TORTOISE EMERGENCY PLEASE HELP (lethargic)

[ChloeSWilson]

Hello. My name is Chloe and I have two young Hermann tortoises. Our first is called Atlas, who is 4 and the second is Orion who is 2. They are kept in the same enclosure after weeks of steady intergration, and they both get on exceptionally well. We even have a small hide out for Orion and Atlas individually just in case he/she wants to be alone, but I digress.
Anyway, recently we started noticing a change in behaviour in Orion about two days ago. It seemed more lethargic and was sleeping much more than usual. It also seemed to be having problems with its eye; swelling and difficulties opening. We checked on it and made sure we bathed the eye in lukewarm water and kept Orion in optimum conditions. We live in the mountains, so our nearest reptile vet is several miles away, making it difficult to travel with him/her and we are still awaiting an appointment upon me typing this.
So Orions symptoms have steadily been getting worse. I came home from work this afternoon to notice that it was particularly lethargic and its eyes were bad. We took it out to soothe it with affection, bathing it in warm water and tending to the eyes until it looked relaxed again. We warmed it up before placing it back in its enclosure. We kept a close eye on it but about half an hour ago things have gotten really scary. It is so tired/drowsy that at some points it is going completely limp, not reacting and only moving temporarily to do a big yawn and look around. Orion is usually a very active tortoise so I can't stress how scary and bizarre this behaviour is for it. We are giving her warmth, affection and comfort and are currently trying to contact an out of hours vet, but if we can't get one to come out to us during normal hours then our hopes are down for getting one at this time.
It is in this absolute fear that I reach out to you all. Please, anyone who might know anything about this please help. My fiancé and I are both sitting here terrified, we've had tortoises now for two years and we have never seen any act like this.

 

[JoesMum]

They need to be split up and they need to be kept separately immediately and permanently.

Orion is displaying classic signs of a bullied tortoise.

They are not social creatures. They don't need, want or particularly like a friend. Another tortoise is simply a rival for space and food.

Pairs of torts rarely succeed and the size difference makes matters worse.

See this:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread...together-a-lesson-learned-the-hard-way.94114/

 

[ChloeSWilson]

Thank you so much for such a prompt reply, we're moving Orion into our living room enclosure as I type.
I had no idea that these were symptoms of a bullied tortoise. We suspected that they might want their own privacy, hence the separate parts of their enclosure, but I did not think that Atlas could be bullying it in any way. I feel so stupid, I only want what's best for them both.
Any ideas on how we can settle Orion? It's really not in a good way at the moment and any advice on how to calm/help until we can get professional help would be invaluable

 

[JoesMum]

Please post pictures of the enclosure and lighting for us to help you.

The eye problem could be caused by your UVB lamp. Is it the compact type that looks like a low energy light bulb? They are known to cause eye problems in torts.

Orion needs to be kept warm night and day, but also needs to be soaked in warm water in a high sided bowl for at least 30 minutes twice a day to rehydrate him.

Adding organic carrot puree baby food to the soaking water will help with recovery.

 

[JoesMum]

These TFO guides are written by species experts that are working hard to correct outdated information commonly found on the Internet and widely perpetuated by pet stores and, sadly, some breeders and vets too.

Please read them to understand the care your torts actually need

Beginner Mistakes
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/beginner-mistakes.45180/

Hermann's Care Guide
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/sticky-hermanns-tortoise-care-sheet-updated.101410/

Like I said, photos of the enclosure and lighting will help us to help you. Between us we have hundreds of years of experience of tortoise keeping around the world. (We're at 46 years with ours alone!) We can help you.

Details of diet and the 4 important temperatures- warm side, cool side, directly under the basking lamp and overnight minimum - are also needed.

It's 10.15pm here in the UK, so I shall be turning in for the night shortly. Hopefully someone like @Yvonne G or @Tom on the other side of the Atlantic can pick this up from me.

 

[ChloeSWilson]

I have attached all of the pictures requested.
This is our standard viv enclosure. We did consider a tortoise table, but with us living up in the Welsh mountains it is often freezing cold even indoors, so we found that a vic enclosure can retain heat for our torts better. We have inserts (small house boxes) that slip in and act as individual rooms for them.
These are just some of the leafy greens we have for them this week.
All of the pictures give some detail. We are open to all suggestions of changing how we keep them as I trust that you all have much more experience than we, and we would like to learn for the sake of the tortoises. We have always researched thoroughly, but if something is not right for their health then it lies with us, and any help towards giving us information is so appreciated

 

[ChloeSWilson]

We also do use calcium powder with every meal for them

 

[JoesMum]

Hi Chloe

Like me you'll be needing to turn in shortly as you're also in the UK.

You have tube UVB - that is good. You have a red heat lamp. That's not so good. I will post a lighting summary for you shortly.

We also do use calcium powder with every meal for them

A small sprinkle 3 times a week should be sufficient.

You really need to read those links I posted about care, paying particular attention to the enclosure size, humidity and food bowls, and I will pick up anything others haven't in the morning.

 

[JoesMum]

Here's a lighting summary:

Your tort needs:

1. A basking lamp
This must hang vertically, not at an angle. Basking is essential to raise your tortoise's core temperature so it can digest food.

2. UVB light
Read the instructions for the source to see how close to the substrate it must be. UVB is essential so your tort can process dietary calcium and have healthy bones and shell.

Both 1 and 2 are available from the sun for those able to live outside.

UVB does not pass through glass or perspex(plexiglass) - light must be direct to be effective not through a window. Mesh screening can also interfere with UVB.

3. A minimum overnight temperature (see the care sheet for your species) and complete darkness at night to sleep.


Notes

(a) A Mercury Vapor Bulb (MVB) provides combined UVB and Basking. Alternatively you can use 2 bulbs: a tube UVB and a reflector bulb for basking (a household reflector - not low energy or halogen - from a hardware store will do the job; it's the wattage that counts)

(b) Ignore any references to UVA you may read - it's misleading marketing speak.

(c) Compact coil UVB harms tortoise eyes and must not be used.

(d) Basking and UVB should be on a timer so the light(s) are on for 12 hours a day. Temperature under the basking is regulated by its height above the substrate.

(e) Overnight, depending on your home, you may need additional heat. You get this from a CHE (Ceramic Heat Emitter) which must be on a thermostat.

(f) Torts have outstanding colour vision and love red and purple food. Coloured heat lamps colour tank decor and torts don't always apply intelligence to what they eat, resulting them in eating tank decor. Coloured bulbs should not be used.


Measurements

There are 4 important temperatures that you must know for an indoor enclosure.
- Directly under the basking lamp
- Warm side
- Cool side
- Overnight Minimum

You will need digital thermometers for accuracy.

A temperature gun thermometer (inexpensive from Amazon) measures temperature accurately in specific places like directly under the basking lamp.

A min/max thermometer so you know the min/max temperatures in your home by day and night.

You should also get a good digital probe hygrometer to measure humidity.

Thermometers and hygrometer that stick to the side of the enclosure tend to be less accurate.

 

[ChloeSWilson]

Thank you very much for giving me that information, I'll read through it all thoroughly now to see if there's anything on the guide that we're not doing.
I really appreciate your help. I can't turn it at the moment as I'm incredibly worried about Orion, I'm watching it constantly.

 

[JoesMum]

As you're in the UK, I suggest you order a pot of Reptoboost which can be added to the soaking water.

I used it when my tort, Joe, was sick and also use it after every hibernation.

 

[ChloeSWilson]

I will do. Luckily, Orion loves a warm soak so this will be a good way to treat it.

 

[Grandpa Turtle 144]

We also do use calcium powder with every meal for them

What is the nightly temps in the enclosure , and is that dry wood chips as a flooring ?

 

[ChloeSWilson]

The nightly temp is around 22 degrees celcious. Yes it is, we tried sand (tortoise substrate) originally but Altas (who we had on its own at the time) hated it and it caused eye problems so we changed to this almost two years ago. The eye problems went as soon as we changed to wood chips

 

[KaitlinKeefe_]

hey there I'm sorry to hear about your tort. you have to change out the wood chips.

 

[JoesMum]

Good morning @ChloeSWilson. How is Orion this morning?

Let's start work on that enclosure.

Food and water:
Reptile bowls aren't suitable for tortoises; they're a tipping hazard and are hard for them to use.

Use a terracotta plant saucer sunk into the substrate for water - one about the diameter of the length of your tort.

Use a piece of flat rock or slate for food. Eating off it helps with beak maintenance and walking over it helps with claws.

Substrate:
It looks very dry in the enclosure.

If you have read the guides, you will know now that your torts need warm humidity to be healthy. Substrate needs to be something that you can tip water into so that it is evenly damp, but not wet.

Sand, which you tried earlier, isn't suitable as it doesn't hold water. Also, it sticks to food and causes impaction in the gut so it shouldn't be mixed with other materials at all. Don't use it.

The most frequently recommended substrates on here are coco coir and orchid bark. Nothing special - just get them from a garden centre or DIY store. Coco coir just comes in bricks that you soak to break up.

To maintain it, spray with water frequently and, when it starts to dry out, tip some water in and give it a good mix with your hands. You need a digital hygrometer to monitor the humidity.

Lighting:

Use timers so your lamps are controlled automatically.

Daytime UVB - sorted - you have a tube.

Daytime Basking - replace the red bulb with a standard reflector bulb for basking. Household ones are cheaper and just as effective as reptile ones, but getting harder to buy in the UK; reptile ones are easy to get. Use a temperature gun thermometer to measure the temperature underneath and adjust the height to get 35C directly underneath.

Night heat - Get a Ceramic Heat Emitter (CHE) and use it with a thermostat so it's only on when needed and it doesn't get too hot. Both can be purchased online easily.

Your torts need darkness at night. Red bulbs colour tank decor red. Torts have excellent colour vision and love red foods; they don't always apply what little intelligence they have to what they eat and will eat tank decor or substrate coloured red by the lamp. We have regular cases through TFO and I have seen mine try to eat red circles printed on a newspaper!

 

[ChloeSWilson]

Good morning. Orion is acting better today, although it is still not acting like itself.
I'll start with replacing all of those listed today. Thank you very much for your help! I'll make the changes and then keep you all posted on how Orion gets on.

 

[ChloeSWilson]

Orion has passed away today.
We had separated them and we're making changes. Orion was due to see a vet tomorrow.
I'm heartbroken so I don't really want to type any more.
I appreciate anyone who gave us help last night.
In tears whilst writing this.
Thank you

 

[JoesMum]

Orion has passed away today.
We had separated them and we're making changes. Orion was due to see a vet tomorrow.
I'm heartbroken so I don't really want to type any more.
I appreciate anyone who gave us help last night.
In tears whilst writing this.
Thank you

Chloe I am desperately sorry to hear this.

I will say that you shouldn't entirely give up hope immediately. Torts seem very slow to die and we have several stories on here of buried torts emerging from the ground. There may still be a glimmer of life there. Wait a couple of days before burial.

In the meantime please accept an electronic hug and our deepest sympathies.

 

[KaitlinKeefe_]

Chloe,

i am so sorry for your loss