Russian Tortoise lethargic and withdrawn

[Thegreater]

My wife inherited two 3yo Russian tortoises, Bowser and Boo, from a woman who used to bring animals into classrooms to teach kids about them. So far as we know she was the only previous owner, and she told us that the two were brother and sister and have cohabitated since they were born. They have continued to stay together (yes we know that’s not good) in a 3x5 converted planter box indoors with a hide, UV, flood light and ceramic heater lamp maintaining 99 degrees under heater and roughly 40% humidity.

That said, my wife is an elementary school teacher and has a similar enclosure in her classroom where she rotates the torts each week, with whichever tort was at school returning home on weekends. They eat spring salad components with occasional calcium additives, and we try to mix in better produce as available. We usually separate them when we feed them as the male usually sits in the food saucer while eating. Have never seen either tort drink or soak in the saucer water bowl in their enclosure.

About 2.5 weeks ago we noticed that the female, Boo, was eating very little. She eventually stopped eating, and subsequently stopped moving around, instead remaining still with eyes closed. This continued for over a week, until I finally took her to the exotic vet near us to be checked. I was told there that she was low on weight (260g), dehydrated, and that they couldn’t even get enough blood from her to run tests on it. Her poop was negative for parasites or biotics. They told us she was very sick, was in renal failure, and offered to put her down.

I instead brought her home as my wife and kids would likely want to say goodbye. We broke the news, everyone had a good cry, and then we waited, promising that we would take good care of her to the very end. We have soaked her in warm water multiple times a day (she usually perks up and gets active for a few minutes after), we have tried strained carrot soaks, we have ground veggies down to liquid paste and used a dropper to feed her, and have raised the house heat to make her more comfortable if she’s not near the heater.

Now it’s been nearly a week since the vet visit, and she’s still with us. Not any better, but not really any worse. I’m not doubting the vet per se, but having had two previous “breeder” torts die of renal failure this just seems…different. We are continuing to dote over her, and I have read loads of posts on this forum for advice, but I guess I’m just looking for thoughts or input on what’s happening here. I may well get home today and find her at her end, but if there’s reason for hope I’d love to hear it.

Thanks in advance for your input.

(In photo below, the white tub in the enclosure is the tort soaking near the heat lamp. Her brother is roaming outside)

 

[The_Four_Toed_Edward]

I will tag some people @zovick @Yvonne G @Tom

Tortoises don't eat when they can't see.

Do you have the means to keep them separate now that one is sick? Just in case it is contagious.

I am going to ask some questions to get a more clear picture:

• What kind of lighting and heating are you using?
• Is there any puffiness or swelling? (liquid pouches under the skin)
• Are the eyes watery? Is she rubbing her eyes?
• Are the eyes hazy?
• Does she open her eyes in or after a soak?
• What substrate are you using?
• What has her diet been like?

We have soaked her in warm water multiple times a day (she usually perks up and gets active for a few minutes after), we have tried strained carrot soaks, we have ground veggies down to liquid paste and used a dropper to feed her, and have raised the house heat to make her more comfortable if she’s not near the heater.

I have seen people recommend pedialyte soaks for dehydration.

have raised the house heat to make her more comfortable if she’s not near the heater

For sick tortoises 85F is often recommended.

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

As touched on above, I would aim to keep them separated permanently, the stress of a pair dynamic like this can really take its toll, with a male and female pair, it’s usually the female that gets the brunt of itI hope that’s not the case here, but for their long term benefit they really need not to be seeing each other.

What’s the middle and cooler end of your enclosure reading during the day? What’s night temperatures like?

A 3x4 is very small for even one adult Russian, so for two to be in there is likely causing significant stress, that and not having enough roaming room will definitely effect their health over time, again I can’t say if this is the root of the current problem, but it definitely won’t be helping matters. Travelling back n forth between two less than ideal set ups also isn’t the best idea, tortoises really do hate travelling and they get used to their territory, upping sticks each week could be unsettling them.

Hopefully the members tagged above can try and give their insight on how best to treat your female currently, my instinct is if you can’t upgrade sizes right away, I’d bring the other enclosure home from the class room and keep them both separately in those with correct heating, lighting etc, keep offering foods(try offering after soaks, sometimes they get a little appetite boost), keep up with the soaks and hopefully look into an eventual size upgrade for each of them when able.

Hopefully you’ll find this thread useful to go over, this covers correct equipment(uvb, heating bulbs, lighting etc) correct levels, sizing, appropriately maintaining the humidity, safe substrates, there’s lots of visual examples for everything, a diet list and a really handy diet link to check out!

Housing adult Russian and Hermans indoors

Hello there! In this thread I’m going to include some information an example of an appropriate indoor set up for an older Herman/russian. As much as it’s encouraged to have tortoises in a safe outdoor enclosure, I understand being from the uk myself, that some climates make it difficult to...

tortoiseforum.org

This includes lots of inspiration for an adult set up both indoors and out! The indoor bit has some good ideas to tackle indoor space whilst still providing the needed roaming room! I’m always adding more in the comment section

Enclosure inspiration

Howdy folks! Hope everyone is well! As you all know, I’m a big fan of making threads that cater more towards visual learners like myself, I’ve really been wanting to create a thread full of adult enclosure inspiration for a while now, I’ve managed to find some great references over time! I do...

tortoiseforum.org

Lastly, this one here is really good to go over and keep on hand, it’ll help you avoid the wrong bulbs, substrates, housing etc, I always encourage double checking purchases on the forum too before buying

Common keeping errors

Hello everyone! I’d been a long time lurker on this site long before joining just under a year ago now, over that time I’ve seen these husbandry issues come up time and time again, sometimes with dire consequences☹️ I thought this thread might serve as a good visual guide for these common...

tortoiseforum.org

Hope they come in useful! Fingers crossed the experts will come along with more advice, in the meantime feel free to ask any further questions on the information presented, welcome to the forum, I hope she starts getting better

 

[Thegreater]

• What kind of lighting and heating are you using?
  • 65 Watt floodlight, 150 W ceramic heater, UVB 10 22" fluorescent bulb
• Is there any puffiness or swelling? (liquid pouches under the skin)
  • I don't think so but my eyes are terrible. See photo attached
• Are the eyes watery? Is she rubbing her eyes?
  • No and she does not appear to be
• Are the eyes hazy?
  • I don't think so
• Does she open her eyes in or after a soak?
  • Yes, see photo attached. She also moves a decent amount in and immediately after soak but stops soon after being put back in enclosure
• What substrate are you using?
  • 5" mix of coconut fiber and soil
• What has her diet been like?
  • Won't eat pellets. Usually nibbled on romaine lettuce, kale, arugula with occasional tortoise treats sprayed with water

 

[Thegreater]

I guess I should have written @The_Four_Toed_Edward and @Littleredfootbigredheart in my previous. Still learning how this works. Also will recopy @zovick @Yvonne G @Tom for any advice.

​

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

I guess I should have written @The_Four_Toed_Edward and @Littleredfootbigredheart in my previous. Still learning how this works. Also will recopy @zovick @Yvonne G @Tom for any advice.

​

Equipment checks out, hopefully the advise in my previous reply could be of some help, I’d definitely keep them permanently separated and at your home instead of back n forth, I’m hoping without the stress of the male around and permanent housing might help, though it could take some time for her to adjust, it’s difficult to say exactly what could be going on with her, but I’d try to eliminate as many stressful factors as possible.

Please let us know if you have any questions on the information in the links provided

 

[Thegreater]

Equipment checks out, hopefully the advise in my previous reply could be of some help, I’d definitely keep them permanently separated and at your home instead of back n forth, I’m hoping without the stress of the male around and permanent housing might help, though it could take some time for her to adjust, it’s difficult to say exactly what could be going on with her, but I’d try to eliminate as many stressful factors as possible.

Please let us know if you have any questions on the information in the links provided

I guess my only question is really the one I started with...do I have a tortoise in renal failure, or do I have a tortoise that may just be under duress and with the right conditions pull out of it? I know you can't know for sure, but for those with more experience than me, what does it seem like to you?

I feel like if she was in renal failure she wouldn't suddenly become super active after every soak, but I don't know that as we are new to this. As I said, I'm not trying to doubt my vet, but it seems like there's still a very much wanting to be alive tortoise here. Do we keep battling assuming its lethargy from shock?

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

I guess my only question is really the one I started with...do I have a tortoise in renal failure, or do I have a tortoise that may just be under duress and with the right conditions pull out of it? I know you can't know for sure, but for those with more experience than me, what does it seem like to you?

I feel like if she was in renal failure she wouldn't suddenly become super active after every soak, but I don't know that as we are new to this. As I said, I'm not trying to doubt my vet, but it seems like there's still a very much wanting to be alive tortoise here. Do we keep battling assuming it’s lethargy from shock?

I’m afraid without further diagnostic tests, there’s just no knowing for certain what she could have going on, I’d ideally want full bloods but I know that’s been tricky to get from her. This will however cause further stress which I think for the time being is best avoided.
I will say I’m alarmed the vet has been ready to tell you to put her to sleep without truly confirming if she is in fact in renal failure.

Now granted I simply don’t have enough experience with this kind of thing to say she isn’t, but my gut is telling me to give her a little more time under less stressful conditions, so separate from the male with her own correct heating and lighting, I’d keep up with the carrot soaks and offering feeds, make sure temperatures are where they need to be at all times, I’d try this for a few more weeks at least, if she continues to go downhill and loose weight I’d see if there’s a chance to try again for bloods, I wonder if @Yvonne G or @Tom cam weigh in here, they have far more experience and knowledge than me

 

[The_Four_Toed_Edward]

guess my only question is really the one I started with...do I have a tortoise in renal failure, or do I have a tortoise that may just be under duress and with the right conditions pull out of it? I know you can't know for sure, but for those with more experience than me, what does it seem like to you?

Unfortunately I don't have the answer for this either. I don't have experience of tortoise with renal failure, hopefully Tom or Yvonne G can weigh in. I am also tagging @zovick since he too has a lot of experience taking care of sick tortoises.

 

[zovick]

I guess my only question is really the one I started with...do I have a tortoise in renal failure, or do I have a tortoise that may just be under duress and with the right conditions pull out of it? I know you can't know for sure, but for those with more experience than me, what does it seem like to you?

I feel like if she was in renal failure she wouldn't suddenly become super active after every soak, but I don't know that as we are new to this. As I said, I'm not trying to doubt my vet, but it seems like there's still a very much wanting to be alive tortoise here. Do we keep battling assuming its lethargy from shock?

I would keep doing the carrot and/or pedialyte soaks daily and offering food after the soaks. It can't hurt anything and maybe the tortoise will make a recovery assuming you have the all correct lighting, heat, etc., etc.

If the tortoise takes a turn for the worse, you can always take it back to the vet for euthanasia. Otherwise, I would not bother with more vet visits right now. They will just stress the tortoise more and may do more harm than good.

Good luck!