

 

[Tom]

Great question Ryan. I saw this thread this morning, but I haven't had time to respond properly until now.

Mark sort of started what I wanted to say, but I just want to emphasize that it is mal-formed bone under there that causes the scutes to stick up like that. The scute material is only a thin layer covering the bone. There was a thread a while back showing the difference between pyramided bone and correctly grown bone. The pyramided bone is very porous. Its honeycombed and not dense. Properly grown shell bone is very dense, hard and relatively thin. Pyramided bone is NOT healthy bone. For at least two decades everyone has grown them improperly and only recently are we learning how to do it right and having some success. There is still much to learn. The Austrian study proved that protein and faster growth has little to nothing to do with pyramiding, which is kind of funny, because that is what they set out to prove with the study.

Mark, I have to respectfully disagree with the assertion that pyramiding is inevitable in the more Northern climates. We have a lot of members who are growing some smooth, healthy tortoises up there in the "frozen North". If the right conditions are present, it should not matter where in the country it is done. My 70-75 degree, air-conditioned/heated house should produce the same results as yours. Since so many members are able to grow smooth torts in Northern areas, I really wonder how much all of the factors you listed matter. Sunlight for example. Kristina lives in Michigan, uses NO artificial UV lights and raises very smooth torts of several species, just as one example. Which factors play what roles is still not decided in my mind. I see a lot of conflicting info out there in the world and there is still so much more to learn.

Jacqui, I have a respectful disagreement for you too. I've never grown torts faster than last years EOP babies. Trey has broken the 1000 gram barrier in 15 months. They are also the healthiest and smoothest torts I have ever personally raised by any standard of measurement. When I pick them up it feels like they have been eating large quantities of lead, they are so heavy and dense. While I agree that they do grow faster in captivity, I don't think it is a bad thing, as long as the right conditions are present. In my view, captivity is all the good things about growing in the wild, but with the bad things removed. We all know that our torts are strong and adaptable to a wide range of conditions. Certainly they can SURVIVE harsh periods in the wild, but the y do not thrive and grow during these periods. The merely do what ever they have to do to survive while the patiently wait for better conditions to arrive. In captivity, we remove the freezing cold days and the scorching hot days through various means in our enclosures. We remove the food-less dry periods. We remove the parasites, both internal and external. We remove the stress of predation and competition for resources... In essence we strive to give them optimal conditions, while removing all the hardships of the wild. In the wild they are forced to endure a whole onslaught of obstacles that slow down their growth.

It does not make sense to me to intentionally inflict hardships upon them, just because they are able to survive them. I see no problem with "faster than wild" growth rates since the conditions I provide are better than what they would endure in the wild. And I don't see a conflict with providing the necessary elements for "normal" or "wild simulating" shell growth, while omitting many of the hardships of wild living from their captive routine. Love you. Don't be mad...

... and just for the record, the only reason looks matter to me in the case of pyramiding is that, looks are a clear and easy indicator of the state of the underlying bone and its health. I own several pyramided torts and I love them despite their "un-natural" look, but its does remind of all of my past mistakes each time I look at them, and why I must continue trying to help others figure out what took me so long to figure out.

Thanks again Ryan for starting a great conversation.

 

[Nay]

I also love seeing a different question/topic, brought to mind.Thanks Ryan
Tom I agree with also with your last paragraph, (not that I disagree with the others),
When I look at my two large pyramided Red Foots(acquired that way!) I think , ugh, what did they endure to get that way? But the funniest thing is, I had someone visit recently and they loved the look of them! (course they don't really know torts, but I thought it was quite amusing they thought it was cool looking!)
Nay

 

[Madkins007]

Tom, my comment about the northerly torts was hastily stated. It is certainly possible to produce smooth torts pretty much anywhere... assuming one understands and compensates for the conditions. UV in Michigan in the summer should still be OK, but get up into Canada and it can get iffier. My 'outdoor season' this year was less than 2.5 months this year, which I am sure has an impact on overall health- they get so much more light, space, and natural diet out there... but many people further up have even less outdoor time.

Food choices here in Omaha in the winter are limited- fewer items, less volume of each, higher prices, poorer quality, etc. and we are a pretty decent sized city. I cannot image trying to get good foods in the winter in Gimli, Manitoba (we spent a great vacation there one summer, which is why it comes to mind!)

Kristina does not use supplemental UV, but does use outside time. In theory, this charges the fat deposits and they can live off them for some time. The question I have yet to find an answer to is 'how long can an animal run off the fat/liver stores of vitamins'? I am also not convinced we understand the importance of UV fully yet. Studies are suggesting that it plays a role in preventing cancers, diabetes, etc. and plays a role in reproduction, sleep cycles, seasonal responses, etc. One breeder I know of does not supplement his young torts with any significant forms of D, and claims great results from his care regimen, but has mediocre or less reproductive success.Are these issues related? I assume so, but cannot prove it.

I sort of ticks me off that people have kept tortoises since ancient Greece or earlier, and we still know so little about them!

 

[Jacqui]

Jacqui, I have a respectful disagreement for you too. I've never grown torts faster than last years EOP babies. Trey has broken the 1000 gram barrier in 15 months. They are also the healthiest and smoothest torts I have ever personally raised by any standard of measurement. When I pick them up it feels like they have been eating large quantities of lead, they are so heavy and dense. While I agree that they do grow faster in captivity, I don't think it is a bad thing, as long as the right conditions are present. In my view, captivity is all the good things about growing in the wild, but with the bad things removed. We all know that our torts are strong and adaptable to a wide range of conditions. Certainly they can SURVIVE harsh periods in the wild, but the y do not thrive and grow during these periods. The merely do what ever they have to do to survive while the patiently wait for better conditions to arrive. In captivity, we remove the freezing cold days and the scorching hot days through various means in our enclosures. We remove the food-less dry periods. We remove the parasites, both internal and external. We remove the stress of predation and competition for resources... In essence we strive to give them optimal conditions, while removing all the hardships of the wild. In the wild they are forced to endure a whole onslaught of obstacles that slow down their growth.

It does not make sense to me to intentionally inflict hardships upon them, just because they are able to survive them. I see no problem with "faster than wild" growth rates since the conditions I provide are better than what they would endure in the wild. And I don't see a conflict with providing the necessary elements for "normal" or "wild simulating" shell growth, while omitting many of the hardships of wild living from their captive routine. Love you. Don't be mad...

Just because we CAN do something doesn't mean we should. Nor Tom, does just because something SEEMS to look good, does not mean it is. I do not consider making conditions for them as natural as possible giving them "intentionally inflicting hardships" upon them. I fear that down the road in a generation or three, you will start to see the damage being caused by what amounts to superfeeding/growing your tortoises. If I use something like just because a girl at 10 CAN have a baby, it doesn't means she should or in the long run that it is good for her or the child, folks will just say, yeah but that is not a tortoise. IF I point to the problems snake folks found with the powerfeeding, then folks will just say, yeah but those are only reptiles, not tortoises. The problem is, you will not see the damage as quickly as with those other creatures.

Nature had a plan and created these animals to live long, SLOW lives. Why does man think he is God and has the right to play with something that has worked for more years then man has been around? You and I will disagree on this, as on so many other points of tortoise husbandry. I firmly believe someday you will be the proud owner of tortoises that could not survive in the wild. Animals that will never be able to really be tortoises, only man remade wanna be tortoises that are a weaker, but perhaps a prettier tortoises.

 

[Neal]

To the OP, good thought provoking thread, I wonder too if a smooth or pyramided tortoise is more healthy than the other. In terms of factual determinations or scientific reasoning...I don't know how anyone could say that a smoother tortoise is indeed healthier. I get that it "seems" like they are healthier, but if in fact that is the case...how could we conclusively determine such a thing?

I'm with Jacqui in that we may be putting too much value on looks and appearance...specifically referring to pyramiding. Pyramiding does occur in the wild, more apparently with certain species such as East African Leopard tortoises (as we in the US know them). And, while pyramiding in the wild does exist, I have yet to see photos or any indication of wild tortoises with extreme cases of pyramiding as we see in captive specimens. I'm sure there are cases like that in the wild, but it's the severe deformed pyramiding that I think is more detrimental to a tortoises health than the minor, and arguable natural, type pyramiding we see. Which brings up another point...different types/stages of pyramiding...but that might be a whole 'nother topic.

So, my answer to your question of a smoother tortoise actually being healthier? who knows...in my opinion all we can do at this point is learn good husbandry practices from our own experiences and from others, and hope that by providing that, our tortoises are as healthy as they can be.

 

[Guggie]

You guys missed this part of my original post.

...I'm not trying to start fights...

I respect both of your points of view. I don't know which approach is best, so I do what anyone would do - I look at both points of view and chose to adopt those parts I think make most sense to me. Both of you have much more experience in this than me, and you both produce beautiful animals.

Even though I don't know if Jacqui is right or Tom is right, I don't think it really matters. What does matter is that we all care a whole lot about our pets, and are more enthusiastic and dedicated than most pet owners I know or have ever heard of. None of us would purposely hurt our guyzos, and the way they grow up will show us what works and what doesn't. Until then, we belong to this forum to discuss, debate, and even argue about our opinions, so we can all learn. That's what this forum is for.

So - stop fighting before I send you both to bed without dinner!!!

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To the OP, good thought provoking thread, I wonder too if a smooth or pyramided tortoise is more healthy than the other. In terms of factual determinations or scientific reasoning...I don't know how anyone could say that a smoother tortoise is indeed healthier. I get that it "seems" like they are healthier, but if in fact that is the case...how could we conclusively determine such a thing?

I'm with Jacqui in that we may be putting too much value on looks and appearance...specifically referring to pyramiding. Pyramiding does occur in the wild, more apparently with certain species such as East African Leopard tortoises (as we in the US know them). And, while pyramiding in the wild does exist, I have yet to see photos or any indication of wild tortoises with extreme cases of pyramiding as we see in captive specimens. I'm sure there are cases like that in the wild, but it's the severe deformed pyramiding that I think is more detrimental to a tortoises health than the minor, and arguable natural, type pyramiding we see. Which brings up another point...different types/stages of pyramiding...but that might be a whole 'nother topic.

So, my answer to your question of a smoother tortoise actually being healthier? who knows...in my opinion all we can do at this point is learn good husbandry practices from our own experiences and from others, and hope that by providing that, our tortoises are as healthy as they can be.

Well put. My torts are not perfectly smooth, but they look pretty damn good, especially for a first time owner. I'm learning as I go, using this forum as a tool, and bringing up topics like this to start fights .... I mean to make people think.

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Hey - unrelated question, what does OP stand for?

 

[Neal]

OP = Original Poster

 

[Guggie]

Thanks!

 

[Jacqui]

You guys missed this part of my original post.

...I'm not trying to start fights...

I respect both of your points of view. I don't know which approach is best, so I do what anyone would do - I look at both points of view and chose to adopt those parts I think make most sense to me. Both of you have much more experience in this than me, and you both produce beautiful animals.

Even though I don't know if Jacqui is right or Tom is right, I don't think it really matters. What does matter is that we all care a whole lot about our pets, and are more enthusiastic and dedicated than most pet owners I know or have ever heard of. None of us would purposely hurt our guyzos, and the way they grow up will show us what works and what doesn't. Until then, we belong to this forum to discuss, debate, and even argue about our opinions, so we can all learn. That's what this forum is for.

So - stop fighting before I send you both to bed without dinner!!!

---

Well put. My torts are not perfectly smooth, but they look pretty damn good, especially for a first time owner. I'm learning as I go, using this forum as a tool, and bringing up topics like this to start fights .... I mean to make people think.

---

Hey - unrelated question, what does OP stand for?

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We are not fighting. We are both simply debating the issue, which is what people do who are seeing something from more then one point of view. Fighting would be if we would start calling each other names, or losing what we were trying to express in a manner where our own "winning"as the only thing of matter, or belittling each other. I think Tom and I both respect each other, but realize we have totally different views on many subjects. Part of thinking is the give and take of opinions and trying to help each other see our point of view, while we try to atleast see where the other person is coming from.

So relax, believe me, if a fight starts in here you will know it.

 

[Tom]

Jacqui wait... what?

Where have I ever said I am "powerfeeding" anything? I feed a good varied diet in reasonable quantities. My tortoises used to grow as slow as everyone else's, but due to the "wet" routine and the health benefits of hydration, they just grow faster now. I don't feed them any more than I've ever fed tortoises. I do not think I am "God", but isn't what ALL of us are doing, by keeping torts in captivity, "playing with what has worked for more years than we have been around?" What is it in my routine that you think is going to make for "...tortoises that could not survive in the wild. Animals that will never be able to really be tortoises, only man remade wanna be tortoises that are a weaker, but perhaps a prettier tortoises."? My adults and juveniles live outside in the sun year round and have temp controlled shelters to escape the extremes of temperature that they would not encounter in the wild. They graze wild year round and I supplement them during the dry times, where in the wild they would have nothing or very little. My babies spend most days outside in dirt pens that I water to grow local weeds and grass and a few grocery store varieties that I planted with limited success. How does grazing on their own in the sun make them "weaker man remade wannabes"?

Your rebuttal post is a bit shocking to me. I had no idea that you thought so little of my tortoise keeping skills.
Where have you and I ever disagreed about husbandry points in the past?
What in my routine would I have to change to make it so my tortoises are able to "survive in the wild" in three generations? What, feed less? I did that. Now I have 13 year old 50-60 pound adult males... that still pyramided.
In order to grow them slower, as they do in the wild, should I not feed them during the hot dry summers? This is what happens in nature. How is that not inflicting hardship on them? In nature hundreds or thousands die for every one that survives to adulthood. Is this what you are advocating we mimic? I'm pretty sure not, but I don't understand what is is you think I'm doing that makes my animals so unfit for long term survival.

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We are not fighting. We are both simply debating the issue, which is what people do who are seeing something from more then one point of view. Fighting would be if we would start calling each other names, or losing what we were trying to express in a manner where our own "winning"as the only thing of matter, or belittling each other. I think Tom and I both respect each other, but realize we have totally different views on many subjects. Part of thinking is the give and take of opinions and trying to help each other see our point of view, while we try to atleast see where the other person is coming from.

Yes I DO respect you, a lot, but no, I had no idea that we had totally different views on many subjects. Somehow I missed that.

 

[Tom]

Jacqui, these were not rhetorical questions. You made some very bold, very negative, and very personal assertions here. I and the people who keep their torts similar to mine would like to know what it is you think we are doing that will cause all these negative things you predicted.