What is Our stance on housing turtles in pairs?

[TechnoCheese]

I’ve recently(and in the past) seen a very large handful of members housing turtles like sliders in pairs, but I haven’t seen anyone tell the members to separate. I have been led to believe that turtles should not be kept in pairs unless they’re living in a large pond, especially sliders, and I feel this to be very true. I also witness turtles fighting constantly on another site, even babies in large enclosures.
Does anyone have differing opinions?

 

[Tom]

Not me. I see turtle pairs fighting and bullying just as much as tortoises.

 

[Yvonne G]

The Forum, as a whole, does not have "a stance." Each of our members is entitled to have his or her own opinion. When a member feels very strongly about their opinion, and voices that strength, and many of us agree with him/her, it may seem like the Forum has a stance on the subject, but I for one, don't want our members to just blindly follow the popular opinion because it's popular or well stated.

Having said that, I must admit, in the case of keeping pairs, I must follow popular opinion. For whatever reason, lots of people buy two. Maybe they think the animal needs a companion. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, and sometimes the keeper isn't savvy enough to understand why one is thriving and the other isn't.

In the case of turtles, quite often a small tank is what is purchased along with the two turtles. Mainly because glass aquariums are so very expensive. Two turtles in a small tank is asking for trouble. Turtles do seem to get along together better than tortoises do, but there will always be the dominant turtle and the submissive turtle.

 

[Markw84]

Not me. I see turtle pairs fighting and bullying just as much as tortoises.

This is one area Tom and I disagree.

Basking turtles in particular are very social animals. They use the power of numbers for protection while basking and actively seek out other turtles to bask together, and actually want to touch and even be on top of the other turtle, even though there is plenty of room elsewhere. They are in a sense, creating a multi-headed animal for increased vigilance and awareness of possible dangers. When a group of turtles are basking together, only one turtle needs to sense danger, and they all immediately scramble back into the water. When one turtle pulls out to bask, others will follow. When looking for basking spots, they will immediately pick a spot if another turtle(s) is already there. While feeding, they use another, or the group to help tear up larger pieces of food they may find. I find the feeding reflex of a stubborn eater is often stimulated when they see another turtle eating as well. Many species do much better with breeding when several males are following and courting a female. In my large pond, most all my turtles always prefer to group together as opposed to be scattered out around the pond.

There certainly are consideration depending upon species. Most "aggression" I see with turtles is really mating behavior. These behaviors have in many cases become quite species specific and help in determining suitable mates. Using the claws of the front feet to tickle the cheeks of the other turtle(Chrysemys & Pseudemys), biting the back of the neck (Trachemys), nipping at feet and the back of the shell (Clemmys), grabbing onto the shell of the other turtle from above with all four feet hooked on the marginals of the other (Actinemys), etc, etc,. Problems can occur when there is not ample room and ways to get away with some species. Trachemys are a good example with adult males. Clemmys gutta are a good example with multiple adult males. But in even these cases, I find these turtles will develop much more natural behaviors when group dynamics are at play.

 

[Yvonne G]

I agree, Mark, but I think the group dynamic doesn't apply to the original poster's question - asking about pairs, not groups.

 

[Tom]

This is one area Tom and I disagree.

Basking turtles in particular are very social animals. They use the power of numbers for protection while basking and actively seek out other turtles to bask together, and actually want to touch and even be on top of the other turtle, even though there is plenty of room elsewhere. They are in a sense, creating a multi-headed animal for increased vigilance and awareness of possible dangers. When a group of turtles are basking together, only one turtle needs to sense danger, and they all immediately scramble back into the water. When one turtle pulls out to bask, others will follow. When looking for basking spots, they will immediately pick a spot if another turtle(s) is already there. While feeding, they use another, or the group to help tear up larger pieces of food they may find. I find the feeding reflex of a stubborn eater is often stimulated when they see another turtle eating as well. Many species do much better with breeding when several males are following and courting a female. In my large pond, most all my turtles always prefer to group together as opposed to be scattered out around the pond.

There certainly are consideration depending upon species. Most "aggression" I see with turtles is really mating behavior. These behaviors have in many cases become quite species specific and help in determining suitable mates. Using the claws of the front feet to tickle the cheeks of the other turtle(Chrysemys & Pseudemys), biting the back of the neck (Trachemys), nipping at feet and the back of the shell (Clemmys), grabbing onto the shell of the other turtle from above with all four feet hooked on the marginals of the other (Actinemys), etc, etc,. Problems can occur when there is not ample room and ways to get away with some species. Trachemys are a good example with adult males. Clemmys gutta are a good example with multiple adult males. But in even these cases, I find these turtles will develop much more natural behaviors when group dynamics are at play.

As Yvonne said, you are talking about groups in large outdoor ponds. I am referring to pairs in relatively small indoor tanks.

 

[NorCal tortoise guy]

I agree with mark pairs and groups do great and are so much more interesting to keep but I also agree with tom crowding is a problem

On the whole the biggest problem i see with turtles is keeping them in tanks at all. My thinking is it is very hard to keep turtles in fish tanks, turtles do so much better in ponds. It can be done with a very large tank but very few keepers are able to provide enough water space in a fish tank much the same way a 40 gallon tank is just not enough space for an adult tortoise

 

[Markw84]

As Yvonne said, you are talking about groups in large outdoor ponds. I am referring to pairs in relatively small indoor tanks.

We agree there. I actually don’t think most adult turtles should be kept in aquariums at all, except for a few small species.

 

[TechnoCheese]

I have another question.
Couldn’t piling on top of each other be trying to compete for sunlight, or the best basking spot? Or trying to assert dominance?

 

[NorCal tortoise guy]

I have another question.
Couldn’t piling on top of each other be trying to compete for sunlight, or the best basking spot? Or trying to assert dominance?

It has never seemed that way to me at all. When I had a pond all the turtles seemed to like to pile up regardless of the fact that there was lots of other basking spots with just as much sun and even the same type of rock to get on

 

[Markw84]

I have another question.
Couldn’t piling on top of each other be trying to compete for sunlight, or the best basking spot? Or trying to assert dominance?

I don't see that. When we see dominance issues with tortoises, we see the subordinate individual wanting/trying to get away and find its own space. Our problem is that in captivity we don't give it that option. With basking turtles, there is never a desire to get away and find its own space. There is instead a desire to seek out other turtles and congregate together when given the choice.

So to explain my previous post, I do not feel pairs, per se, is a problem with aquatic, basking turtles. I do believe small indoor tanks with adult basking turtles is a problem. With tortoises, we see pairs resulting in one tortoise doing better and the other struggling to keep up in size and health. With aquatics, I find a a pair will do better than a single turtle. There is comfort/security in company and it stimulates better activity. Once they become larger and confined space creates abnormal behavior patterns, you are likely to have problems.

Most "agression" problems with aquatics are mating rituals gone awry. Most "social" interaction beyond basking security and feeding stimulation is species and mate identification and learning and practicing mating rituals. As I mentioned above, these can be quite specific. With species found commonly alongside other species, especially. Painted turtles will rarely bother another type of turtle. Even a southern painted with be uninterested in a western painted if given a choice. If no choice of a compatible southern painted is available, then they will start becoming interested in western or midland painted. The same with Psuedemys. A Suwanee cooter will normally be uninterested in a red belly cooter. Even a mississippi map will stay following another mississippi map even with false maps present. But if no other Mississippi maps are present, they will definately become interested in false or Sabine maps. ON the other hand, the Actinemys - western pond turtle, who is native to an area where no other aquatic turtles exist, will display mating behavior to anything that looks like a turtle, even when good potential Actinemys mates are available.

The mating behaviour starts even as hatchlings. They seem to practice this way of interacting from the very beginning. As they become adults, this then turns into earnest mating behavior. They have to learn how to make a female receptive as chelonians are not designed well for mating without some degree of cooperation. With some species this involves getting the female to become submissive and stop any attempts to get away. Nipping at legs and tail, or biting and hanging on to the back of the neck. Some latch on and ride the female to submission. IN other species it seems to be a ritual of flirtation rather than what looks like aggression. Swimming backwards in front of the female "showing off". Tickling the cheeks of the female with overgrown, long front claws, etc, etc. So it is the species that have adopted the more aggressive mating ritual that has the reputation of becoming mean or aggressive in captivity. Put in a place where there is no escape if the female is receptive causes the activity to continue and escalate. So we see this in captive male Trachemys, Clemmys, and Actineyms for example as they have this aggressive style mating ritual. The females are not a problem. I can and do keep female red-ears in my large pond with no issues whatsoever. But I will not keep an adult male red-ear. I have to monitor my spotted turtle colony and watch that the number and "pecking order" of my adult males does not get out of hand. Never the hint of an issue with a female. With the passive "flirters" - the painted and cooters - there is never a problem at all even with males.

So, from my experiences, aggression in aquatics is all mating ritual issues. Not a dominance issue.

 

[TechnoCheese]

Very interesting!

 

[Tom]

It has never seemed that way to me at all. When I had a pond all the turtles seemed to like to pile up regardless of the fact that there was lots of other basking spots with just as much sun and even the same type of rock to get on

Interesting. You see them piled up and conclude it is not what TechnoCheese was asking about. I read what you wrote and conclude that it is exactly what Techno was asking about.

Why would they pile up like that if there were plenty of other spots to bask without having to interact or try to displace other turtles. The guy on top would, in theory, be most vulnerable to predators. How does the one underneath feel about the other one climbing on top? Must not bother them too much, or they'd move, right?

Interesting question.

 

[NorCal tortoise guy]

Interesting. You see them piled up and conclude it is not what TechnoCheese was asking about. I read what you wrote and conclude that it is exactly what Techno was asking about.

Why would they pile up like that if there were plenty of other spots to bask without having to interact or try to displace other turtles. The guy on top would, in theory, be most vulnerable to predators. How does the one underneath feel about the other one climbing on top? Must not bother them too much, or they'd move, right?

Interesting question.

I always figured had it been aggression the less dominant one would move away to another equally suitable basking area but they never did just seemed completely content. Truly is an interesting question

 

[Krazyturtlelady]

I am no expert but I believe there is a difference in captive bred and species in the wild. I have observed both and do see the difference. I believe in keeping native turtles in their natural habitat and am fortunate to live in an area where I can observe them in that way. I live in the southeast and I cringe when I see people selling box turtles and sliders on Craigslist that they have caught in their natural habitat. I do have tortoises not native to this region and am pretty certain they have been captive bred. It may sound crazy but I almost feel guilty they are not in their native environment. I am new to the forum and hope I do not offend anyone.

 

[ascott]

The Forum, as a whole, does not have "a stance." Each of our members is entitled to have his or her own opinion. When a member feels very strongly about their opinion, and voices that strength, and many of us agree with him/her, it may seem like the Forum has a stance on the subject, but I for one, don't want our members to just blindly follow the popular opinion because it's popular or well stated.

Having said that, I must admit, in the case of keeping pairs, I must follow popular opinion. For whatever reason, lots of people buy two. Maybe they think the animal needs a companion. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, and sometimes the keeper isn't savvy enough to understand why one is thriving and the other isn't.

In the case of turtles, quite often a small tank is what is purchased along with the two turtles. Mainly because glass aquariums are so very expensive. Two turtles in a small tank is asking for trouble. Turtles do seem to get along together better than tortoises do, but there will always be the dominant turtle and the submissive turtle.

I completely agree with your first sentence....there is not an "our" that should be prominent on this or any other forum...but once politics begin, good luck with that first sentence Yvonne.

 

[TechnoCheese]

I completely agree with your first sentence....there is not an "our" that should be prominent on this or any other forum...but once politics begin, good luck with that first sentence Yvonne.

This thread is relatively old. I think if someone was going to get mad at Yvonne for saying that, they already would’ve

Edit: I think I misunderstood that sentence, lol

 

[ascott]

This thread is relatively old. I think if someone was going to get mad at Yvonne for saying that, they already would’ve

Edit: I think I misunderstood that sentence, lol

Actually, the sentence is pretty forthright....I have not seen anywhere that you, nor anyone person have the authority to speak on behalf of the entire forum? I also don't see anyone being "mad at Yvonne" for any part of the thread....I certainly am not. But thanks for your input dear

 

[TechnoCheese]

Actually, the sentence is pretty forthright....I have not seen anywhere that you, nor anyone person have the authority to speak on behalf of the entire forum?

Yes, I agree. However, on most things, we /do/ have a stance. For example, most, if not all, older members(and newer for that matter) believe very strongly the species like Sulcata should be kept humid. Most of us also believe that tortoises should not be kept in pairs, and that species should not be mixed. I guess I wrongly assumed that a majority of members would think the same about the turtles, seeing as pairs of tortoises are such a big no no. Even then, the Title wasn’t meant to be taken that seriously. “Our stance” was just meant to be what the majority thought, not what the forum as a whole thought.

I also don't see anyone being "mad at Yvonne" for any part of the thread....I certainly am not. But thanks for your input dear

Yes. That was why I edited, and said that I had misunderstood what you’d said. I somewhat agree with your comment, now that I understand what you meant.

But thanks for your input dear

Really? My comment was meant to be playful. That’s a bit condescending, dontcha think?

 

[ascott]

Yes, I agree. However, on most things, we /do/ have a stance. For example, most, if not all, older members(and newer for that matter) believe very strongly the species like Sulcata should be kept humid. Most of us also believe that tortoises should not be kept in pairs, and that species should not be mixed. I guess I wrongly assumed that a majority of members would think the same about the turtles, seeing as pairs of tortoises are such a big no no. Even then, the Title wasn’t meant to be taken that seriously. “Our stance” was just meant to be what the majority thought, not what the forum as a whole thought.


Yes. That was why I edited, and said that I had misunderstood what you’d said. I somewhat agree with your comment, now that I understand what you meant.

Really? My comment was meant to be playful. That’s a bit condescending, dontcha think?

Nope...still stand with my comment that the folks on the forum are not an "our"...we are all individuals.

Cool. I am happy that you now understand what you say you initially misunderstood....settled then right?

Condescending....nope, did not ever think or feel that when posting...I am sad to hear that you "heard" my comment that way. So to answer you, No, I dontcha think? I am a pretty direct person and would have made certain to be condescending had I tried to be