What tortoise can be housed with my Sulcata?

[ascott]

LOL...we have had this thread before ...the proper for redfoot tortoise....redfeet tortoise.....redfoot tortoises....redfoot tortie....LOL, kinda think it is like tomato vs tomatoe HAHAHAHAHAHA....

 

[exoticsdr]

Todd, what is your take on this....you would be a great source for an opinion here, IMHO that is

I think, in a perfect world, it is best to keep species separated in their own enclosures, but this is coming from a tortoise owner that has been guilty of species mixing for the last 18 or so years.

Would I want to mix several different species of wild caught animals? Heck No! Do I worry about mixing species of animals that are approximately the same size, outwardly healthy and captive bred from reputable sources and require the same treatment....No, not much.

This might just be me playing Devil's Advocate.

Of course, there are many variables to consider but it seems that everyone gets all concerned about cohabiting different species, but how many of us don't practice good biosecurity? How many of us wash our hands between enclosures or wear protective footwear and/or change footwear between large enclosures? How many of us have taken pictures of different species together, even though it was only for a moment just to show TFO members what we have? This may all seem very trivial, BUT if an animal truly has a contagious disease that it can pass to another species, that disease does not care whether or not it travels via a tortoises' nose or an unwashed hand or foot.

Just some food for thought.

Doc

 

[Maggie Cummings]

And one more thing...tortoises come in SPECIES not breeds...dogs come in breeds.

 

[Tom]

I have seen people play "russian roulette" with their tortoises and get away with it. But, like in Maggie's case, I have also seen some tortoises and tortoise collections catch the proverbial "bullet" and die too. The Doc, who I respect greatly, makes some great points, but it is still very risky in my opinion to mix species. As a professional and diploma holding "Animal Behavior Management" specialist, I believe that mixing them is just as bad for behavioral reasons, as it is for parasite or disease reasons. They can endure and survive an awful lot, but that doesn't mean it is good for them.

Where are all the chameleon keepers out there? Come on. Explain how stress in reptiles works...

 

[exoticsdr]

And one more thing...tortoises come in SPECIES not breeds...dogs come in breeds.

Wow, that was the quickest post modification that I have ever seen. Makes me wonder, did the the Desert Tort get sick from something the Sulcata was carrying or was it a pre-existing problem that was finally manifested because of stress? and how does a Desert Tort get to Oregon anyway?

 

[ascott]

I am confused ...what desert tort and what sulcata are we talking about???? sorry if I totally missed something here????

 

[exoticsdr]

I have seen people play "russian roulette" with their tortoises and get away with it. But, like in Maggie's case, I have also seen some tortoises and tortoise collections catch the proverbial "bullet" and die too. The Doc, who I respect greatly, makes some great points, but it is still very risky in my opinion to mix species. As a professional and diploma holding "Animal Behavior Management" specialist, I believe that mixing them is just as bad for behavioral reasons, as it is for parasite or disease reasons. They can endure and survive an awful lot, but that doesn't mean it is good for them.

Where are all the chameleon keepers out there? Come on. Explain how stress in reptiles works...

I am confused ...what desert tort and what sulcata are we talking about???? sorry if I totally missed something here????

Maggie had posted that six years ago, she had mixed a Desert Tort and a Sulcata and the Desert Tort had become very ill from some pathogen that she couldn't remember.

 

[ascott]

oh oh oh....okay then i am sorry i truly thought i airheaded somewhere on this thread...thank you...

 

[jaizei]

Todd, what is your take on this....you would be a great source for an opinion here, IMHO that is

I think, in a perfect world, it is best to keep species separated in their own enclosures, but this is coming from a tortoise owner that has been guilty of species mixing for the last 18 or so years.

Would I want to mix several different species of wild caught animals? Heck No! Do I worry about mixing species of animals that are approximately the same size, outwardly healthy and captive bred from reputable sources and require the same treatment....No, not much.

This might just be me playing Devil's Advocate.

Of course, there are many variables to consider but it seems that everyone gets all concerned about cohabiting different species, but how many of us don't practice good biosecurity? How many of us wash our hands between enclosures or wear protective footwear and/or change footwear between large enclosures? How many of us have taken pictures of different species together, even though it was only for a moment just to show TFO members what we have? This may all seem very trivial, BUT if an animal truly has a contagious disease that it can pass to another species, that disease does not care whether or not it travels via a tortoises' nose or an unwashed hand or foot.

Just some food for thought.

Doc

Good points. Questioning what we do and why we do it is the best way to learn and improve.

 

[BrinnANDTorts]

got your point ripper

Good, thought you were saying that the idea of a multi species yard was aok and that the issue of pathogens should be of little actual concern......

btw, if you do feel this way, it is completely your choice....I was just a bit shocked at the message in the way that "I" read it....

Gupta says thank you for all your helpful info!!!!

 

[ascott]

Gupta is so adorable

 

[ripper7777777]

And one more thing...tortoises come in SPECIES not breeds...dogs come in breeds.

Sorry, that is something I do know, my mistake in typing in a hurry, did not mean to offend you.

Todd, what is your take on this....you would be a great source for an opinion here, IMHO that is

I think, in a perfect world, it is best to keep species separated in their own enclosures, but this is coming from a tortoise owner that has been guilty of species mixing for the last 18 or so years.

Would I want to mix several different species of wild caught animals? Heck No! Do I worry about mixing species of animals that are approximately the same size, outwardly healthy and captive bred from reputable sources and require the same treatment....No, not much.

This might just be me playing Devil's Advocate.

Of course, there are many variables to consider but it seems that everyone gets all concerned about cohabiting different species, but how many of us don't practice good biosecurity? How many of us wash our hands between enclosures or wear protective footwear and/or change footwear between large enclosures? How many of us have taken pictures of different species together, even though it was only for a moment just to show TFO members what we have? This may all seem very trivial, BUT if an animal truly has a contagious disease that it can pass to another species, that disease does not care whether or not it travels via a tortoises' nose or an unwashed hand or foot.

Just some food for thought.

Doc

Very good points, I've wondered the same things when seeing torts together or in outside enclosures together but kept separately most of the time.


I am curious though is there an amount of time that can pass to feel safe or is it basically the same risk at year 10 as it is at day one. I have seen stories on this forum about people being told to separate long term buddies.

 

[ascott]

Ripper....I have never housed any two different species together in the same enclosure. I have not housed more than one tort in any one enclosure.

Since I have adopted the two redfoot torts I do wash my hands between handling them as well as my CDTs...Also they are no where near one another....when I soak the redfoots and dump their water out it is clear away from my CDTs as I would be sick..absolutely sick if anything I did caused any harm to the CDTs ...

.as well as I would not want to expose my little redfoot torts to any CDTs funk ... I do have two female RESs that have been together since they were purchased 2 for 5.00 downtown los angeles by a little girl and her mother on a shopping trip...they were given to my old boss who failed to do anything but toss em in a tank with water and a little tiny useless in tank filter...that was it...so when my old boss started putting dirty pond water in with them then craw dads just for fun to see what would happen....at that point I threw a fit...told him to stay away from them and I took over their care and they have been with me since...this is the only enclosure that I house more than one to a space and I am always on watch as they are getting older that they don't
begin to have any issues with one another...and if they should then they will be given
their own space...this is just the way I do things...ultra paranoid about the sensitivity to foreign funk that tortoise have......

 

[ripper7777777]

Ripper....I have never housed any two different species together in the same enclosure. I have not housed more than one tort in any one enclosure.

Since I have adopted the two redfoot torts I do wash my hands between handling them as well as my CDTs...Also they are no where near one another....when I soak the redfoots and dump their water out it is clear away from my CDTs as I would be sick..absolutely sick if anything I did caused any harm to the CDTs ...

.as well as I would not want to expose my little redfoot torts to any CDTs funk ... I do have two female RESs that have been together since they were purchased 2 for 5.00 downtown los angeles by a little girl and her mother on a shopping trip...they were given to my old boss who failed to do anything but toss em in a tank with water and a little tiny useless in tank filter...that was it...so when my old boss started putting dirty pond water in with them then craw dads just for fun to see what would happen....at that point I threw a fit...told him to stay away from them and I took over their care and they have been with me since...this is the only enclosure that I house more than one to a space and I am always on watch as they are getting older that they don't
begin to have any issues with one another...and if they should then they will be given
their own space...this is just the way I do things...ultra paranoid about the sensitivity to foreign funk that tortoise have......

Sounds like good practices, probably better than most of us, which I think is what Doc was trying to point out.

I'd still like to know if there is a safe amount of time, just for curiosity sake. I have not read any actual data on what bacteria or pathogen each species carries and what effect it would have. Just as I have not read anything about what pathogens Captive bred tortoises carry compared to wild tortoises. Of course like I said no matter if you choose to risk it or not, size will become an issue with the sulcatas. I'm just a curious person.

 

[ascott]

Ripper...I do not have an answer for your remaining question.....I believe it to be hard to believe that there is an absolute answer though?

If we were to think of how many variables are about...how many different species there are kept in captivity....the possibilities for numerous bacteria and such pathogens would likely be near countless...so I bet generalities are used most frequently....IMHO.....this is one of the reasons I get so strict (just the ocd in me) with not housing multiple torts with one another....now, I am not into breeding of torts so this is a realistic approach that works for me....and I would never impose my beliefs and practice on anyone as the only way to do things...but rather is the only way I do things in regards to the torts I care for...

 

[Maggie Cummings]

Todd...I have only lived in Oregon for 5 years, before that I lived in California. Yvonne and I are sisters and I used to assist her at her tortoise rescue and my payment for that assistance was free turtles and tortoises. So I basically collected Gopherus agassizii and Sulcata. Yes, I changed my previous post quickly because I rethought it and decided it was kind of rude to a newbie. And even if I thought he was being a smart a** and relatively sarcastic I thought I could be the bigger person and changed my mind about what I said. So I may have been quick in post modification, you were quick in your reading. The desert tortoise was not stressed in anyway, I just knew someone was going to contest what I said as is happening a lot lately, so I decided why should I waste my time on someone I don't know and don't much care for and have to defend myself again. It's just not worth all the aggravation, so I deleted what I wrote and you saw it anyway and called me on it anyway so here I am having to defend myself... anyway. The desert tortoise got a parasite from the Sulcata. How do I know it was that way? I believed the Vet who told me the parasite had come from the Sulcata to the desert tortoise. I don't know why the vet decided it was that way. But that's what he said and that's what I remember about it. I was taught that you don't mix species but I did it anyway and that desert tortoise almost died. Since then I have gone back to those things I was taught and it seems like most of them are old fashioned now and I am called on stuff like this. Now that most of the tortoises that we get are captive bred it is probably alright to mix species. But I wouldn't do it, and from now on all I am going to say when asked is...that's what I was taught.

 

[ascott]

Sooooooo going OT here.....Maggie, I hope you continue to post as I have become to depend on you to do. You know I have noticed some unnecessary sparring on the forum lately. Yes care for tortoise and turtle is a constant changing environment...however some things are needed for the basics and those will never change...."old school" is such an easily discarded commodity these days and it is truly a shame. If it were not for old school there would be no basics from with which to excel.....I think that respect for knowledge from days gone past is also easily discarded these days...such a shame..as where better to plan for the future than yesterday?....Maggie I certainly hope that folks remember that, God willing, we will all be part of the old school from days gone past sharing what we use to do and how that shaped what we now do....and I bet there will be the same basics from with which to continue to grow then as well.....please remember tolerance for one anothers different opinions allows our eyes to see differently and in turn see something that we would have missed standing in our narrow place of comfort......everyone just be......and Maggie, you do not have to defend yourself...really you do not

 

[BrinnANDTorts]

okay so i think its safe to say that different species don't need to be anywhere near each other cause I do not in any circumstances want to risk anything. I am very happy with just Gupta, just a curiosity question. I had no idea it would strike up such a heated debate. lots of info though which is really good.

 

[ripper7777777]

Todd...I have only lived in Oregon for 5 years, before that I lived in California. Yvonne and I are sisters and I used to assist her at her tortoise rescue and my payment for that assistance was free turtles and tortoises. So I basically collected Gopherus agassizii and Sulcata. Yes, I changed my previous post quickly because I rethought it and decided it was kind of rude to a newbie. And even if I thought he was being a smart a** and relatively sarcastic I thought I could be the bigger person and changed my mind about what I said. So I may have been quick in post modification, you were quick in your reading. The desert tortoise was not stressed in anyway, I just knew someone was going to contest what I said as is happening a lot lately, so I decided why should I waste my time on someone I don't know and don't much care for and have to defend myself again. It's just not worth all the aggravation, so I deleted what I wrote and you saw it anyway and called me on it anyway so here I am having to defend myself... anyway. The desert tortoise got a parasite from the Sulcata. How do I know it was that way? I believed the Vet who told me the parasite had come from the Sulcata to the desert tortoise. I don't know why the vet decided it was that way. But that's what he said and that's what I remember about it. I was taught that you don't mix species but I did it anyway and that desert tortoise almost died. Since then I have gone back to those things I was taught and it seems like most of them are old fashioned now and I am called on stuff like this. Now that most of the tortoises that we get are captive bred it is probably alright to mix species. But I wouldn't do it, and from now on all I am going to say when asked is...that's what I was taught.

WOW, the amount of love is astounding...... Sorry I got you all riled up, it was not my intentions. I have seen this argument played out before. People say absolutely not, than people say sure I do it, than some one says bacteria, than someone says captive born and it goes on. So I thought I would move past it since this involved a sulcata and someone asking about smaller tortoises.

For the record I am newb to the tortoises, but I have raised, parrots, pythons, turtles, frogs, geckos, monitors, flying squirrels, opossums, iguanas, ferrets, dogs and even cats and some would say I raised crickets. I have also breed and raised a lot of different tropical fish. I have seen similar arguments with other species, but as I ran a basic rescue from the house sometimes you have to house animals together.

But again Maggie I am sorry I was actually trying support your side in this with a simplistic point, but I suppose newbies should just keep their mouth shut and let the pros talk.

Thanks ascott, but really I was wanting a professional medical opinion on the length of time for bacteria, I know there would be no set rule, just wanting his opinion on the topic, again out of curiosity sake for my own education. But thanks for all your opinions and I appreciate your this is the way I do it but you can do it your way attitude.


BrinnANDGupta - That is probably the best bet.

 

[exoticsdr]

Todd...I have only lived in Oregon for 5 years, before that I lived in California. Yvonne and I are sisters and I used to assist her at her tortoise rescue and my payment for that assistance was free turtles and tortoises. So I basically collected Gopherus agassizii and Sulcata. Yes, I changed my previous post quickly because I rethought it and decided it was kind of rude to a newbie. And even if I thought he was being a smart a** and relatively sarcastic I thought I could be the bigger person and changed my mind about what I said. So I may have been quick in post modification, you were quick in your reading. The desert tortoise was not stressed in anyway, I just knew someone was going to contest what I said as is happening a lot lately, so I decided why should I waste my time on someone I don't know and don't much care for and have to defend myself again. It's just not worth all the aggravation, so I deleted what I wrote and you saw it anyway and called me on it anyway so here I am having to defend myself... anyway. The desert tortoise got a parasite from the Sulcata. How do I know it was that way? I believed the Vet who told me the parasite had come from the Sulcata to the desert tortoise. I don't know why the vet decided it was that way. But that's what he said and that's what I remember about it. I was taught that you don't mix species but I did it anyway and that desert tortoise almost died. Since then I have gone back to those things I was taught and it seems like most of them are old fashioned now and I am called on stuff like this. Now that most of the tortoises that we get are captive bred it is probably alright to mix species. But I wouldn't do it, and from now on all I am going to say when asked is...that's what I was taught.

Wow! Didn't expect this. Sorry, Maggie, my question about your diagnosis was not meant to "call you out" nor an indictment on how you currently keep or have kept your charges in the past, just a simple question, that I thought was germane to the topic at hand and to the posting that you made. As for the timing of my answer, I read your original post and was in the process of pushing the reply button, you submitted your modification to your original post, so imagine my surprise when I looked and saw a completely abbreviated post in my reply window when your original post had so much more to say (that I didn't comment on), but I chose to ask the question anyway because it was very relevant to the topic.

Now for the desert tort ownership question, that was of my own curiousity...being a citizen of The Great State of Texas, I haven't seen, yet alone, been able to keep a native tortoise....and not knowing where you have lived or haven't, I was curious how you came to own the species since you live in Oregon...so now I know. Out of curiousity, what kind of hassle was it to obtain permission to take yours out-of-state?

Doc