Gritty urates or cuttle bone being passed? Or what?

[The_Four_Toed_Edward]

Everything is still normal apart from the gritty urates on saturday. When do you think that it is safe to lay off the daily soaks and mineral oil, if ever?

Overall, what do you think, is this "medical therapy" an effective way to treat bladder stones? I mean is there effective treatment without surgery? I found this one case study where the stone increased in size after 5 months of treatment: https://meridian.allenpress.com/jhm...-Energy-Computed-Tomography-for-Diagnosis-and

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

This is when I wish I was more up on the ins and outs of bladder stones and how to treatluckily never had to deal with it! But I feel your concern through your posts bless you, keep doing what you’re doing for now and hopefully the others can help on next stepsit’s really good that he’s being his usual self though

 

[The_Four_Toed_Edward]

Not related, but spotted some mites on Edward today https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/mites-on-a-russian-tortoise.217049/

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

Not related, but spotted some mites on Edward today https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/mites-on-a-russian-tortoise.217049/

Oh bless him!

 

[The_Four_Toed_Edward]

The tick problem is over and Edward has been healthy. His weight has been hovering around 500g, 3-5 grams over or under. His appetite and activity is normal and he returns to his food plate mulriple times a day. Poops have been regular, often times at least once a day.There has been some gritty urates, maybe three since I last updated. But also some normal urine without urates.

I have been thinking, is brumation a possibility I should even consider next winter? How does brumation affect bladder stones? Can they build up and cause problems during brumation? If you have any resources I might want to look at, please share them!

 

[The_Four_Toed_Edward]

The tick problem is over and Edward has been healthy. His weight has been hovering around 500g, 3-5 grams over or under. His appetite and activity is normal and he returns to his food plate mulriple times a day. Poops have been regular, often times at least once a day.There has been some gritty urates, maybe three since I last updated. But also some normal urine without urates.

I have been thinking, is brumation a possibility I should even consider next winter? How does brumation affect bladder stones? Can they build up and cause problems during brumation? If you have any resources I might want to look at, please share them!

@Tom @Yvonne G or @zovick do you have any insight?

 

[zovick]

@Tom @Yvonne G or @zovick do you have any insight?

I have not dealt with any brumating species for many years. However, I would say to go ahead and try it if the tortoise has been acting normally for a few weeks prior to the time of brumation. Personally, I would not attempt an overly long period of time for the first try. Say maybe 8 weeks or a bit longer.

Let's see what others with more direct experience may say.

 

[The_Four_Toed_Edward]

I have not dealt with any brumating species for many years. However, I would say to go ahead and try it if the tortoise has been acting normally for a few weeks prior to the time of brumation. Personally, I would not attempt an overly long period of time for the first try. Say maybe 8 weeks or a bit longer.

Let's see what others with more direct experience may say.

Thanks for the reply anyway. What do you think about bladder stones forming during brumation? Doesit happen, or is the metabolism slowed down enough they won't form?

 

[zovick]

Thanks for the reply anyway. What do you think about bladder stones forming during brumation? Doesit happen, or is the metabolism slowed down enough they won't form?

I can't say for sure, but I would think that they would not form (at least not very quickly) due to the slowed metabolism.

 

[Alex and the Redfoot]

Thanks for the reply anyway. What do you think about bladder stones forming during brumation? Doesit happen, or is the metabolism slowed down enough they won't form?

Interesting question... I would like to hear a good explantaion.
As I understand bladder stones form from uric acid crystalls which are a by-product of digesting protein. Tortoises brumate with their guts empty (or at least should do that way) so protein metabolising doesn't happen through all period of brumation. And fat cells and muscle tissue which store some nutrients don't accumulate protein as well.

 

[The_Four_Toed_Edward]

BEHAVIOUR CHANGES:

I wanted to update everyone. I moved apartments on the 24th of August. Edwards enclousure has stayed the same except I reinforced the railing on his ramp. Since then he has gone to sleep a bit earlier than usual. Usually he digs in for the night at about 6 to 7 pm. Now he goes to sleep at 4 to 5 pm. Could this be from the move, him preparing for brumation or something more serious?

He is still eating normally and moving around. He is preferring his humid hide over the other hides. Every other day I give him a soak and most times he passes one urate, smaller than the tip of my finger. These are sometimes a bit gritty like there is sand inside. My concern is that today he passed like five of those instead of the usual one.

Any thoughts on his behavior or brumation possibilities?

 

[Alex and the Redfoot]

BEHAVIOUR CHANGES:

I wanted to update everyone. I moved apartments on the 24th of August. Edwards enclousure has stayed the same except I reinforced the railing on his ramp. Since then he has gone to sleep a bit earlier than usual. Usually he digs in for the night at about 6 to 7 pm. Now he goes to sleep at 4 to 5 pm. Could this be from the move, him preparing for brumation or something more serious?

He is still eating normally and moving around. He is preferring his humid hide over the other hides. Every other day I give him a soak and most times he passes one urate, smaller than the tip of my finger. These are sometimes a bit gritty like there is sand inside. My concern is that today he passed like five of those instead of the usual one.

Any thoughts on his behavior or brumation possibilities?

Maybe ambient light in the room has changed (like windows facing in other direction)?

 

[Megatron's Mom]

When one of my led strip lights went out Optimus was not too happy. It wasn't really that much different to me but to him it was like it was gloomy out. Once I put in a new strip light he was back to normal.

Now if it isn't that it could be a brumation thing. I don't have tortes that brumates but Bumblebee my leopard tortoise goes to bed earlier in the fall. Even though my lights stay on the same amount of time.

 

[The_Four_Toed_Edward]

Maybe ambient light in the room has changed (like windows facing in other direction)?

That is possible. Haven't even checked which way the windows face. And of course my light fixtures outside his enclosure are different and situated differently in relation to him.

 

[The_Four_Toed_Edward]

A new deceplopement:

Edward's sleep schedule went back to normal for a few weeks, but yesterday it changed again. On Monday I switched his basking bulb to a lower wattage one since his basking zone was reading at over 40C. Now it is 35C.

Yesterday he basked for about an hour before his lights went out. He just stayed there underneath the lamp for another hour. At about nine he would wake up and go digging in his humid hide. Previously he would go to sleep in one of his hides before the lamp shut off. Could he be cold? His cold side reads at 19C. His low temperatures have been dropping slowly in the recent weeks as the landlord hasn't put the heat on yet for the winter.

 

[The_Four_Toed_Edward]

Edward passed some gritty urates today. He was blinking and standing up tall while doing this. Sometimes he also flashes.

Is soaking for 30 mins every other day not enough? Should return to soaking daily or make the soak time longer?

I am afraid for winter with his grocery store diet and pellets. Should I avoid protein?

@Tom @wellington @zovick @Yvonne G

 

[Tom]

A new deceplopement:

Edward's sleep schedule went back to normal for a few weeks, but yesterday it changed again. On Monday I switched his basking bulb to a lower wattage one since his basking zone was reading at over 40C. Now it is 35C.

Yesterday he basked for about an hour before his lights went out. He just stayed there underneath the lamp for another hour. At about nine he would wake up and go digging in his humid hide. Previously he would go to sleep in one of his hides before the lamp shut off. Could he be cold? His cold side reads at 19C. His low temperatures have been dropping slowly in the recent weeks as the landlord hasn't put the heat on yet for the winter.

Even when housed indoors under artificial heating and lighting, they seem to somehow realize what time of year it is. The shorter days and lessening light intensity cue them to prepare for brumation even when they are still warm and lit. I think our attempts to keep them up confuse their little brains and bodies a bit, and what you are seeing is the result.

Edward passed some gritty urates today. He was blinking and standing up tall while doing this. Sometimes he also flashes.

Is soaking for 30 mins every other day not enough? Should return to soaking daily or make the soak time longer?

I am afraid for winter with his grocery store diet and pellets. Should I avoid protein?

@Tom @wellington @zovick @Yvonne G

If you are seeing gritty urates, you need to increase hydration, and/or decrease protein. How is humidity in the enclosure? With temperatures cooling outside, and apparently in your house too, the electric heating equipment often will need to run more, and this dries everything out more. Increased humidity will help them conserve water that may otherwise have been lost through respiration. Spraying the food with water is another way to get more moisture into them.

Every other day soaks should be plenty for an adult Testudo, but the urates don't lie. Every other day is 3-4 times per week. I'd bump up to 5 or 6 times a week and see if that doesn't solve the problem. 30 minutes should be plenty, but 60 minutes won't hurt anything. Just keep it warm the whole time.

 

[The_Four_Toed_Edward]

Even when housed indoors under artificial heating and lighting, they seem to somehow realize what time of year it is. The shorter days and lessening light intensity cue them to prepare for brumation even when they are still warm and lit. I think our attempts to keep them up confuse their little brains and bodies a bit, and what you are seeing is the result.

Okay, I just thought this was related to switching the basking lamp and/or the emperatures dropping.

How is humidity in the enclosure? With temperatures cooling outside, and apparently in your house too, the electric heating equipment often will need to run more, and this dries everything out more. Increased humidity will help them conserve water that may otherwise have been lost through respiration. Spraying the food with water is another way to get more moisture into them.

Ambient humidity has dropped down to 38%. His humid hide hovers around 50%. Maybe this is because I can't keep him outdoors anymore, it was probably much more humid in his outdoor enclosure.

I haven't tried spraying his food, thanks for the tip. I will give it a go. He still hates soak so I guess I will have to pump them up again.

About indoors humidity, do you think it would be safe to have a room humidifier in the room around him? My doctor recommended it for me since I have had sinus problems.

 

[The_Four_Toed_Edward]

. On Monday I switched his basking bulb to a lower wattage one since his basking zone was reading at over 40C. Now it is 35C.

I want to add to this. His previous bulb was a infrared bulb and the new bulb is the Arcadia flood.

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

I want to add to this. His previous bulb was an infrared bulb and the new bulb is the Arcadia flood.

Sounds like he’s loving the floodlight if he’s basking more woo hoo!

I’m thinking 38 in part is a bit lower than ideal, and with his Urates, I’d want to try aiming for 50-60 range, even if it’s temporary just to see if that improves things, I’m thinking the room humidifier might be worth a shot! That or could you temporarily cover your set up maybe?