2 females together? help?

[saweetnsour]

So I have had my 5year old sulcata "Tank" for about 4 1/2 years and she was my only 1. I recently was picking up my kiddos at their grandmas and walking by her front gate was a little sulcata. We asked around and no one knew who's it was.... we took her home. A few days later the owner contacted their grandma, she said she didn't have time for her and since we had another 1 at home she would love for us to keep her.... so "Izzie" became a family member. Izzie is very active and likes people.... Tank is quiet and only likes her everyday people. They are in a big enclosure.... and they seem to dislike eachother. There's tons of food and they try to steal it from eachothers mouth. Izzie seems to push tank around..... I don't know what to do. I can't seperate them due to space in the winter (they come inside) but I don't wanna get rid of 1. Will this go away? Are 2 females bad together? Is there anything I can do to help?

Btw.... Izzie is the exact size of Tank, and only about 7mos apart in age.

Oh and can they hurt eachother? They are both really nice.... to people...lol

 

[Jacqui]

The harsh reality is they may never get along. The even more harsh part is, they may and can hurt each other seriously.

First are you sure they are indeed both females? Izzie sounds like a very aggressive tortoise and a bully at that. Is there no way to divide the enclosure and to house them inside alone? Otherwise, I think your going to end up having to rehome one of them.

 

[Yvonne G]

Hi saweetnsour, and welcome to the Forum!

First and foremost, are you sure they are both female? If you're going by the flat bottom shell, that stays flat even on males, until the tortoise is quite a bit older than 4 or 5 years. If you post a picture of both tortoises laying on their back, straight down at the tortoise, and including the tail, we will tell you if you have guessed correctly.

Sometimes two tortoises can get along, but because you added one after the first one had been able to establish its territory, it makes it harder. Since tortoises are solitary and territorial, naturally the original tortoise wants to chase the other tortoise out of its territory.

 

[Baoh]

This behavior may subside...or escalate. If you can erect site barriers, that may help reduce stress. Likewise for large habitat changes that induce a period of reorientation to the changed landscape. I have had a bully female that eventually became effectively non-aggressive. My male is not even remotely aggressive to tortoises, including other males. It depends on the individual tortoise. Sometimes initial aggressors become habituated and tolerant of cage mates and sometimes historically peaceful tortoises become aggressive. If they are both actually females, the aggression only consists of some shoving, and they both still get enough to eat, I might wait to see if the scuffles will cool down on their own. If it gets worse, I would try a different approach.

 

[sibi]

The problem you have is that one sully was introduced later in the habitat. Now, it's about territory and food and warmth. If you have two females, it may stop after you've introduced them in a neutral territory. You can split part of the enclosure, dress it up differently, use different plates or stones for food and introduce them for short periods of time. Watch how they react toward each other. I would not place one in before the other; I would put them in at the same time so no one can claim the space. Do this everyday, provided they aren't fighting each other. If you see some pushing, take the one that pushed, and place him in a corner. Keep doing this if one continues to push. Sometimes, seeing that pushing has some negative consequences can make them change their behavior. Sullies are not dumb animals; they can learn rather quickly. Later, slowly separate the barriers and see what happens. If all fails, then you may have to part with Izzie, but if it becomes a positive situation, then you'll have two torts that learned to live with each other.

 

[saweetnsour]

So, I changed the enclosure around today and went out and bought these 2 half log cave things.... opposite ends of the cage. And they are sleeping in their own logs at the moment, and they didn't seem to fight over who got what log... still trying to steal food, maybe 2 seperate dishes at opposite ends also. What's crazy is I let them wander around the living room in the morning and they follow eachother throughout a huge area.

I am sure their both females, they just had check ups.

I will say they are so smart.... its like having 2 fighting kids, I check on them constantly...lol

If I did have to get rid of 1 would replacing her with a male bring the same problem?

 

[Katherine]

How big is the enclosure they are in and how big are both tortoises respectively? Two food dishes is a good idea, often in a pair situation someone gets bullied out of meals so VIP to ensure both tortoises get plenty of food and water to themselves.

I keep many female sulcata's together without incident; although some were raised together some were also added to the herd later. As others have said really depends on the individual tortoises personality- I too have taken in more than a handful that will have to housed separately their entire life. Boah makes some great suggestions; I am a huge advocate for visual barriers. The more visual barriers there are in an enclosure the easier it is for the tortoises to get away from each other in places where they don't have to look at each other and feel the need to spar. If trying to get them to get along I would advise as many a feasible. I don't know how big your tortoises are but I use logs, rocks, bushes, irregular shaped enclosures etc to break up an open landscape. If possible try them in a neutral area. Your original tortoise already feels the current enclosure is her 'home range' and I am not surprised she would want to defend it. In a new area (like you experienced on your carpet) no one has staked claim yet and it may be easier for them to get to know eachother while both are feeling out of their element.

I do not think that swapping for a male is necessarily going to fix the problem, in fact it could potentially make it worse. They are often aggressive in pursuit of mating and a male with a sole female will mount her incessantly during breeding seasons causing stress, shell damage and sometimes worse. For this reason it is often advisable to keep more than one female with a sole male (kind of spreads out the abuse so one female is not getting the brunt of the wrath). Even disregarding these complications you will face the same issues introducing a new tortoise of any gender that you are facing now.

Goodluck and don't forget to keep a close eye on them while they are together and still getting to know each other as it doesn't take but a moment for someone to get hurt : / I hope you are able to get them to cohabitate nicely!

---

Oh and can they hurt eachother? They are both really nice.... to people...lol

Hate to sound like an alarmist but absolutely! They can flip, injure, even kill eachother and it is not uncommon to see it happen. Even more subtle they can and will compete for the best food, the warmest basking spot and the safest place to sleep. Sometimes it takes a while to notice the more subtle bullying so be on the watch. Solitary creatures by design, these guys should be closely monitored or separated until you are positive they are playing nice. It's much better to be safe then sorry.

 

[Laura]

replacing with a male will make it worse.. you have more issues housing two...males will or can, pester and female to death.
What size area do you have them in ? post some pics...they sound a bit young or small to be able to determine the sex yet...

 

[Yvonne G]

I am sure their both females, they just had check ups.

I'm not so sure this is a good indicator. When you are looking at a very young tortoise, as yours are, most species of tortoise look female. They don't get male characteristics until they are quite a bit older than yours are. Even a vet wouldn't be able to tell unless he did some sort of scope thing and looked inside.

 

[lovelyrosepetal]

Yvonne, how big are they before they start to show male characteristics? I know when they flash you its a boy, but what other characteristics do they display?

 

[Yvonne G]

This is only for sulcatas...as he grows his shell starts to change. You can first notice it in the anal scutes (the scutes on either side of the tail). In a male, the points or tips of the scutes point outward, or towards the back legs. In a female they point either straight back or in towards the tail. The male's tail is bigger, fatter, longer than the female's short stubby tail, and the cloaca on the male is more towards the tip of the tail, where as on the female it is closer to the body. This next indicator is a little harder to determine: the anal and femoral scute seam is straight in a male sulcata and wavy in a female. It's not until the male sulcata gets quite big that the flat plastron starts to show an indentation.

Most people who don't really "know" tortoises will think that because the plastron is flat (as is the case for all Russian tortoises, no matter what age) that its female. Not so. I had a male sulcata tortoise here who's plastron didn't become convex until the tortoise was about 50lbs. It happens earlier in some, later in some. Not a good indicator in a young tortoise.

 

[Tom]

Pairs are often problematic, as you are seeing. I would separate them ASAP. The stress caused by their interaction is not good for either of them.

I agree with Yvonne about the sexing. Most vets don't have a very good track record with tortoises. I was told my male box turtle was a female by a vet, only to have it get an erection, which had to be explained by another vet who confirmed it really was a male in the first place... These things happen. If you post some pics of the anal scutes and tails of your two, we can try to sex them for you. It will add some certainty to the discussion, but really, it doesn't matter since they don't get along any way. I know of several sulcatas that were killed by other sulcatas.