worried about inactive tortoise (in NE) - please advise!

[Dorrie Siu]

From what I understand Russians can tolerate the temps that you have. So I would not think that you are cooking him.

"Indoors, Russian tortoises can be maintained at normal room temperatures: 68 to 80 degrees. They should also have access to an area heated by an overhead light. This spot should be in the 90- to 100-degree range."

http://www.tortoisesupply.com/RussianTortoiseCare

 

[lismar79]

I am sure you have seen this but just in case...http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread-80698.html

I keep my russian at a range of 70( night) to 95 in basking. Cool hide that is burried at 68 and warm one at 85. Most of the tank is high70 low 80. I use a temp gun as well & get pretty accurate reads compared to thermometer. My humidity is between 30 & 50 dependind when I spray.

Things that my tort would eat when sick- yellow squash, butternutt squash, pumkin (canned) & mazuri.

Praying for your little one.

 

[Dorrie Siu]

FYI I just remembered that there was another person that I met in another group who was treating her tort for pin worms and she was really worried because hers was not eating or very active either. You have to remember that her body is going through a lot of changes right now with the medication and things inside her are not feeling well. Nobody wants to eat when their tummy is all wonky. If this were my tort I would continue with the baby food soaks and wait for the medication to do its thing. Don't forget that because she's not taking in much, she's not going to poop much. If anything, all the yuckies will come out.

 

[mikeh]

First of your husband is correct. Infrared temp gun measures surface temperature.

By measuring temperatures of top, bottom, deepest point of leg/shell and taking an average of those numbers will "roughly" yield torts core temp.


The readings in your post show average of 87F which would be roughly the core temp. That is too high for night time for adult Russian. It also shows the heat is coming from the under tank heaters. If under tank heaters are under most of the aquarium the tort may have hard time to find cool spot even if it wants to.

Adult Russian needs to cool down at night. Night temp of 65-70F is ideal. I would discontinue use of under tank heaters, especially at night, CHE as well unless the room gets below 60-65F. The tort needs to be able to cool down during night time hours.

During the day the tort should be able to thermo regulate and be able to raise its core to at least 90+F and higher if it desires. Creating 100F basking spot on one end will allow it to do so. A cool end of 75-80F for day time for when the tort wants to cool down. Some torts will cycle between hot and cool ends, others may find ideal temp such as warm hide and just hang in there most of the day appearing to be sick, while they are just comfortable only moving to eat/drink.

I am not sure if the temperatures being less then ideal were the cause of inactivity but at least you can be certain that your temperatures are now correct. You can try moving the hide to cool side to see any change in torts behavior .

Is the tort alert when soaked and handled? Is he strong? Is he eating?

 

[CrystalsFamily]

FYI I just remembered that there was another person that I met in another group who was treating her tort for pin worms and she was really worried because hers was not eating or very active either. You have to remember that her body is going through a lot of changes right now with the medication and things inside her are not feeling well. Nobody wants to eat when their tummy is all wonky. If this were my tort I would continue with the baby food soaks and wait for the medication to do its thing. Don't forget that because she's not taking in much, she's not going to poop much. If anything, all the yuckies will come out.

True that he's barely pooping, just enough that I know he's not blocked. (Crystal is a boy -- logic of a 5 year old.) But the vet said that if the meds were working, she would expect to see some change in 7 days, and that's today. No change. I will call and talk to her today about that and also about the fact that I have learned the tank has been warmer than I thought, probably from Day 1.

---

First of your husband is correct. Infrared temp gun measures surface temperature.

By measuring temperatures of top, bottom, deepest point of leg/shell and taking an average of those numbers will "roughly" yield torts core temp.


The readings in your post show average of 87F which would be roughly the core temp. That is too high for night time for adult Russian. It also shows the heat is coming from the under tank heaters. If under tank heaters are under most of the aquarium the tort may have hard time to find cool spot even if it wants to.

Adult Russian needs to cool down at night. Night temp of 65-70F is ideal. I would discontinue use of under tank heaters, especially at night, CHE as well unless the room gets below 60-65F. The tort needs to be able to cool down during night time hours.

During the day the tort should be able to thermo regulate and be able to raise its core to at least 90+F and higher if it desires. Creating 100F basking spot on one end will allow it to do so. A cool end of 75-80F for day time for when the tort wants to cool down. Some torts will cycle between hot and cool ends, others may find ideal temp such as warm hide and just hang in there most of the day appearing to be sick, while they are just comfortable only moving to eat/drink.

I am not sure if the temperatures being less then ideal were the cause of inactivity but at least you can be certain that your temperatures are now correct. You can try moving the hide to cool side to see any change in torts behavior .

Is the tort alert when soaked and handled? Is he strong? Is he eating?

When soaked, eyes are open but he doesn't move around much. His muscles are not wasting, but he moves slowly. He has not really eaten, except the two days when he nibbled, for 17 days now. (This was following a week and a half of healthy appetite and activity.)

I do actually know all this about the temp ranges. I just was working with incorrect numbers until you advised better ways to check them. That left thermo seems to be consistently 10 degrees low, and I had been using it (because it's velcroed) to test substrate temps. It probably would have been time to discontinue some of the heat sources anyway, as Spring seems to have actually arrived this week (but may not stay consistently). There is a part of the tank that stays in the mid-70s despite the two under tanks. We added the second because the first weekend we had him home, it seemed temps were staying in the 60s in much of the tank and that didn't seem warm enough. And then the CHE for nighttime temps in 70s instead of 60s when we were advised to warm that tort up. But as I said, all my readings were off! We also have a dimmer switch we can use on one of the heat sources to regulate more subtly. The tank seems a little small for this, but I think I will try to add a second, smaller hide on the cool side. BTW, I don't actually see any reason to have thermometers if we have an infrared gun.

THIS MORNING'S TEMPS: tortoise is 74-77. Substrate ranges from 75-101. Directly under basking lamp just measured 112, so I raised the lamp higher from the substrate. (Again, it's probably always been too hot there!!) I will make sure it's down to about 100 before I leave the house today.

BIG QUESTION: If it's inability to regulate temp that's caused the inactivity and lack of appetite, how long would folks expect it to take for him to perk up? (It's almost painful to hope again. Also, we have a vacation the 16th, and I'd really like it if I could know by then if he is recovering.)

I am less tortured by worry than I was last night, and I am taking it that no one thinks I have probably "cooked" the tortoise, ie, damaged his internal organs? Will also ask vet today.

---

I am sure you have seen this but just in case...http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread-80698.html

I keep my russian at a range of 70( night) to 95 in basking. Cool hide that is burried at 68 and warm one at 85. Most of the tank is high70 low 80. I use a temp gun as well & get pretty accurate reads compared to thermometer. My humidity is between 30 & 50 dependind when I spray.

Things that my tort would eat when sick- yellow squash, butternutt squash, pumkin (canned) & mazuri.

Praying for your little one.

Thank you, yes, I have read that care sheet and many many others. It's not that I wasn't aware of proper temps, but that they were being measured inaccurately (doh!!!!!). Thanks for the food suggestions. May try pumpkin! Thanks for your wishes.

 

[CrystalsFamily]

We are now monitoring temps closely with the infrared gun. It will take some trial and error, but we are definitely in a better zone now. Also have the hide positioned to have a definite warm end and a cool end, now that I can measure each end. The vet feels the high temps could account for the inactivity, and thinks he would bounce back from that within about a week, perhaps only a few days. Said keep doing frequent soaks (of course). Once again, crossing fingers. I hesitate to even say it, as it could be my hopeful imagination, but I think he was a tad perkier this evening.

 

[lismar79]

That's great. Hope this was the answer.! Keep us posted.

 

[CrystalsFamily]

First of your husband is correct. Infrared temp gun measures surface temperature.

By measuring temperatures of top, bottom, deepest point of leg/shell and taking an average of those numbers will "roughly" yield torts core temp.


The readings in your post show average of 87F which would be roughly the core temp. That is too high for night time for adult Russian.

Can you tell me roughly what the daytime and nighttime body temps should be? (Do you have a source for that?)

---

It also shows the heat is coming from the under tank heaters. If under tank heaters are under most of the aquarium the tort may have hard time to find cool spot even if it wants to.

And to clarify... the under tank heaters are under about 1/2 the tank (maybe a little more), in the center, so there has always been a section of the tank, away from the bulb, that was not directly heated. (But I never saw Crystal hanging out there -- ??) The worst overheating problem was, not surprisingly, where the basking lamp and the under tank overlap. For the day today, one heater was off and the other at half power. I will go check now to see whether there's any need for a little more heat than that for nighttime.

And... mikeh, thank you. I'm grateful you stepped in with this specific guidance about temp measurement. Really, really wish we had known better.

 

[mikeh]

Give it few days with new(correct) temps to see if there is any improvement.

Not sure if I recall correctly, I think Petco or PetSmart will refund the cost of vets visit if the tortoise had to be treated for any health issues.

Ps: I tried to reply to your pm. It says your PMs are disabled.

 

[CrystalsFamily]

Give it few days with new(correct) temps to see if there is any improvement.

Not sure if I recall correctly, I think Petco or PetSmart will refund the cost of vets visit if the tortoise had to be treated for any health issues.

Ps: I tried to reply to your pm. It says your PMs are disabled.

Petsmart offers that guarantee only for the first 2 weeks.

 

[Dorrie Siu]

Not that it matters now but PetSmart told me that they would have me return the tortoise, they would administer care, then I would have to buy her back. When I asked why, they said that "in case something happens...".

I heard (from someone in the business) that they won't spend more on treatments than they sell them for - that it was cheaper to just put down the one you are bringing in and sell you another one: REPLACEMENT.

When I was told that, it made sense as to why I would have to return her.

 

[CrystalsFamily]

Not that it matters now but PetSmart told me that they would have me return the tortoise, they would administer care, then I would have to buy her back. When I asked why, they said that "in case something happens...".

I heard (from someone in the business) that they won't spend more on treatments than they sell them for - that it was cheaper to just put down the one you are bringing in and sell you another one: REPLACEMENT.

When I was told that, it made sense as to why I would have to return her.

Oh yuck. I never figured I would take advantage of that guarantee in any case. It was part of the reason I considered taking him in for an early checkup even when he appeared healthy, but I decided not to because it would have been needlessly stressful for him. But I think ultimately I would have wanted to use my own vet in any case.

 

[CrystalsFamily]

Well, it's 21 days tomorrow of not eating more than a few nibbles total, and 4 full days of verified good temps with no change whatsoever. It's no longer feeling like there's anything I can do. It's very sad and very frustrating. The vet basically said that the next step would be to go to a vet hospital farther from home for expensive tests (potentially harmful in the case of taking blood from such a small creature) with little promise of diagnosis and even less of there being a treatment. That doesn't sound like a sensible course to take. Does anyone see that differently for any reason? Have any more suggestions??

[And, if you can believe it, writing this post was interrupted by a trip to the emergency room for my 5 year old to get 5 stitches to the chin.]

 

[lismar79]

Have you tried mazuri? It was the only thing I could get a very sick rescue sulcata I had to eat when he refused everything else. Squash was the other. My vet recommended trying any thing yellow, orange, or red to stimulate eating too. Keep up with bapy food soaks and give it a little more time. It takes a while to see changes in torts.

 

[CrystalsFamily]

Have you tried mazuri? It was the only thing I could get a very sick rescue sulcata I had to eat when he refused everything else. Squash was the other. My vet recommended trying any thing yellow, orange, or red to stimulate eating too. Keep up with bapy food soaks and give it a little more time. It takes a while to see changes in torts.

Thanks for the encouragement. I have tried squash, zucchini (every day, it was formerly his fave), cut grape tomatoes, blueberries, strawberry, watermelon, canned pumpkin. He seems so utterly uninterested that it's hard for me to believe it could be just a matter of enticing him at this point. But I will order some Mazuri (can't find it locally).

 

[mikeh]

I am getting frustrated with you. So, onto more troubleshooting. I reread all the post from the beginning. Just to go over other possibilities.

1)Are you still using chemicals to sanitize his soaking dish? Any chemicals may leach into most dishes, drinking could be making him sick. If you feel you must sterilize the soaking dish, pour boiling water on the dish.

2) The vet discounted URI?

3) Are you sure this is a male and not an egg bound female?

What's the update? Does he move around on his own to bask/ to warm up and cool down?

 

[CrystalsFamily]

I am getting frustrated with you. So, onto more troubleshooting. I reread all the post from the beginning. Just to go over other possibilities.

1)Are you still using chemicals to sanitize his soaking dish? Any chemicals may leach into most dishes, drinking could be making him sick. If you feel you must sterilize the soaking dish, pour boiling water on the dish.

2) The vet discounted URI?

3) Are you sure this is a male and not an egg bound female?

What's the update? Does he move around on his own to bask/ to warm up and cool down?

1) I am using a dilute bleach/water solution (8%) to sterilize the plastic dish he soaks in, since he does sometimes poop in it (not for a while now), and rinsing it very well and letting it air dry between soaks. I only use it on the bottom of the food dish and the water dish, where they have contacted the substrate (not that he's eating or drinking off of them anyway). I will consider switching to boiling water for the soaking dish. But I thought dilute bleach was pretty common practice, and I'd obviously have to get something other than plastic to use.
2) The vet ruled out URI because there has been no discharge from the nose, mouth, or eyes and no apparent difficulty breathing. She also said the inside of his mouth looked very healthy. She thought he looked pretty healthy overall externally.
3) Based on this thread, http://tortoiseforum.org/threads/sexing-the-russian-tortoise-conversation-thread.86957/#post-811951, I feel fairly confident from the length and shape of his tail that he is a male. I can post pics tomorrow. Would there be particular signs of being egg bound?

He doesn't move around much, maybe goes in and out of the direct warmth of the basking light 2-3 times a day from what I can tell, but never goes to the cooler side of the tank. He almost always keeps his eyes closed unless touched, seems asleep. After he's been soaking for a while, he sometimes moves his front limbs around some or rotates himself, and sometimes his front limbs seem to sort of twitch up and down slowly in the bath. I think it's odd that he's stopped going in his hide much at all, and even sleeps the night outside of it. This started shortly before I repositioned it for better temp options.

Thank you for your attention to this. I don't like hearing that you're getting frustrated with me, as I have been trying very hard and following many suggestions, because I already feel very bad about not living up to my responsibility to this animal we took into our family, and because I value your input. I'm not sure what exactly you are frustrated with, or how you thought it would be helpful to tell me that.

 

[lismar79]

I dont think mikeh ment frustrated at you, I think he ment that he was as frustated as you are, meaning sympathetically. You are really doing all you can at this point. A vet visit & bloodwork is probably the next step.

 

[Dorrie Siu]

I took at as it wasn't frustrated AT you, but frustrated ALONG with you.

 

[mikeh]

Sorry about misunderstanding. I meant it as being frustrated along with you. Its difficult to see a situation where you are clearly doing best one can, giving your 110% to care for the animal, and despite of everything seeming to be ideal the animal does not appear to be doing well.

I/we are walking with you thru the husbandry set up to eliminate any possibility of anything being off that would cause this unexplained change in activity/appetite.


The dilute bleach solution may be ok but let's eliminate the possibility that it is not.
Boiling water or vinegar and rinse well.

Russian does not require high humidity but constantly closed eyes are known to indicate very dry conditions. What does you digital hydrometer reads for humidity? Does he open his eyes when he is in the water being soaked?

I don't seem to recall if you mentioned what type of a substrate you are using. Some substrates like cedar mulch is toxic.

What are his temps these days/nights when you hit top of his shell with the temp gun.