6x4 Viv

[ShellingtonTheFirst]

Quick TLDR: A few months ago I took in a 4 year old Greek tortoise with NO knowledge of tortoises at all. He came in a 1ftx3ft tank that he barely even had space to turn around in, let alone move, and I immediately contacted a company that makes custom vivariums and had a 6ftx4ft one made for him. I’m a young adult who earns minimum wage and when I say ever since I’ve had Shelly EVERY SINGLE PENNY I have earned has been spent on him, I’m not exaggerating.

Anyway. He’s in his brand new home, enjoying his new space, when I read this even 6x4 is too small and I should upgrade by at least another 2ft! His vivarium cost be upwards of £500 and quite frankly I don’t have the money (yet) to shell out (pardon the pun) on another custom vivarium, at least not in the near future.

I have got his husbandry down to a T now and would like to think I’m rather knowledgable about his care now. The one thing that is bugging me is the size of his viv despite the fact he seems happy in it.

If I added a platform in there, so he had two levels instead of one, would that make up for lost space? Or is it inevitable that at some point I’m going to have to upgrade again?

Is 6ftx4ft absolutely too small or will he be okay in there?

Many thanks TFO! Let me know what you think!

 

[Tom]

Quick TLDR: A few months ago I took in a 4 year old Greek tortoise with NO knowledge of tortoises at all. He came in a 1ftx3ft tank that he barely even had space to turn around in, let alone move, and I immediately contacted a company that makes custom vivariums and had a 6ftx4ft one made for him. I’m a young adult who earns minimum wage and when I say ever since I’ve had Shelly EVERY SINGLE PENNY I have earned has been spent on him, I’m not exaggerating.

Anyway. He’s in his brand new home, enjoying his new space, when I read this even 6x4 is too small and I should upgrade by at least another 2ft! His vivarium cost be upwards of £500 and quite frankly I don’t have the money (yet) to shell out (pardon the pun) on another custom vivarium, at least not in the near future.

I have got his husbandry down to a T now and would like to think I’m rather knowledgable about his care now. The one thing that is bugging me is the size of his viv despite the fact he seems happy in it.

If I added a platform in there, so he had two levels instead of one, would that make up for lost space? Or is it inevitable that at some point I’m going to have to upgrade again?

Is 6ftx4ft absolutely too small or will he be okay in there?

Many thanks TFO! Let me know what you think!

All you will get on this is opinions. We can all agree that a tortoise can survive in a 12 inch square. We will probably also agree that a 12 inch square is too small. Once the enclosure gets too small, you will start having issues with muscle tone, constipation, and possible mental issues with the size constraints. Well what is "too small"? In the wild they have territories that can span miles. Some species only ever wander a few hundred feet from where they hatch. A few hundred feet in any direction is quite a lot larger than any Testudo enclosure I have ever seen. So what are we to do as caring conscientious tortoise keepers? How small is too small? How large is large enough? How large does it have to be to prevent the aforementioned problems? I have not seen health problems when they are kept in a 4x8 foot. I have not seen many in a 6x4 foot, but I do see these problems in 2x4 foot or similar enclosures. Often the problem can be helped if the tortoise has a large outdoor enclosure to be used in fair weather. If you don't have a large outdoor enclosure, or your tortoise is going to be indoors for months at a time every year in winter, then it is even more important that your indoor enclosure be as large as possible. 4x8 is suggested as the MINIMUM for an adult Testudo, not the ideal size.

I'm sorry to hear about your financial woes, but your tortoise does not care. It needs what it needs. What would you say to someone keeping a horse in their garden if they told you they could not afford, or did not have the space to keep it properly? Is tortoise keeping any different? Tortoises are not for everyone. They have huge space requirements compared to other reptiles. You sound like you care immensely and are very dedicated to caring for your tortoise. That is commendable. If money is tight, then some thoughtful innovation may be necessary. I would hate to see you give your tortoise away, but I would also hate to see a tortoise cramped in a small enclosure its whole life. That extra 8 square feet will make a difference to your tortoise, but I'd rather see even more than 32 square feet. I have 1000 sq. ft. outdoor pens for tortoises ranging in size from 5 to 12 inches. I sometimes think they should be larger.

6x3 isn't going to kill your tortoise, but is it the right thing to do long term? Doesn't seem so to me, but others may disagree.

 

[ShellingtonTheFirst]

All you will get on this is opinions. We can all agree that a tortoise can survive in a 12 inch square. We will probably also agree that a 12 inch square is too small. Once the enclosure gets too small, you will start having issues with muscle tone, constipation, and possible mental issues with the size constraints. Well what is "too small"? In the wild they have territories that can span miles. Some species only ever wander a few hundred feet from where they hatch. A few hundred feet in any direction is quite a lot larger than any Testudo enclosure I have ever seen. So what are we to do as caring conscientious tortoise keepers? How small is too small? How large is large enough? How large does it have to be to prevent the aforementioned problems? I have not seen health problems when they are kept in a 4x8 foot. I have not seen many in a 6x4 foot, but I do see these problems in 2x4 foot or similar enclosures. Often the problem can be helped if the tortoise has a large outdoor enclosure to be used in fair weather. If you don't have a large outdoor enclosure, or your tortoise is going to be indoors for months at a time every year in winter, then it is even more important that your indoor enclosure be as large as possible. 4x8 is suggested as the MINIMUM for an adult Testudo, not the ideal size.

I'm sorry to hear about your financial woes, but your tortoise does not care. It needs what it needs. What would you say to someone keeping a horse in their garden if they told you they could not afford, or did not have the space to keep it properly? Is tortoise keeping any different? Tortoises are not for everyone. They have huge space requirements compared to other reptiles. You sound like you care immensely and are very dedicated to caring for your tortoise. That is commendable. If money is tight, then some thoughtful innovation may be necessary. I would hate to see you give your tortoise away, but I would also hate to see a tortoise cramped in a small enclosure its whole life. That extra 8 square feet will make a difference to your tortoise, but I'd rather see even more than 32 square feet. I have 1000 sq. ft. outdoor pens for tortoises ranging in size from 5 to 12 inches. I sometimes think they should be larger.

6x3 isn't going to kill your tortoise, but is it the right thing to do long term? Doesn't seem so to me, but others may disagree.

I’m definitely not giving Shelly away, ever. I’ve vastly improved the quality of his life thus far and I won’t be giving up now, hence me mentioning I can’t ‘yet’ afford another vivarium. He’ll be okay in it for a while until I can save what’s necessary to upgrade.

What do you think of my idea about adding a second level to his enclosure, for the time being? Would that make up for the lost square feet?

6x4 btw, not 6x3. lol

 

[Tom]

I’m definitely not giving Shelly away, ever. I’ve vastly improved the quality of his life thus far and I won’t be giving up now, hence me mentioning I can’t ‘yet’ afford another vivarium. He’ll be okay in it for a while until I can save what’s necessary to upgrade.

What do you think of my idea about adding a second level to his enclosure, for the time being? Would that make up for the lost square feet?

6x4 btw, not 6x3. lol

I'm not a fan of second stories, but if done correctly, they don't do any harm that I can see. I've tried it a few times and didn't really care for it.

 

[ShellingtonTheFirst]

I'm not a fan of second stories, but if done correctly, they don't do any harm that I can see. I've tried it a few times and didn't really care for it.

Alright, cheers.

 

[Maggie3fan]

I have tort tables the same size as yours. But I also have large tortoise pens outside...I have box turtles in my tort tables. They are inside during the winters but Spring and Summer the turtles are put outside daily and brought in at night. I have a tortoise shed that is 20'x12' with 3 torts inside and doggie doors that are opened daily. I had a tort who was severely constipated and had to be taken to the Vet...and even before Tom, this Vet told me my tort didn't have enuf walking room. Torts walk for miles in the wild every day. They need this walking activity to help the guts to move. I am not big on the second floor inside as they can't pace on stairs...and it's the pacing thing they need. I know tort keepers who have small inside tort tables but they take the tort to a park daily or a neighbors yard...hope this helps...
you need to figure out how to give your tort more exercise...that's all...

 

[ShellingtonTheFirst]

I have tort tables the same size as yours. But I also have large tortoise pens outside...I have box turtles in my tort tables. They are inside during the winters but Spring and Summer the turtles are put outside daily and brought in at night. I have a tortoise shed that is 20'x12' with 3 torts inside and doggie doors that are opened daily. I had a tort who was severely constipated and had to be taken to the Vet...and even before Tom, this Vet told me my tort didn't have enuf walking room. Torts walk for miles in the wild every day. They need this walking activity to help the guts to move. I am not big on the second floor inside as they can't pace on stairs...and it's the pacing thing they need. I know tort keepers who have small inside tort tables but they take the tort to a park daily or a neighbors yard...hope this helps...View attachment 353441View attachment 353442
you need to figure out how to give your tort more exercise...that's all...

I’m planning on letting him outside when the weather calls for it but it’s winter in the UK at the moment, -4C today! So there will be a long time yet before he’s allowed outside. I also don’t feel comfortable leaving him outside unattended, enclosure of not, so when he is eventually let outside in a pen it will only be for an hour or so while I’m able to be with him. There are too many foxes in my area for me to be entirely comfortable leaving him unattended, as well as my own cats who have free roam of the garden whenever they want, and the kids next door who I frequently find bouncing on my trampoline… The list goes on and on.

 

[Tom]

I’m planning on letting him outside when the weather calls for it but it’s winter in the UK at the moment, -4C today! So there will be a long time yet before he’s allowed outside. I also don’t feel comfortable leaving him outside unattended, enclosure of not, so when he is eventually let outside in a pen it will only be for an hour or so while I’m able to be with him. There are too many foxes in my area for me to be entirely comfortable leaving him unattended, as well as my own cats who have free roam of the garden whenever they want, and the kids next door who I frequently find bouncing on my trampoline… The list goes on and on.

I think almost everyone everywhere in the world has those predators. I live out in the country and we have coyotes, foxes, bobcats, bears, mountain lions, hawks, eagles, owls, ravens, possums, snakes, rats, ground squirrels, red ants, etc... None of these ever mess with my tortoises and all of my adult tortoises of all species live outside full-time. I have a solution to offer if you are worried:

This is sold as a poultry pen at a store we have over here called "Tractor Supply". It is 8x8x8 feet and no predators can get in, except for rats, but the tortoise should be in your house, or locked in a heated night box at night when the rats are active. We have this cage under a mulberry tree for summer shade, but if needed, you could add a solid roof for more shade.

An adult tortoise should spend as much time outside as possible when weather permits. The sun, exercise and grazing does them a world of good.

 

[ShellingtonTheFirst]

I think almost everyone everywhere in the world has those predators. I live out in the country and we have coyotes, foxes, bobcats, bears, mountain lions, hawks, eagles, owls, ravens, possums, snakes, rats, ground squirrels, red ants, etc... None of these ever mess with my tortoises and all of my adult tortoises of all species live outside full-time. I have a solution to offer if you are worried:
View attachment 353445
This is sold as a poultry pen at a store we have over here called "Tractor Supply". It is 8x8x8 feet and no predators can get in, except for rats, but the tortoise should be in your house, or locked in a heated night box at night when the rats are active. We have this cage under a mulberry tree for summer shade, but if needed, you could add a solid roof for more shade.

An adult tortoise should spend as much time outside as possible when weather permits. The sun, exercise and grazing does them a world of good.

I’m definitely going to get him an outdoor pen come summertime, or a structure like the one you suggested, but I absolutely won’t leave him out there unattended. Call it selfish, call it stupid — I just can’t bring myself to do it. There’s a lot of information I’ve gladly accepted and things that I have changed about his care having heard from you and the rest of TFO but this is something I won’t budge on — besides, I’m sure come summertime as long as he’s getting at least an hour a day out there he’ll be alright.

 

[ShellingtonTheFirst]

I think almost everyone everywhere in the world has those predators. I live out in the country and we have coyotes, foxes, bobcats, bears, mountain lions, hawks, eagles, owls, ravens, possums, snakes, rats, ground squirrels, red ants, etc... None of these ever mess with my tortoises and all of my adult tortoises of all species live outside full-time. I have a solution to offer if you are worried:
View attachment 353445
This is sold as a poultry pen at a store we have over here called "Tractor Supply". It is 8x8x8 feet and no predators can get in, except for rats, but the tortoise should be in your house, or locked in a heated night box at night when the rats are active. We have this cage under a mulberry tree for summer shade, but if needed, you could add a solid roof for more shade.

An adult tortoise should spend as much time outside as possible when weather permits. The sun, exercise and grazing does them a world of good.

Also, surely it’s possible for him to burrow down and out of the pen, especially if I was to just leave him outside unattended?

 

[Maggie3fan]

He "could" do that depending on your enclosure and the tort. I keep Sulcata who are known for digging long burrows, but I never have had a tort who burrowed. Call me lucky I guess...I have fox, hawks, raccoons, cougars, skunks, moles, feral cats and neighbor kids. Because I know that all my pens are either safe or that inhabitants come inside at night...don't cheat your tortoise of being outside in the sun. He's not just basking, he should be walking around and acting like a tortoise, so please don't cheat him out of that because YOU haven't set him up safely...here's my tort shed...and remember those predators you named are nocturnal except your cats...I have 3 cats when the tort moves the cat leaves...
Simon and Little Terror

 

[Tom]

Also, surely it’s possible for him to burrow down and out of the pen, especially if I was to just leave him outside unattended?

Hermanni don't do that. Russian dig down, but don't "burrow". Sulcatas and gopher tortoise species all burrow, but I have never had a tortoise dig out of any enclosure. I've had large sulcatas knock down stacked block walls, but none of them of any species, size or age have ever dug out of any pen.

 

[ShellingtonTheFirst]

Alright, another question. So a Greeks basking temp should be 37-40C, right? And their ambient around 26C’ish? Well, London NEVER gets that type of weather. Perhaps a few weeks in summer when we have a heatwave (and even then it would never be his basking temp, only ambient) so surely it would be too cold for him outside anyway, give or take a few weeks out of the year?

 

[ShellingtonTheFirst]

Hermanni don't do that. Russian dig down, but don't "burrow". Sulcatas and gopher tortoise species all burrow, but I have never had a tortoise dig out of any enclosure. I've had large sulcatas knock down stacked block walls, but none of them of any species, size or age have ever dug out of any pen.

Shelly digs into his substrate every night in his hides before he goes to sleep and half buries himself. Deep enough for me to worry that he could do the same in an outdoor pen and escape.

 

[ShellingtonTheFirst]

He "could" do that depending on your enclosure and the tort. I keep Sulcata who are known for digging long burrows, but I never have had a tort who burrowed. Call me lucky I guess...I have fox, hawks, raccoons, cougars, skunks, moles, feral cats and neighbor kids. Because I know that all my pens are either safe or that inhabitants come inside at night...don't cheat your tortoise of being outside in the sun. He's not just basking, he should be walking around and acting like a tortoise, so please don't cheat him out of that because YOU haven't set him up safely...here's my tort shed...and remember those predators you named are nocturnal except your cats...I have 3 cats when the tort moves the cat leaves...View attachment 353446View attachment 353447
Simon and Little TerrorView attachment 353448

Oh! And another thing. We have a family of foxes that practically live in our garden when the weather is warmer. You say they’re nocturnal — London foxes must be a different breed. I often see them playing and lounging around in the garden during the day. I would absolutely never forgive myself if one of them were to get ahold of Shelly.

 

[Tom]

Shelly digs into his substrate every night in his hides before he goes to sleep and half buries himself. Deep enough for me to worry that he could do the same in an outdoor pen and escape.

What they do inside is not necessarily reflective of what they will do outside.

Certainly use caution and certainly keep and eye on things, but a cage like the one in my picture with a 12 inch plywood visual barrier around the bottom will keep your tortoise safe so that it can get much needed healthy exercise, sunshine, and grazing outside.

 

[Maggie3fan]

Oh! And another thing. We have a family of foxes that practically live in our garden when the weather is warmer. You say they’re nocturnal — London foxes must be a different breed. I often see them playing and lounging around in the garden during the day. I would absolutely never forgive myself if one of them were to get ahold of Shelly.

I totally understand

 

[ShellingtonTheFirst]

Alright, another question. So a Greeks basking temp should be 37-40C, right? And their ambient around 26C’ish? Well, London NEVER gets that type of weather. Perhaps a few weeks in summer when we have a heatwave (and even then it would never be his basking temp, only ambient) so surely it would be too cold for him outside anyway, give or take a few weeks out of the year?

What about this @Tom ?

 

[Tom]

What about this @Tom ?

Basking temp should be 36-37C. 40C is too high. Ambient anywhere from 18-29C is acceptable with the basking area at 36C all day

Those are optimal indoor housing temps. Outdoors we have the sun. This is a game changer. All of my tropical species live outside here as adults. Indoors I don't let these guys drop below 26C ever. Outdoors I have their night boxes heated to 26-30C for most of every year. Right now we are having a terrible winter cold spell and nights are dropping to 0 with day time highs only reaching 12-15C some days. My adults come out of their heated boxes into the cold air and they walk around, bask in the sun, and graze. When they feel cool, they will go back into their heated boxes to warm up. If its over cast, they will go back into the boxes sooner. I'm talking about tropical species. Your species is a temperate species. As an adult, a greek tortoise could handle these temps I've been talking about indefinitely. Having a temperature controlled shelter makes all the difference. There are pics and a full explanation on how to make this work right here:

The Best Way To Raise Any Temperate Species Of Tortoise

I chose the title of this care sheet very carefully. Are there other ways to raise babies and care for adults? Yes. Yes there are, but those ways are not as good. What follows is the BEST way, according to 30 years of research and experimentation with hundreds of babies of many species. What is...

tortoiseforum.org