They don't come from the Sahara desert.
90 lb sulcata - Turtle House
- Thread starter Former Member
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They don't come from the Sahara desert.
Former Member
New Member
First of all i find your tone rather rude but you are from the UK.
So i could be wrong because we speak different English.
Tom may know his turtles and i said thank you for the information.
I have been to Africa and have seen these turtles in the Sahara desert.
The vet i know specializes in turtles and other mammals.
I do respect Toms information but not over a trained veterinarian.
To make my point....Tom says.....
If the night temp in sulcata land did happen to drop to 65 on the coldest "winter" night of the year, Where, what town or what area?
the tortoise would be down underground in an 80 degree burrow
To me Tom verified that at 55 at night would be no problem in my area like the vet said.
If a hole is 80F in a burrow at 65 why would 10 degrees be a big deal?
Even if the temp was lower it most likely would not go below 70F according to Toms numbers..
I do not think Tom is right about the coldest night in Africa but i do not know where he is referring.
It was 18c - 64.F in .Mauritania, Africa last night and is expected to get colder tonight.
I go there in a few days for work. and know there is turtles in the area.
Joe or what ever your name is if you want to take Toms advise that is up to you
Myself i would not take anyones advice over someone trained unless i verified the information..
I am not saying Tom does not know about turtles or there care.
I do respect any answers from other people as long as it is constructive. .
Like i said i also verify to see if the information is correct.
I have found that it helps if you do not take someones word as fact.
Wikipedia
The African spurred tortoise (Centrochelys sulcata), also called the sulcata tortoise,
is a species of tortoise, which inhabits the southern edge of the Sahara desert
So i could be wrong because we speak different English.
Tom may know his turtles and i said thank you for the information.
I have been to Africa and have seen these turtles in the Sahara desert.
The vet i know specializes in turtles and other mammals.
I do respect Toms information but not over a trained veterinarian.
To make my point....Tom says.....
If the night temp in sulcata land did happen to drop to 65 on the coldest "winter" night of the year, Where, what town or what area?
the tortoise would be down underground in an 80 degree burrow
To me Tom verified that at 55 at night would be no problem in my area like the vet said.
If a hole is 80F in a burrow at 65 why would 10 degrees be a big deal?
Even if the temp was lower it most likely would not go below 70F according to Toms numbers..
I do not think Tom is right about the coldest night in Africa but i do not know where he is referring.
It was 18c - 64.F in .Mauritania, Africa last night and is expected to get colder tonight.
I go there in a few days for work. and know there is turtles in the area.
Joe or what ever your name is if you want to take Toms advise that is up to you
Myself i would not take anyones advice over someone trained unless i verified the information..
I am not saying Tom does not know about turtles or there care.
I do respect any answers from other people as long as it is constructive. .
Like i said i also verify to see if the information is correct.
I have found that it helps if you do not take someones word as fact.
Wikipedia
The African spurred tortoise (Centrochelys sulcata), also called the sulcata tortoise,
is a species of tortoise, which inhabits the southern edge of the Sahara desert
Former Member
New Member
I will be in pretoria by Friday for a meeting it was 57 f last night there.
Generally there weather is the same as my area of California.
They do run a little hotter then we do in the summer.
They also get in the 50-60 range at night in most areas at times..
We service large backbones used for communications for most of Africa.
i have been to a lot of different areas around the country for work.
I am sure there are a lot of places to see in the future.
That is reason i asked Tom where he was referring to in Africa.-
If there is a place that has a abundance of wild turtles i would take the time to visit the area.
Generally there weather is the same as my area of California.
They do run a little hotter then we do in the summer.
They also get in the 50-60 range at night in most areas at times..
We service large backbones used for communications for most of Africa.
i have been to a lot of different areas around the country for work.
I am sure there are a lot of places to see in the future.
That is reason i asked Tom where he was referring to in Africa.-
If there is a place that has a abundance of wild turtles i would take the time to visit the area.
Former Member
New Member
Tom
Do you know of anyone with a big turtle using the Kane Electric Baby Pig Heat Mat -13.5" x 48"
I got turned onto one today from my veterinarian friend he got as a sample from Kane.
Do you know of anyone with a big turtle using the Kane Electric Baby Pig Heat Mat -13.5" x 48"
I got turned onto one today from my veterinarian friend he got as a sample from Kane.
Former Member
New Member
I am wondering if it will hold up to a 90 lb turtle with nails.
I saw you used a smaller version but your turtles are not very big.
That also explains the hotter temp your using for your turtles..
I saw you used a smaller version but your turtles are not very big.
That also explains the hotter temp your using for your turtles..
Why would toms opinion matter to you when you literally just said:
"I do respect Toms information but not over a trained veterinarian."
It's crazy to me when people ask for advice, but then fight every piece of advice given...
The day you learn you are wrong about this is the day you find your tortoise dead. I'm trying really hard to prevent this, but some people just can't be reached.
Ask your vet how many semesters of vet school are dedicated to tortoise husbandry. Let us know what he/she says.
After you get that answer, ask yourself: How does this Tom guy know the things he knows? Your tortoise is NOT a desert species and it does not live in the Sahara Desert. How many times do you think I've seen people kill their tortoises using the same kind of "logic" you are using right now? I've been keeping sulcatas in SoCal for decades. I've seen literally hundreds of cases, in addition to my own tortoises.
And the temperature of my boxes has nothing to do with the size of my tortoises. Those are the temps I use for all of them once they move outside.
Ask your vet how many semesters of vet school are dedicated to tortoise husbandry. Let us know what he/she says.
After you get that answer, ask yourself: How does this Tom guy know the things he knows? Your tortoise is NOT a desert species and it does not live in the Sahara Desert. How many times do you think I've seen people kill their tortoises using the same kind of "logic" you are using right now? I've been keeping sulcatas in SoCal for decades. I've seen literally hundreds of cases, in addition to my own tortoises.
And the temperature of my boxes has nothing to do with the size of my tortoises. Those are the temps I use for all of them once they move outside.
They don't live in the Sahara. It does not get that cold where they come from. Have you ever put a thermometer probe 3-4 feet under ground when temp are 65-70 at night and 100 during the day, like it is in the areas where sulcatas come from in their "winter"? I have. It reads right around 80. Know what the underground temp will be in winter in North America in Huntington Beach when night are in the 50s and days are in the 60s? It won't be 80.
Where on earth would you get the idea that keeping a tropical species at tropical temperatures would be "cooking their insides"? Are your insides cooking at 98.6? Do they cook their insides when they basking in the sun everyday to warm up well above 80? That makes no sense man.
They cannot and do not live where it gets 42 or 50, and during the times when the nights do get cooler than the 70s, they are in their warm burrows overnight, and it gets up to near 100 the next day. Every day. Its not going to get anywhere near 100 in your area until next July or August.
I don't know what more I can say. In time you will figure this all out. Its just sad that your tortoise will have to suffer for you to learn what some of us already know.
Many of us use Kane heat mats in conjunction with other heating sources. They are reliable. That size is too small for your tortoise. I have the 27 x 48 inch size. If you have room for an oil filled radiator, it is probably better since the heat is more evenly distributed.
By the way, a sulcata is a tortoise, not a turtle. Your vet should know this.
@Vigil Some more points that occurred to me over night:
- This "evidence" you are looking at to draw these conclusions is collected from weather stations at the international standard of 2 meters above the ground in open areas with no cover and minimal vegetation. This has nothing to do with the environment that a sulcata would live in underground.
- Where are these above ground weather stations you are looking sat i relation to where sulcatas actually live? Could be hundreds of miles away. Look at the vast weather and climate difference just 104 miles away from you in Palm Springs. I took a look at the distribution map in "The Crying Tortoise", and then looked at a map to find cities nearest those pockets where sulcata actually occur. The lowest low I've seen is 67, BUT, that 67 degree night is going to be followed by a day in the mid to high 90's. In essence that is summer up here in the Santa Clarita area. Your weather down there will never be that warm. When was the last time it reached 98 degrees in Huntington Beach?
- If you only have a night box with the temp set in the 60s, how will your tortoise warm up when outside temps are cold and days are overcast? Even on sunny days, it doesn't get warm enough where you are in fall, spring or winter. You realize that as an ectotherm, your tortoise needs external heat to survive. When given the choice, they keep their body temperature close to the same that we do by moving in an out of warmer areas. Even if your tortoise does survive the unnaturally cold nights, how will it warm up the next day at the beach in winter?
- Ask your trained professional vet how many sulcatas he/she has raised from hatchling to adulthood using the info that is being recommended to you. Then come back here and ask me and some of the others that have been advising you here. Where is your vet getting that info? Is it from decades of first hand experience with dozens of animals, or was it read from a book or website?
Former Member
New Member
!.
i agree with you
2.
Last year it hit 99 one day but runs in the 80-90s feven right now.
We do not get the rain you get in your area or as cold as your area..
Where is there any place they tak ground temps?
3.
So far he has been living out side for the last 5 years.
Our soil is more clay then sand so it reflects and contains the heat.
The Vet comes by for BBQs and sees how he is doing.
He says it is one of the healthiest he has ever seen.
4.
I am not sure how many he raised.
He runs the rescue for this breed.
At this time he has from 350lb to 40 lb ones.
Last count he had one female and 10 adults outside.
He does have a house more like a shed for the outside animals
There are some smaller ones in the house.
I am not sure how many for sure.
He has been doing this for a lot of years.
So probably hundreds
How many have you raised or owned?
I am wondering why you did not answer where you were in Africa where there was a lot of tortoises..
Are you avoiding the question?
I really do not want to get in a pissing match with you.
I have witnessed you have some good information that you share.
I was never trying to put you down for any reason so i do not understand your attitude..
Lets face it if your schooled in a field there going to know thing the average person does not.
The person who raises them gain a lot of personal experience.
If you do both you probably know about everything about the animal but can still learn.
i agree with you
2.
Last year it hit 99 one day but runs in the 80-90s feven right now.
We do not get the rain you get in your area or as cold as your area..
Where is there any place they tak ground temps?
3.
So far he has been living out side for the last 5 years.
Our soil is more clay then sand so it reflects and contains the heat.
The Vet comes by for BBQs and sees how he is doing.
He says it is one of the healthiest he has ever seen.
4.
I am not sure how many he raised.
He runs the rescue for this breed.
At this time he has from 350lb to 40 lb ones.
Last count he had one female and 10 adults outside.
He does have a house more like a shed for the outside animals
There are some smaller ones in the house.
I am not sure how many for sure.
He has been doing this for a lot of years.
So probably hundreds
How many have you raised or owned?
I am wondering why you did not answer where you were in Africa where there was a lot of tortoises..
Are you avoiding the question?
I really do not want to get in a pissing match with you.
I have witnessed you have some good information that you share.
I was never trying to put you down for any reason so i do not understand your attitude..
Lets face it if your schooled in a field there going to know thing the average person does not.
The person who raises them gain a lot of personal experience.
If you do both you probably know about everything about the animal but can still learn.
350 LB Sulcata? I'd love to see a photo of that!
Careful what you ask for,,,this guy is probably closer to 400 than 300...so you get a hundred pound bonus!
And this 300 pounder is one of the most perfect specimens I've EVER seen!
Here he is in action!
@Vigil In reading this perhaps it is of value to offer points I have often pondered...
Why do we often put so much stock in their "natural conditions" and what they survive in the wild, in reference to best husbandry practices? I think there is great value in looking at conditions they seek out for optimal periods when they thrive. But wild tortoises spend so much time trying to avoid the conditions they are forced to endure so much of the time. I do not believe tortoises live in "optimal conditions" and in an optimal habitat. I believe the live where they have found a way to survive where other more successful competitors and predators find it difficult. They are in "left-over" habitat. Tortoises are just too easy prey, especially when young. They have been outcompeted and preyed upon in prime habitat by larger grazing animals and by predators for thousands of years. Where they have been able to survive is the less favorable habitats where the mammals have much more trouble surviving. Here they have carved out a niche where they can still survive and have mitigated much of the competitor grazing and a lot of the predation. But it is by no means optimal. So they have developed extreme survival techniques. In fact, it is so marginal, out of 200-400 tortoises that will hatch, only one can survive these conditions. Are these the conditions we strive to duplicate in captivity in learning bests practices for our tortoises? Daytme temperatures can become so hot, any animal would perish, so these tortoises have found ways to hide from those high temps deep underground. Do we want to duplicate that? Low temperatures can dip to where metabolism stops in a ectotherm like our tortoises. So they have found a way to hide from that and have only been able to survive in areas where daytime temps rise quickly to overcome that problem. Do we want to duplicate that? We see them thrive in the monsoon season, but then forced to endure the times without rain by going underground again, barely growing and living off some forage they drug into the burrow with them. Waiting for the next monsoon season to some again. Is that the conditions we want to duplicate, or is it the monsoon season that makes more sense?
To look at what they can survive to justify how much we can stress our captive and get away with is a futile and misleading endeavor. Why not spend our time looking at what conditions they seek out and thrive in, instead of what they can survive?
Wow! How old are these giants?Careful what you ask for,,,this guy is probably closer to 400 than 300...so you get a hundred pound bonus!
And this 300 pounder is one of the most perfect specimens I've EVER seen!
Here he is in action!
Former Member
New Member
Your tortoises looks very healthy and happy
Thanks for the great pictures.
Where do your animals stay in the winter?
if your tortoise is 400 lb i think the one in rescue may be around the same weight.
I was guessing by what mine weighs but have no real idea.
The larger ones usually stick around till they can find a zoo.
Most people do not have room for a 100lb or bigger tortoise.
The rescue had one for several years that was over 450.
It was adopted by a zoo
I only have one but the rescue saw my area and would like me to take more.
I have him in my yard that is trees and grass.
It is 50 x 60 foot bricked in area so he can never devour all the grass and fresh leaves
He has been digging a hole in a corner under some brushes.
It faces the center of the yard so I am not to worried about him leaving.
I leave the garage door open and he comes in at night for now.
That is the reason i asked about a house for him.
I would like my garage back for my hot rod.
Thanks for the great pictures.
Where do your animals stay in the winter?
if your tortoise is 400 lb i think the one in rescue may be around the same weight.
I was guessing by what mine weighs but have no real idea.
The larger ones usually stick around till they can find a zoo.
Most people do not have room for a 100lb or bigger tortoise.
The rescue had one for several years that was over 450.
It was adopted by a zoo
I only have one but the rescue saw my area and would like me to take more.
I have him in my yard that is trees and grass.
It is 50 x 60 foot bricked in area so he can never devour all the grass and fresh leaves
He has been digging a hole in a corner under some brushes.
It faces the center of the yard so I am not to worried about him leaving.
I leave the garage door open and he comes in at night for now.
That is the reason i asked about a house for him.
I would like my garage back for my hot rod.
I always thought this was a good idea
It looks like Vigil has left the forum. He didn't seem to want pesky facts or decades of experience with this species getting in the way of housing his first sulcata too cold.
In the off chance that he is still reading, and for anyone else that might still be reading this thread, check this thread out. Here is the result of just two nights at 60 degrees: https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/baytril-for-sick-sulcatas.162353/
In the off chance that he is still reading, and for anyone else that might still be reading this thread, check this thread out. Here is the result of just two nights at 60 degrees: https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/baytril-for-sick-sulcatas.162353/
Good idea for what? Its too small for anything but a little tortoise, and the "house" portion is not insulated, sealed, or made to the dimensions that are practical and usable for a tortoise. Plus the doors are way too tall and too big. That will let all the heat out. There is also no visual barrier around the bottom of the welded wire outdoor portion. That is a recipe for disaster.
I don't think this product is well suited for tortoise use in any way.
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