Where did I go wrong?

Thomas Lamar

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Hello!

I recently lost a 2-3 month old leopard hatchling after a month long ordeal of antibiotics and force feeding. To increase my knowledge base for the future, I wanted to describe his enclosure a bit and see if I could have made some changes there for his betterment.

He was an itty bitty guy, 26 grams and half the size of my palm. So I had him in a 20 gallon reptile tank with a screen lid. I read that tortoise babies are shy and secretive, so I used black cardboard paper to black out all sides of the glass but the front, which just got a several inch high black bar across the front bottom. I also figured this would help with heat retention.

On top of the screen lid I had a two domed light fixture, one with a UVB 10.0 bulb and a heat basking bulb in the other. I was informed that the basking area needed to be 95-100° F, which I was not achieving with a 100 watt bulb. So I replaced it with a 150 watt bulb. This got the basking temp right, and kept the cool side of the tank in the low 80's in temp. I placed a rock under the basking light, slightly boosting height. But also thinking it would absorb and radiate heat. The issue was, I was having to mist the enclosure 8-10 times daily because the powerful light was drying the whole thing out. Every time I looked it was down to 25% Humidity. I ended up having to cover the screen with a towel to slow down moisture loss, which helped a little, but I still experienced constant moisture loss.

The UVB and heat light were on from around 8am to 8:30pm. Overnight I used a ceramic heat emitter over the enclosure that seemed to keep temps in the low to mid 80's overall.

I lined the bottom with repti bark substrate, and placed food and water in shallow clay pot saucers that I made level with the substrate so the little one could climb right in or out whenever he wanted. The water was changed daily, and food included grass from my lawn, clover, dandelion greens, yellow squash, carrot, sweet potato, escarole, collard greens. These were dusted with repti-vite and calcium powder 2-3 times weekly. I also supplied a cuttle bone.

I placed a log hide against the wall of the enclosure, on the cool side. I moistened sphagnum moss in the log every day, as well as doing twice daily soaks for the little guy. So between two 15-20 minutes soaks daily, daily water always available, frequent misting, and the moist hide, I tried my best to avoid slow cooking the little tort.

Like I said, he passed away earlier this week, and I miss him. Could I have done anything differently? I would take a pic, but the setup has been dismantled in my grief. I even had the 80 gallon tank to switch to when he grew ready, and planned to hunt garage sales and estate sales for a bookshelf to fashion into his adult enclosure.

FYI, I live in Buffalo, N.Y., and we can probably count the number of 85° or over days we have each year on one hand. I took him out for sun when I could, but really warm days aren't common, and are usually limited to July/August each year.

Just looking for feedback. Thanks!
 
Last edited:

Kasia

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Hi, why was he on antibiotics? Did he show symptoms of URI? A picture of your enclosure would be helpful as well. Where did you get your baby from, how was it started? Dry or in high humidity? Its good that before you get another your doing your best to correct the setup. Sometimes that is still not enough to get the baby going if it was stared dry or had worms. Did the Vet you visited check for them?
 

Thomas Lamar

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Buffalo, NY USA
Hi, why was he on antibiotics? Did he show symptoms of URI? A picture of your enclosure would be helpful as well. Where did you get your baby from, how was it started? Dry or in high humidity? Its good that before you get another your doing your best to correct your setup. Sometimes that is still not enough to get the baby going if it was stared dry or had worms. Did the Vet you visited check for them?

He was on antibiotics for a URI. It got better after my first vet visit, but then the URI returned. Poor guy passed away during the second set of antibiotics.

Unfortunately, I have since disassembled the enclosure, so I can't take a picture. The description above is the best I have.

As for how he was started, I can only assume very dry/poorly. I got him at a reptile expo in my city in mid May. He was in a small tank with very harsh UVB light, and it was overfilled with baby sulcata, redfoots, and leopards. I was ignorant back then, but he wasn't moving much and had his eyes closed. The proprietor just said to take him home and soak him, and he would be fine. What a load of #$@ in retrospect. He knew he was sick, and didn't care if he sold the tortoise that way.

The vet I visited didn't do a fecal analysis, but then again, when I visited the little tort wasn't eating or having bowel movements. They did x-rays to check the lung field, which came back clear. But due to the swollen eyes, inappetance, lethargy, etc, they diagnosed URI and have me ceftazadime injections for him as well as an antibiotic eye ointment.
 

Kasia

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I assume you read the care sheets for leopard tortoise pinned on top of this section. From my point of view you have to work on keeping up your humidity levels, dry stared babies won't thrive. In the enclosure section you will find loads of threads showing how to achieve perfect conditions. Search for closed chambers. Hatchlings like it warm and humid if it's to cold all the moisture will be the reason they get respiratory infection. I think that in your case that wasn't it. I think baby sold to you was already sick or dry started and had internal issues. Sometimes worms mirror URI symptoms, antibiotic will not work in these cases. Vet could do a cloaca swab, stool sample isn't always needed. Link below describes such a case.
I would advise you to buy your next baby from a reputable breeder, there are many of them on this forum. One you can call or email with questions or problems if any will happen. Most of all you know your baby will be stared correctly and be healthy. Other members will chip in with there ideas. I wish you best of luck with your new leo:)
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/ernie.136677/
 

Reptilian Feline

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I know the feeling. At the moment I'm hoping for the best with my own replacement leo.
I know there are some excelent care sheets here and I'm sure you'll get the links from the experts, or just look at the top posts. From what I understand from your description, the humidity was the main problem, and maybe the night heat. The tank should have a better lid with a hole cut for the light. You could have covered the screen top with foil instead of a towel. The food looks a bit off as well, too many veggies, not enough leaves.
The problem with getting a sick little tort from a vendor at an expo is a sad thing and most likely the little one wouldn't have made it anyway. The antibiotics didn't help on such a sick little one, there was no margin for it.

Don't give up! Get a new healthy one with spunk, and make sure to read the care sheets here.
 

Thomas Lamar

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Location (City and/or State)
Buffalo, NY USA
I assume you read the care sheets for leopard tortoise pinned on top of this section. From my point of view you have to work on keeping up your humidity levels, dry stared babies won't thrive. In the enclosure section you will find loads of threads showing how to achieve perfect conditions. Search for closed chambers. Hatchlings like it warm and humid if it's to cold all the moisture will be the reason they get respiratory infection. I think that in your case that wasn't it. I think baby sold to you was already sick or dry started and had internal issues. Sometimes worms mirror URI symptoms, antibiotic will not work in these cases. Vet could do a cloaca swab, stool sample isn't always needed. Link below describes such a case.
I would advise you to buy your next baby from a reputable breeder, there are many of them on this forum. One you can call or email with questions or problems if any will happen. Most of all you know your baby will be stared correctly and be healthy. Other members will chip in with there ideas. I wish you best of luck with your new leo:)
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/ernie.136677/

Well, after the first series of antibiotics, the little guy was eating better, had open eyes regularly, etc. So I felt like they were working to a degree.

However, reading that linked thread you supplied sounded familiar. Especially the spotty appetite. I will definitely find a way to better trap humidity before I invest in another Leo. Thank you!
 

Kasia

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Yep, forgot to mention that carrots and sweet potatoes aren't good for tortoise! Dark, leafy weeds and grass :)
 

Kasia

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Well, after the first series of antibiotics, the little guy was eating better, had open eyes regularly, etc. So I felt like they were working to a degree.

However, reading that linked thread you supplied sounded familiar. Especially the spotty appetite. I will definitely find a way to better trap humidity before I invest in another Leo. Thank you!
You have all the knowledge you need here, ask for details, people will help:) I wish all tortoise keepers were as willing to provide good care and proceed with changes if needed.
 

Thomas Lamar

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I know the feeling. At the moment I'm hoping for the best with my own replacement leo.
I know there are some excelent care sheets here and I'm sure you'll get the links from the experts, or just look at the top posts. From what I understand from your description, the humidity was the main problem, and maybe the night heat. The tank should have a better lid with a hole cut for the light. You could have covered the screen top with foil instead of a towel. The food looks a bit off as well, too many veggies, not enough leaves.
The problem with getting a sick little tort from a vendor at an expo is a sad thing and most likely the little one wouldn't have made it anyway. The antibiotics didn't help on such a sick little one, there was no margin for it.

Don't give up! Get a new healthy one with spunk, and make sure to read the care sheets here.

I am think that a full hood on the enclosure, similar to fish tank hoods but with appropriate lighting, may be a good way to trap humidity.

I appreciate the dietary input. He was a fussy eater even when he was eating his best. I know he should have been eating dried hay/grasses, but he was so small he couldn't even pull certain leaves/stalks apart on his own. The sweet potato/carrot was mostly in the form of force fed baby food.
 

Thomas Lamar

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Yep, forgot to mention that carrots and sweet potatoes aren't good for tortoise! Dark, leafy weeds and grass :)

When he was eating okay (After first antibiotics but before declining), he loved grazing from my lawn. Grass, clover, dandelions leaves, plantain leaves. The carrots/sweet potato was mostly in the form of force fed baby food. :(
 

Kasia

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When he was eating okay (After first antibiotics but before declining), he loved grazing from my lawn. Grass, clover, dandelions leaves, plantain leaves. The carrots/sweet potato was mostly in the form of force fed baby food. :(

http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/pearlys-tips-to-feed-picky-eater.139381/
Pearly is a forum expert on picky eaters:) leo hatchlings probably will not eat dry hay but if you mix in their food chopped grass they will take some. Tortoise don't hatch picky they become picky in course of feeding them poor not varied diet. One more signal that your baby was not started correctly.
 

Thomas Lamar

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http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/pearlys-tips-to-feed-picky-eater.139381/
Pearly is a forum expert on picky eaters:) leo hatchlings probably will not eat dry hay but if you mix in their food chopped grass they will take some. Tortoise don't hatch picky they become picky in course of feeding them poor not varied diet. One more signal that your baby was not started correctly.

I am seeing seeing many people state that he sounds like he was started poorly. I could have done some things differently, for sure. But knowing that I didn't personally doom the little guy is a relief. I will bookmark that link. Thank you!
 

Kasia

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Don't beat yourself, you did all you could to keep your baby alive. Some folks that have visited this forum would not spend a dollar for treatment of their pet not to mention time to research on how to take care of it correctly. I myself made many mistakes but the key is to learn on them and improve what you can. If you decide on another one I am confident that you will give him good home and care.
 

teresaf

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Using Coco choir substrate holds moisture better. You can get bricks of it on Amazon. Just mix with a bunch of water. Make it wet all the way through and place 4 inch deep. With lights on just top layer will dry out. If more dries out don't just mist but POUR water in corners. The more airtight you keep the enclosure the less humidity and heat Escape. Don't worry about him not having enough air because you open the enclosure at least twice a day anyway which exchanges the air.

You need accurate temp control so accurate temp readings are needed. If just a couple degrees too cold URI can happen. I used these with my babies because they're digital and the mechanism stay outside the tank there for moisture cannot get inside the mechanism and change the readings.. just drop the Probes in different parts of the tank and put mechanism beside the tank or on it and you always know what the temperature in different areas is without taking the lid off. The enclosure is always hotter with the lid on so when you take the lid off to take the readings the readings you can't will be cooler. The dial type button stick on thermometer/hygrometers are not good for high humidity applications.
 

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Thomas Lamar

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Using Coco choir substrate holds moisture better. You can get bricks of it on Amazon. Just mix with a bunch of water. Make it wet all the way through and place 4 inch deep. With lights on just top layer will dry out. If more dries out don't just mist but POUR water in corners. The more airtight you keep the enclosure the less humidity and heat Escape. Don't worry about him not having enough air because you open the enclosure at least twice a day anyway which exchanges the air.

You need accurate temp control so accurate temp readings are needed. If just a couple degrees too cold URI can happen. I used these with my babies because they're digital and the mechanism stay outside the tank there for moisture cannot get inside the mechanism and change the readings.. just drop the Probes in different parts of the tank and put mechanism beside the tank or on it and you always know what the temperature in different areas is without taking the lid off. The enclosure is always hotter with the lid on so when you take the lid off to take the readings the readings you can't will be cooler. The dial type button stick on thermometer/hygrometers are not good for high humidity applications.

I am thinking that next time, an aquarium hood with appropriate light fixtures as well as a substrate change is in order. I was using a laser thermometer to read the temps in the enclosure through the mesh lid in the days before he passed.

On another note, adult leopards don't have such high humidity requirements, as well as habitat micromanagement? Just curious. Because trying to do this enclosure management for a much larger animal may prove tricky.
 

teresaf

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Adult ones do not require the high humidity that the babies do and they can handle cooler temperatures. However that being said, they need the special treatment until they're mostly done growing or they become pyramided.
 

Thomas Lamar

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Adult ones do not require the high humidity that the babies do and they can handle cooler temperatures. However that being said, they need the special treatment until they're mostly done growing or they become pyramided.

Thanks for the info! They can grow for decades though right? Or mostly just major growth early in life is what you are referring to?
 

Kasia

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Thanks for the info! They can grow for decades though right? Or mostly just major growth early in life is what you are referring to?
Probably first 1,5 - 2 years will be crucial for their growth and they will need more fuss over soaking and higher humidity levels. Do you have space for an outdoor enclosure when he will grow up?
 

Thomas Lamar

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Probably first 1,5 - 2 years will be crucial for their growth and they will need more fuss over soaking and higher humidity levels. Do you have space for an outdoor enclosure when he will grow up?

Space, yes. But his ability to be outside will be limited to summer months with a heated hide box. Where I live, it's below 50° outside from October to March. We only get warmer summer weather from May-August, maybe into September if we are lucky. So I will need to build a suitable indoor enclosure as well, as the leo will be spending at least a few months each year indoors.

And I am sorry, did you mean years 1-5, or 15.5 years foe the growth rate?
 

Tom

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Hi Thomas. I'm glad you found us and sorry its under such sad circumstances. I'll share some tid bits addressing your specific question and try to offer some explanation. Your story is a common one, and I wonder how many people we've lost from the tortoise world over the years because of this sort of thing. I nearly quit a few years back because of my failures, and because no one could explain what was going wrong even though I was doing everything "right" according to the books and the experts.

The most likely cause of your little one's demise here was failure on the breeder or sellers part to care for this baby correctly. Its a lot of work to care for a baby correctly, and few people do it right. Add to this the fact that the seller was mixing species indiscriminately, and you have a recipe for disaster. Here is a likely explanation for what happened: http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/hatchling-failure-syndrome.23493/
By contrast, here is how it should be done: http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/how-to-incubate-eggs-and-start-hatchlings.124266/

Here are a few bits of info in random order:
1. Don't use those double hoods. You need ambient heat over the middle and basking heat at one end. I prefer these hoods and they are cheaper than pet store stuff: http://www.homedepot.com/p/Designer...RCH=REC-_-rv_homepage_rr-_-NA-_-204667675-_-N
2. I've seen eye problems many times from those cfl type UV bulbs. I recommend you not use those. Use a long tube type instead. This might be the source of your eye problems. And if the eyes are burned by that light, it makes them not want to eat or be active in a normal way. I'm only listing this as a possibility. You eye issue might also have been do to other factors, or it could be a combo of factors. Better to use something safer and more effective, and eliminate a variable next time.
3. Don't use a screen on top. Hang your bulbs so you can adjust the height. Using this method, I use 65 watt flood bulbs and I simply adjust the height of the bulb to get the correct basking temp under it. Far less desiccation this way.
4. I think a 20 gallon is too small. 40 is the absolute minimum size that I will use to start a tiny hatchling.
5. Open tops make things very difficult, as you've seen. Buy or build a closed chamber instead. Makes your life easier, and the tortoises life better.
6. No amount of vet care or money is going to save a poorly started baby with damaged kidneys. Force feeding and antibiotics is almost always a death sentence for the little ones. They can't handle it. Tiny babies that were started poorly need to make it on their own, or not. Give them daily soaks and the correct conditions and some will pull through while others don't. Every one wants to spend money, go to the vet and "do something", but as you've seen, where does that get you? It doesn't work. The best team of tortoise vets in the world and a million dollar vet bill will not save a baby whose kidneys have been fried by a breeder who is ignorant, or a seller that houses them incorrectly and doesn't care for them correctly. This is the harsh reality of life for a dry started baby. Avoid those breeders and sellers. Buy from people who do it right, now that you know the difference.
7. Your substrate, water source, diet and supplement routine all sounded good.
8. Run the CHE on a thermostat.
9. Open half logs don't hold in humidity well. You need something with a smaller opening and no opening in back.
10. I've never been able to use moss in a hide because all my baby tortoises try to eat it.

I hope all things things help with your stated goal of increasing your knowledge for the future. Reading those two threads above will help you understand what questions to ask the breeder when you are ready to buy again. Don't buy from someone who keeps the babies outside all day, doesn't soak every day, or uses a dry substrate under their babies. The breeder should also be introducing a multitude of different foods to their babies.

Here are more tips that I hope will help:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/beginner-mistakes.45180/
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/how-to-raise-a-healthy-sulcata-or-leopard-version-2-0.79895/

I know you had a leopard, but this thread still applies. Just use less emphasis on grass unless you get a South African Leopard.
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/for-those-who-have-a-young-sulcata.76744/
 

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