three Herman's sex id's, please

[Tccarolina]

I just received three Hermann's tortoises that were labeled as captive bred in Europe. They are supposed to be 1 male and 2 females.
I'm not sure what I have. Number 2 looks definitely female number 3 looks probably female, and if one is a male, I would have to guess it must be number 1.
#1 4 1/8"

#2 4"

#3 4 1/4"

 

[Ozric]

Hi, sorry I'm not good at sexing them. EgyptianDanny or HermanniChris are the people you want to sex these Hermanns - they do look in here often and I'm sure they will sex them for you.

These tortoises look to have incredibly smooth growth for captive bred animals. Its not easy to achieve this.

They are lovely!!

 

[egyptiandan]

A little deja vu here
They are all female Steve and here goes with the subspecies
#1 T.h.boettgeri
#2 T.h.hercegovinensis
#3 T.h.boettgeri

Danny

 

[Tccarolina]

Danny, thanks for the reply!
Ozric,
I'm not convinced they are captive-bred. They seem to have too perfect of growth, and look pretty old to profitably farm-raise. On the otherhand, they do seem to all be the same age. They look like they are all in their 8th year.
#1 is showing some fresh growth, so she might be in her 7th year.
But, on the other hand, I just noticed the last three rings of growth are all large for all three, almost equally large. They look like they have lived in the same conditions the last three years, which would fit if they've been raised together for 3 years. If they were wild-caught, they should have different growth rates, unless they were collected together in the same area. One is a different subspecies, so that is unlikely.

I don't know. They are nice animals though, aren't they!
Steve

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Whoops,
#2 looks like she is only 7 years old, and maybe not the same in ring counts. I accidentally looked at # 3's picture twice in the last post. So, maybe they are wild caught.

 

[Ozric]

Steve they are very attractive tortoises no doubt about that!

 

[oswego tort lover]

i agree all three are females but i see or think i see inguinal scutes on all three making them all testudo boettgeri .............ed

 

[Phoenix]

Hi!

I'm not sure we can affirm N2 is hercegovinensis
To me, inguinals are not a suficient caracteristic to be sure of the origin.

Nice torts, by the way!
They are very bright

 

[terrypin]

male
female
female.
terry

 

[GBtortoises]

I have to agrees with Terry. Based on the anterior of shape of the anal scutes tortoise #1 is very likely a male, even though he may not have the typically large tail for a male Hermann's of his age.

I think #1 is a Boettgeri male, #2 is probably a Dalmatian female and #3 is definitely a Boettgeri female.

 

[oswego tort lover]

what is it on n2 that would point to a dalmation hermanni rather than an eastern hermanni. dan ? GB?.....i agree one male two and three female...

 

[Tccarolina]

They all three have inguinal scutes.
Here are all three.

---

Sorry, the order is different in this collage.
Number 2, the disputed one, is number 3 in the collage.
Number 1 is number 2 in the collage.
Number 3 is number 1 in the collage.

Number 1 and 2 in the collage have 4 toes on the front feet.
Number 3 in the collage has 5 toes on the front feet.
Here are all three.

I have to say this reminds me a little of palm reading. I've looked at guides and tons of id posts, but I don't see what you guys apparently see with certainty.
Steve

 

[oswego tort lover]

all three having inguinal scutes is what make's them testudo boettgeri , the number of toes on the front feet can be 4 or 5 for all three western , dalmation , and eastern hermanni.........

 

[HermanniChris]

They are definitely all female. As for subspecies...I would say Boettgeri but a certain percentage of Hercegovinensis can have inguinals. Without knowledge of origin we can only guess.

 

[GBtortoises]

After seeing a better shot of the tail of #1 it's definitely female. All are probably Boettgeri. As Chris said "we can only guess" since little in known about the true origin of most Boettgeri and Hercegovinensis in captivity.

Oswego tort lover: The presence of inguinal scutes does not rule out being a Dalmatian since about 1/3 of known Dalmatians have one or both inguinal scutes present. All other indentifying features have to be considered when the inguinal scutes are present.

 

[egyptiandan]

The other thing thats muddying the waters is that Slovenia is now importing from farms in Macedonia (which only have T.h.boettgeri).
So whether they are using these animals as breeding stock or sending them out of the country (I know they have to the UK) I'm not sure.

Danny

 

[Tccarolina]

I talked to the guy further, and found out these are imported from Macedonia.
Perhaps from this guy?
He posted this on July 2, 2009 By mid-September, Hermann's Tortoises start appearing on Kingsnake.com from several dealers in Florida, all around 3.5-5 inches long. There were a number of very interested responses following his post.
Eko Hermana-Damjan Smilkov from Strumica, Macedonia

http://forum.agriscape.com/reptiles/?read=1693103

Here is a map of Strumica (marked with the red "a"), Macedonia. It is near the border of Greece and Bulgaria. I have no idea whether his animals come from there, or if that is just where his business address is.

Steve

 

[egyptiandan]

I can't think he went to far Steve to get his animals, so they all should be T.h.boettgeri.
So it seems this last shipment of Hermanns into this country have been T.h.boettgeri.

Danny