worried about inactive tortoise (in NE) - please advise!

[CrystalsFamily]

I wish I had some good advice for you, I'm still too new to this to really know what to do. I hope Crystal recovers quickly, I'm so sorry to hear he's sick

Thanks. I appreciate the sympathy. I am heartbroken and in total dread of how it will affect my 6 year old if Crystal doesn't make it.

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I got Dorrie at Petsmart and I'm trying my best too. She hasn't really eaten much in two days, but she did nibble the weeds in her playground. She hasn't eaten much of the salad I offer her. I'm thinking that it could be because she has not gone on her walk for two days. I have not taken her outside because of the rain, I only brought her out if it's 60 degrees and above.

Otherwise she has been doing well. I have her set at night temp 60 degrees, day temp 85. Basking temp 95. Humidity runs between 40 and 50. Maybe you have it too hot?

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Is Crystal for sure a boy? I'm wondering if the yellow was a busted egg that is compacted and the contents came out.

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How long have you had Dorrie? Crystal took about 2-3 days to start eating after his trip home, and then got steadily better and more active over the course of that week. It wasn't til just after the 3 week mark that this decline started. I don't know if you are asking for any advice, or more contradictory info (there's so much online), but I have read not to take them outside unless it's warm enough to wear a sleeveless shirt (so closer to 90).

Our temps were more like 95/70 when he was doing well, 60 at night. We warmed it up because without other obvious signs of illness, the vet and the forum suggested being too cool would be the most common reason for not eating. (Based on that, I would probably keep Dorrie in for a bit and see if that helps her appetite.) I do worry that we went too far in that direction, but we're back in the middle now. 95/70 daytime and 70-75 night. Honestly, I can't find two sources that say the same thing about temps. When he was doing fine, it didn't seem like such a big issue, but now I'm obsessed over everything I could be doing wrong!

Interesting about the egg. Any idea how big that would be? This was just a little glob, not even a centimeter. Would there be a shell of some kind? My understanding is that he's a boy, based on his tail being long enough to tuck up under his shell. His belly is not concave, but I was told that might be because he's still young.

(My son really wanted me to put the little tort picture.)

 

[CrystalsFamily]

Crystal obligingly produced a little poop in the baby food soak this afternoon (first time in many days), which I can now bring with to the vet tomorrow. It is very mucusy. I gather that could mean parasites and hope it's enough to test it. I think that's the best case scenario....

 

[CrystalsFamily]

Belatedly realizing I could use some tips about how to reduce the trauma of transport....

 

[mattgrizzlybear]

I hope she/he gets better. Good luck on those test samples

 

[Dorrie Siu]

I've had Dorrie for over a month, I got her on Feb 26. This morning when I turned on her light, I waited until it got to 80 degrees and then I put her food on her tile. She ate the whole thing (The amount I gave her was the size of her shell, a pile 5 inches wide). I put her outside in her playground (it's 65 degrees outside) and she's walking around in there eating the weeds I planted.

I spoke to her vet yesterday (a reptile vet recommended on the list here - the doctor has her own tortoises) and so far I'm doing the right thing in terms of temps for her here, where we live.

Here is a video (I believe I originally saw it here) of an egg breaking after being laid. Did the yellow look like this?

[video=youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GaKrXXRTotQ[/video]

 

[CrystalsFamily]

Glad to hear Dorrie's appetite is coming back! And it sounds like you're in touch with a great vet. I liked the one I saw this morning. She thinks Crystal looks healthy externally and not nearly as on death's door as I was beginning to believe. He provided another fecal sample on her floor (good boy!), and we are crossing our fingers that they will find a parasite, as that would be so treatable. We should have results in a day or three, and I will keep doing what I have been, try to worry less until then, and let you all know what I find out.

Thanks for the video! The yellow did not look bright like that, or anywhere near that big. Based on yesterday's mucusy poop, I feel pretty sure it was just a glop of mucus, maybe mixed with some baby food carrot that got in there during a soak.

 

[CrystalsFamily]

Vet says Crystal is positive for pinworm, and that it is something of a controversy whether this is normal, helpful flora for them or not, but that since he is symptomatic, we should treat for it. Taking him in in a little while for a dose of the medication. Hope this is the right thing to do!

 

[Dorrie Siu]

Seems to me that you are moving forward in a positive way. So glad that SOMETHING was discovered. Please keep us posted, okay? Thanks.

 

[CrystalsFamily]

Seems to me that you are moving forward in a positive way. So glad that SOMETHING was discovered. Please keep us posted, okay? Thanks.

Yes, I am glad to at least have something to cross my fingers about now. Thanks for following our drama! You know I'll keep you posted!

 

[Dorrie Siu]

How is he doing today?

 

[CrystalsFamily]

How is he doing today?

Still exactly, precisely the same. The vet said that if the meds were going to help, she would expect to see a difference within a week. We're at day 3. Keep crossing fingers.

 

[Dorrie Siu]

Oh good. Will wait for the update then. Thank you

 

[CrystalsFamily]

Day 5 and still no change. I don't feel good about it. I think if anything, he's less active. I don't even think he's getting enough UV because he doesn't move around and spend time under the bulb. Not sure how he's regulating his temp at all.

The vet said the next step would be expensive, not necessarily conclusive tests at a vet hospital, and that if they did find something, it wouldn't necessarily be treatable. That doesn't sound so wise. Unless someone has other advice, I think we're just very sadly waiting for Crystal's demise.

In my seeking to understand what has gone wrong, I feel bad about buying him at Petsmart. I wonder if he was wild caught and he just can't adapt to such a dramatically different environment. (Although that wouldn't explain his seeming well and happy for a week and a half.)

 

[LoutheRussian]

Day 5 and still no change. I don't feel good about it. I think if anything, he's less active. I don't even think he's getting enough UV because he doesn't move around and spend time under the bulb. Not sure how he's regulating his temp at all.

The vet said the next step would be expensive, not necessarily conclusive tests at a vet hospital, and that if they did find something, it wouldn't necessarily be treatable. That doesn't sound so wise. Unless someone has other advice, I think we're just very sadly waiting for Crystal's demise.

In my seeking to understand what has gone wrong, I feel bad about buying him at Petsmart. I wonder if he was wild caught and he just can't adapt to such a dramatically different environment. (Although that wouldn't explain his seeming well and happy for a week and a half.)

Unfortunately I have no words of wisdom as I a new to tortoises but I've been following this thread and it breaks my heart to read it. You are such a wonderful person to do so much for crystal and I can tell by your writing how much it pains you to see crystal go through this. I will continue to send healing thoughts for crystal and thoughts of comfort for you and you family while you continue to do all you can. I'm sorry I can't be of help to you.


[TURTLE]LoutheRussian

 

[CrystalsFamily]

Unfortunately I have no words of wisdom as I a new to tortoises but I've been following this thread and it breaks my heart to read it. You are such a wonderful person to do so much for crystal and I can tell by your writing how much it pains you to see crystal go through this. I will continue to send healing thoughts for crystal and thoughts of comfort for you and you family while you continue to do all you can. I'm sorry I can't be of help to you.


[TURTLE]LoutheRussian

Thank you. I do appreciate your kind thoughts. I am afraid I am starting to check out from it a bit. But I really do think I've done a lot. We are going to be away for a week later in the month, and I have gotten a pet sitter and am investing in a setup for the lights to be on timers. We will continue to take the best care of Crystal we can for as long as he's with us. I'll forever be a tortoise mama now.

 

[mikeh]

It still looks like temps are off.

Do you mind posting photos of the whole set up including the lights/heat? Where is it located? Is it near window?

What are you using for measuring temperature and humidity? Photo please.

What is the ambient temp. in your house? (Specific in the room where the tort is)

 

[CrystalsFamily]

Here you go. It's a 30-gallon (but same floor area as a taller 40-gallon) glass terrarium, with two under tank heaters (less than ideal, I know), and 2+ inches of substrate (coco coir with repti-bark on top). At night, we swap that PowerSun in a deep dome for a ceramic heater in a shallower heat lamp (added that to under tanks to get it up from the low 60's). It is not near a window. This is New England, so ambient temps in the house vary widely (getting slowly and inconsistently warmer), but that is the warmest room in the house.

Temps consistently run 90 on the warm side (left), 95-100 under the basking lamp, and 70 on the cool side (right). At night, the whole tank has been 70-72 whenever we've checked it. Analog thermometers and hydrometer. I noticed when I took this pic that the warm side was a little under 90, and realized I had raised the lamp a little too high when I swapped them this morning. The only thing that typically changes the temps is how humid the substrate is, and that's only when measured right on the substrate.

Also pictured is a bit of food designed to entice him. Zucchini bits used to be his favorite, and I'm trying sweet potato to entice him. I have been continuing to supply salad (spring mix + varied greens + moistened grass pellets) every day, but he never touches it.

All suggestions are welcome.

 

[mikeh]

You have some good tools in your set up to work with and few things to be addressed.

1)The mechanical toy temp/humidity readers can be very inaccurate. Dual Digital temp/humidity reader (can be found in Home Depot or Lowes) is what tortoise keepers use. Inexpensive and assuring of more accurate readings.


2)Get yourself an infrared temp gun. Its about $25 at Home Depot. Many times tortoises core temp may not be able to get no where near what ambient temp is, due to all the variables. This tool will let you know/monitor tortoises shell/core temp. instead of ambient temp. This is an important tool for you given your house is on the cool side and the glass tank.

3)I would cover 2/3 of the enclosure with plexiglass, to help stabilizing temps, leaving opening for the MVB. Home Depot has some precut sizes that would work. Again inexpensive.

4)Some fake plants would be desired against the glass, bare glass walls can be stressful to some torts.

5) I don't think Russian will eat grass pellets. Try mazzuri.

6) Continue daily warm soaks. Hydration precedes appetite.

I am most curious about the infrared temp gun readings. To take an accurate readings the tortoise can NOT be under a heat light. The heat from the light will interfere with reading. Either take a measurement while tortoise is away from the heat light, or pick up the tortoise, wait 5 seconds and measure top of the shell, bottom of the shell, and inside of the rear legs.

 

[CrystalsFamily]

Mike,
Thanks for the helpful and doable suggestions!
1) Will do.
2) Did not know it was possible to take their body temp! This is exciting. Should be 80?? Or different at the 3 different sites? Or an average?
3) I usually have half the tank covered with cardboard, and have been thinking of replacing with plexiglass. It typically gives us an extra degree or two.
4) It didn't seem to stress him out before -- he stopped bumping it at all when I put up that blue tape. But will consider doing more. I had heard that they would try to eat fake plants because they're green (and look like food) -- ??
5) It's Grassland Tortoise Food, which I think is comparable to Mazzuri? I hydrate it and toss it into the salad, and when his appetite was good, he was munching it all down with the rest.
6) Soaks, check. Two or three a day, one or two with baby food.

 

[CrystalsFamily]

Ok, this is going to get really detailed and confusing. Ready? It turns out my spouse had an infrared gun at the office (!). It's almost 9 pm and dark in the room, but I just took a bunch of measurements. I know the tank is a bit warmer than usual at this time of night, probably because it was a warm day (thermo on left reading 80 instead of 70), and we have all our usual heat sources on. When I shot the infra gun at it, the reading for the thermo on the left was 90! I checked all over the substrate, and temps ranged from 77 in the coolest corner to 101 directly under the CHE.

The tortoise himself, at the 3 spots Mike mentioned, was 91-93.5. Isn't that too hot?? Is it possible this is aestivation?? Why hasn't he been hanging out in the cool side? (The hide is mostly on the warm side.....) Or have I just been cooking him slowly!!? If I have, can he recover?

I'm also confused, though, because spouse, a mechanical engineer, says the gun measures surface temp, not inside temp, so am I really getting core temp?

I don't want to be hasty or go too far in the other direction before I really understand what's going on, but I turned CHE off. That should be safe since it's warmer in the room and even relative to prior readings on the thermo. I also moved the hide so a good part of it is on the cool side. Should I work on cooling the tank down to a real 90/70 (100 basking) as measured by the gun on the substrate? What else should I do?

I am so distressed that despite having all the knowledge I needed, my execution could have been this far off.... I don't think I'm going to sleep well tonight.

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I've just checked him again at 9:40. Substrate temps are down a bit, but certainly still warm enough, if I'm to go by substrate temps. Crystal himself is 87 on the bottom, 89 at the leg, and 84 on top, which seems less alarming. I will be really glad if someone can tell me what the normal range is, and about where they should be at different times. I can get very caught up in the details.....