Why do some hatchlings die?

[dmmj]

Now before I start this debate I want to make it clear I am not pointing fingers at anyone. OK?

So we have had some hatchlings die lately and I assume there are various reasons, they were raised dry before people got them, they arrived sick or what have you. I was wondering if there was another reason why, and that is maybe people are breeding to many for healthy tortoises? In the wild only a small percentage make it to be born and then a smaller number makes it into adulthood, ( through natural predation, or simply dieing). I know we have some people on here who have science backgrounds and others who have been breeding for many many years now, so what are your thoughts is it another reason why some die and some don't? are we (collectively) maybe breeding more than we should? now once again I am not pointing fingers at anyone I am simply curious and wondered what others thought?

 

[Angi]

RE: Whhy do some hatchlings die?

I have no idea, but I noticed at a pet store once the hatchlings living on rabbit pellets with no hides. This can't be a good way to start them. BTW~ The lady didn't wan't to listen to anything I had to say.

 

[terryo]

RE: Whhy do some hatchlings die?

This is a good question David, and one I would be interested in too. Any eggs I find in the box turtle garden...if I find any, I'll be taking them in this time. I never used to. I guess what ever answer we do get would pertain to boxies as well as tortoises (?).

 

[Maggie Cummings]

RE: Whhy do some hatchlings die?

I think part of it is the female doesn't get enough calcium, so the hatchlings she has are weak to start with. I used to foster Gopherus agassizii for my sister and I wish I had kept track of how many soft hatchlings she gave me. Plastrons that felt like tissue paper. In the wild that whole clutch would die. With me most lived. I would keep them for a year then she would adopt them out. I often wish she had kept track of them in their new homes.

Why is this in the debate section David?

 

[dmmj]

RE: Whhy do some hatchlings die?

I put it in the debate section so people can talk about it and have no fears of anything all opinions are welcome.

 

[October]

RE: Whhy do some hatchlings die?

I agree with Maggie. I don't necessarily believe it's the amount so much as the condition of the mother. Not enough nutrients to pass on to the young.

 

[Tom]

RE: Whhy do some hatchlings die?

I believe in most cases, its operator error. And most of those times I believe the operator error occurs at the breeders. There are, as always, exceptions. None of my hatchlings ever die. One of my new females has laid two clutches of fairly thin shelled eggs. So thin that over half of them broke when she dropped them into the nest. I've only had her a few months and she was 80 pounds when I got her, so we're obviously dealing with something long term. She's also a bit misshapen. Don't get me wrong, I love her to death, but a perfect specimen, she is not. Anyhow, about half of her eggs show some development and should be hatching in the next few weeks. If the poorly cared for, calcium deficient mother is a big factor, we will soon see. A whole bunch of my "normal" healthy hatchlings are out there now for comparison's sake, and I have 11 still too. We'll be able to compare these new ones from the "compromised" female to ones from two other "normal" females.

 

[Neal]

RE: Whhy do some hatchlings die?

I think this a pretty complex topic to say the least. This past year was my first experience with incubating eggs and hatching out babies. I grew up raising box turtles, but never incubated eggs and I never had a single death (that I was told about after they were sold) and my group probably hatched out several hundred. I have only hatched out 8 leopards this year out of 50+ eggs, and I have lost 2. The first to die seemed pretty normal, not a big eater, but was growing and appeared active. The second one hatched out early and came from an egg that was half the size of my other ones, ate pretty well, but did not handle shipping very well and became ill very quickly. When these two were with me, they were being cared for properly, and when they went with their new owners, I can assume quite reasonably that they were cared for properly as well so what went wrong?

Personally, I think in my case it had to do with the incubation process. My incubator is a piece of junk, never holds a constant temperature, so that and also my toddler aged daughter managed to get to the incubator and bump the temperature up to 100+ for a couple of days. I was pretty reckless too, candling them every freakin' day. Who knows really if all that played any factor to the death of the two. But, from where I sit, it is the only explanation. And so my submission to the topic of your thread DMMJ is that the whole egg development process needs to be "right" in order to produce strong hatchlings. I've discussed this with a few others and they would agree to that as well, but I submit this is my opinion only.

 

[EricIvins]

RE: Whhy do some hatchlings die?

Congenital defects happen.......Not everything that hatches is meant to live a full, happy life........

I've seen plenty of poorly calcified Eggs hatch and be perfect animals......Where there's life, there's death, and vice versa.......No need to really over think this.......Hatchlings die, juvies die, adults die.......Nothing is made to live forever.......

 

[Az tortoise compound]

RE: Whhy do some hatchlings die?

Obviously, there are a million answers to this question.....

The one thing that drastically improved our survival rate was changing incubation temps. Instead of a constant temp, we incubate at higher temps in the beginning and then dial the temps down towards the end. This has produced higher ratios of females and less mis-scuted animals. Humidity is also key, too dry and they end up wrinkly with a thick, sticky membrane and they seem to be more sickly.

 

[River14]

RE: Whhy do some hatchlings die?

Interesting no one mentions genetic poverty. Or that perhaps generation after generation of weak soft hatchlings is going to make weak badly developed youngsters and adults. If there is a problem with the egg the hatchlings are going to have problems and so the eggs should be scrambled before they develop otherwise it could just be perpetuating the problem. Even if it is a problem of management. One should surely wait until the mother is healthy before breeding with her to ensure the strongest clutches possible???

 

[ascott]

RE: Whhy do some hatchlings die?

I wonder if the reason that tortoises lay so many eggs/so many times in a season is to account for natural loss.....I only know about CDTs and I know that they will lay a number of eggs a couple/few times in anticipation (speculated in anticipation) of loss of a lot and survival of few...Just my shared opinion. .....

 

[River14]

RE: Whhy do some hatchlings die?

I think predators should in the main take care of that Ascott yes weak hatchlings too but any hatchlings honestly?

 

[-EJ]

RE: Whhy do some hatchlings die?

Failure to thrive is the greatest copout... Most will thrive given the proper conditions. Some are not meant to survive... but I think that is a small percentage.

Why I've jumped on this Complete Pelleted diet kick is because of this question. Feeding a natural diet to a hatchling is extremely difficult. This is more true for the beginner keeper. People jump up and down... natural diet... natural diet... Well... I believe this is the greatest killer of tortoises under one year of age. The biggest factor... Oxalic acid. Stop and think about the size of the kidney of a hatchling anything. You can see how easy it is to wipe out the kidney. You really have to know your plants and focus on those low in oxalic acid... with Complete Pelleted diets... this is not a concern.

Notice how many of those that have died start out with... my tortoise is sluggish... the shell is getting soft... these are distinct signs of renal failure... what is causing them to fail... a natural diet... an improper natural diet.

 

[John]

RE: Whhy do some hatchlings die?

Excellent point Ed..........I think as many have stated there are a great many reason's things die. In my particular situation It was hard headedness, bad choices and some bad luck.
First off when I decided to purchase a tortoise I went to a reptile show, I walked past several animals browsing and decided to purchase the one that looked to me as if it was not being cared for properly(it was a rescue in a way). My second animal came from Richard Fife, That purchase I believe looking back came on the name of the breeder.( after reading the Fife's book I had to have one of thier tortoises). The third was my second huge mistake I acquired this one from a large distributor out of southern cal. Now all of this I believe took place shortly before finding the forum, and due partly to hard headedness and lack of information all three torts were kept in one enclosure, they all seemed healthy and eating, except the third one which spent alot of time sleeping. Not long after getting the third animal, the first one developed a uri, off to the vet we went and ran the baytril injection thing the tort recovered and is still alive today. Some time later the third animal became sick ( uri). Unfortunately this animal had a reaction to the injection and died from it ( I was very fond of this animal). anyway to this day i can not be sure which if any of my original animals are carriers, the first one was in a tub with sulcata hatchlings when I purchased it ( it was priced very cheap by the way) I am sure the Fife animal was not the cause and it was the only guaranteed healthy animal I aquired, the third one that died is very suspect to me since through meeting people over the past few months I have gained some insight into how the wholesale trade operates, and I assure you the health and well being of the animals is the last concern. So due to all this my original animals are permanently quarentined they have no contact in any way with any of my other animals, and that is how it will always be.

---

I think part of it is the female doesn't get enough calcium, so the hatchlings she has are weak to start with. I used to foster Gopherus agassizii for my sister and I wish I had kept track of how many soft hatchlings she gave me. Plastrons that felt like tissue paper. In the wild that whole clutch would die. With me most lived. I would keep them for a year then she would adopt them out. I often wish she had kept track of them in their new homes.

Why is this in the debate section David?

(statement meant to inflame removed by moderator)

 

[-EJ]

RE: Whhy do some hatchlings die?

I really don't know what to make of your post but I have to state...

I have no problem saying that the Fifes are one of the best sources of tortoises you will find.

I'm guessing you found a bad one. I've been there. I've took in or bought animals that took out the group. That is the chance you take.

Excellent point Ed..........I think as many have stated there are a great many reason's things die. In my particular situation It was hard headedness, bad choices and some bad luck.
First off when I decided to purchase a tortoise I went to a reptile show, I walked past several animals browsing and decided to purchase the one that looked to me as if it was not being cared for properly(it was a rescue in a way). My second animal came from Richard Fife, That purchase I believe looking back came on the name of the breeder.( after reading the Fife's book I had to have one of thier tortoises). The third was my second huge mistake I acquired this one from a large distributor out of southern cal. Now all of this I believe took place shortly before finding the forum, and due partly to hard headedness and lack of information all three torts were kept in one enclosure, they all seemed healthy and eating, except the third one which spent alot of time sleeping. Not long after getting the third animal, the first one developed a uri, off to the vet we went and ran the baytril injection thing the tort recovered and is still alive today. Some time later the third animal became sick ( uri). Unfortunately this animal had a reaction to the injection and died from it ( I was very fond of this animal). anyway to this day i can not be sure which if any of my original animals are carriers, the first one was in a tub with sulcata hatchlings when I purchased it ( it was priced very cheap by the way) I am sure the Fife animal was not the cause and it was the only guaranteed healthy animal I aquired, the third one that died is very suspect to me since through meeting people over the past few months I have gained some insight into how the wholesale trade operates, and I assure you the health and well being of the animals is the last concern. So due to all this my original animals are permanently quarentined they have no contact in any way with any of my other animals, and that is how it will always be.

 

[John]

RE: Whhy do some hatchlings die?

Don't misunderstand Ed, I am in no way saying the animal that came from the Fifes is suspect here, I believe it was one of the other two and am leaning toward the one that died, unfortunately the Fife animal has had contact and will remain quarentined also.

 

[River14]

RE: Whhy do some hatchlings die?

Failure to thrive is the greatest copout... Most will thrive given the proper conditions. Some are not meant to survive... but I think that is a small percentage.

Why I've jumped on this Complete Pelleted diet kick is because of this question. Feeding a natural diet to a hatchling is extremely difficult. This is more true for the beginner keeper. People jump up and down... natural diet... natural diet... Well... I believe this is the greatest killer of tortoises under one year of age. The biggest factor... Oxalic acid. Stop and think about the size of the kidney of a hatchling anything. You can see how easy it is to wipe out the kidney. You really have to know your plants and focus on those low in oxalic acid... with Complete Pelleted diets... this is not a concern.

Notice how many of those that have died start out with... my tortoise is sluggish... the shell is getting soft... these are distinct signs of renal failure... what is causing them to fail... a natural diet... an improper natural diet.

Posting freak this is very interesting and I think I fully agree with you about oxalic acid.

Im going for the natural diet as I have no choice in the matter there is no tortoise pellets available here. In the main my hatchlings (Indian stars) are grazing rough growing grass, plus hay and the odd rare treat like guava and ochra flowers and fresh leaves They get natural sun and high humidity. There is certainly a small amount of oxalic acid in there.

I think mainly 9o% grass grazing for the Stars is the way to go, this they would get in spring anyway in the wild after the rains.

I honestly dont think a wild diet like they would eat in the wild under favourable conditions is going to kill little hatchlings. Im not sure what a natural diet is but I assume this is it. I've yet to find out of course if they thrive and live, so far so good.

Most hatchlings will die because of predation or lack of food due to drought or other extremely hostile conditions like exposure to too much heat or cold etc but never from a single diet high in a single chemical. This is so easy to happen in artificial environs though. Plus diseases passed on in unhygienic conditions where other tortoises have lived or even breathed.
They might be bred in the perfect conditions then suddenly find themselves removed from that and placed in something rather different, that is in someone's home set up as good as it might be. I think this transition is maybe very disruptive too.

Could it be that torts should absolutely not be sold below a certain age? Wouldn't this alone save many many little lives?

Baby tortoises will nibble anything in moderation in the wild I should imagine even poison plants and they seem to live through it all if they are lucky not to die of other causes, their little kidneys processing minute amounts of poison every day including oxalic acid.

I am sure a constant diet of just Oxalic acid rich veg isn't going to work.

In Africa I've seen stunted, large and old and hatchling tortoises, however all have been just perfectly formed tortoises no obvious dietary problems at all.

 

[John]

RE: Whhy do some hatchlings die?

Excellent point Ed..........I think as many have stated there are a great many reason's things die. In my particular situation It was hard headedness, bad choices and some bad luck.
First off when I decided to purchase a tortoise I went to a reptile show, I walked past several animals browsing and decided to purchase the one that looked to me as if it was not being cared for properly(it was a rescue in a way). My second animal came from Richard Fife, That purchase I believe looking back came on the name of the breeder.( after reading the Fife's book I had to have one of thier tortoises). The third was my second huge mistake I acquired this one from a large distributor out of southern cal. Now all of this I believe took place shortly before finding the forum, and due partly to hard headedness and lack of information all three torts were kept in one enclosure, they all seemed healthy and eating, except the third one which spent alot of time sleeping. Not long after getting the third animal, the first one developed a uri, off to the vet we went and ran the baytril injection thing the tort recovered and is still alive today. Some time later the third animal became sick ( uri). Unfortunately this animal had a reaction to the injection and died from it ( I was very fond of this animal). anyway to this day i can not be sure which if any of my original animals are carriers, the first one was in a tub with sulcata hatchlings when I purchased it ( it was priced very cheap by the way) I am sure the Fife animal was not the cause and it was the only guaranteed healthy animal I aquired, the third one that died is very suspect to me since through meeting people over the past few months I have gained some insight into how the wholesale trade operates, and I assure you the health and well being of the animals is the last concern. So due to all this my original animals are permanently quarentined they have no contact in any way with any of my other animals, and that is how it will always be.

---

I think part of it is the female doesn't get enough calcium, so the hatchlings she has are weak to start with. I used to foster Gopherus agassizii for my sister and I wish I had kept track of how many soft hatchlings she gave me. Plastrons that felt like tissue paper. In the wild that whole clutch would die. With me most lived. I would keep them for a year then she would adopt them out. I often wish she had kept track of them in their new homes.

Why is this in the debate section David?

(statement meant to inflame removed by moderator)

---

I completely disagree, My statement was an honest question, If a person states one thing that is not consistant with other statements don't forum members have a right to question? After all this is the debate section as started by the op

 

[coreyc]

RE: Whhy do some hatchlings die?

Excellent point Ed..........I think as many have stated there are a great many reason's things die. In my particular situation It was hard headedness, bad choices and some bad luck.
First off when I decided to purchase a tortoise I went to a reptile show, I walked past several animals browsing and decided to purchase the one that looked to me as if it was not being cared for properly(it was a rescue in a way). My second animal came from Richard Fife, That purchase I believe looking back came on the name of the breeder.( after reading the Fife's book I had to have one of thier tortoises). The third was my second huge mistake I acquired this one from a large distributor out of southern cal. Now all of this I believe took place shortly before finding the forum, and due partly to hard headedness and lack of information all three torts were kept in one enclosure, they all seemed healthy and eating, except the third one which spent alot of time sleeping. Not long after getting the third animal, the first one developed a uri, off to the vet we went and ran the baytril injection thing the tort recovered and is still alive today. Some time later the third animal became sick ( uri). Unfortunately this animal had a reaction to the injection and died from it ( I was very fond of this animal). anyway to this day i can not be sure which if any of my original animals are carriers, the first one was in a tub with sulcata hatchlings when I purchased it ( it was priced very cheap by the way) I am sure the Fife animal was not the cause and it was the only guaranteed healthy animal I aquired, the third one that died is very suspect to me since through meeting people over the past few months I have gained some insight into how the wholesale trade operates, and I assure you the health and well being of the animals is the last concern. So due to all this my original animals are permanently quarentined they have no contact in any way with any of my other animals, and that is how it will always be.

---

I think part of it is the female doesn't get enough calcium, so the hatchlings she has are weak to start with. I used to foster Gopherus agassizii for my sister and I wish I had kept track of how many soft hatchlings she gave me. Plastrons that felt like tissue paper. In the wild that whole clutch would die. With me most lived. I would keep them for a year then she would adopt them out. I often wish she had kept track of them in their new homes.

Why is this in the debate section David?

(statement meant to inflame removed by moderator)

---

I completely disagree, My statement was an honest question, If a person states one thing that is not consistant with other statements don't forum members have a right to question? After all this is the debate section as started by the op

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I agree it was a harmless question