Adopting any tortoises that need a home in south Florida

[Evansky]

Hi

Can someone provide examples of troubles when mixing species? E.g. links to posts?

What I see about mixing species
1. Disease transmission - in a group living together for a long time it's less an issue. But when introducing new tortoises to the group this can happen - no matter if species match or not.
2. Different care requirements. This can be a factor, but both Redfoots and Sulcatas probably enjoy the climate. In more arid and hot regions this wouldn't work that nice - redfoots will require shaded and humid area. However, if they eat from the same dish - that's where problems may arise: fruit, animal matter and mushrooms will upset sulcata's stomach easily. This can be addressed.
3. Aggression and competion for resources (water dishes, basking spots, shade) and silly accidents. This probably is the most serious. Mixing species in zoos is a bad example here (I have seen a redfoot rushing and ramming Testudos in zoo exhibition). Some of such behaviour can be noticed (e.g. redfoot "basking" in a full midday sun when sulcatas sleep in shade), some is not that easy (e.g. when some tortoises don't self-soak). Accidents is about sulcatas doing usual stuff not caring about stepping on and pushing neighbours).
4. Chronical stress - that's hard to assess. Just some tortoises losing weight, being less active than others, getting sick often... Easy to spot in pairs of the same species, though.

Points 3 and 4 probably require an "emergency" plan on separating tortoises by species or removing "a****holes" from the group.

Are there more reasons I have overlooked here?

P.S. this thread looks upsetting... reminds me of a school gang explaining "the rules" to a newcomer.

I just read your post ,

Can someone provide examples of troubles when mixing species? E.g. links to posts?

What I see about mixing species
1. Disease transmission - in a group living together for a long time it's less an issue. But when introducing new tortoises to the group this can happen - no matter if species match or not.
2. Different care requirements. This can be a factor, but both Redfoots and Sulcatas probably enjoy the climate. In more arid and hot regions this wouldn't work that nice - redfoots will require shaded and humid area. However, if they eat from the same dish - that's where problems may arise: fruit, animal matter and mushrooms will upset sulcata's stomach easily. This can be addressed.
3. Aggression and competion for resources (water dishes, basking spots, shade) and silly accidents. This probably is the most serious. Mixing species in zoos is a bad example here (I have seen a redfoot rushing and ramming Testudos in zoo exhibition). Some of such behaviour can be noticed (e.g. redfoot "basking" in a full midday sun when sulcatas sleep in shade), some is not that easy (e.g. when some tortoises don't self-soak). Accidents is about sulcatas doing usual stuff not caring about stepping on and pushing neighbours).
4. Chronical stress - that's hard to assess. Just some tortoises losing weight, being less active than others, getting sick often... Easy to spot in pairs of the same species, though.

Points 3 and 4 probably require an "emergency" plan on separating tortoises by species or removing "a****holes" from the group.

Are there more reasons I have overlooked here?

P.S. this thread looks upsetting... reminds me of a school gang explaining "the rules" to a newcomer.

hey just read your post , number one would have to be one of the most important because you don’t want to get your tortoises sick by adding a new one with problems , so it’s best to keep the new one aside in its own habitat so it can be examined and make sure it’s healthy and good temperament to join the group , as for #2 and #3 that’s no problem where I am at , I have many plants and trees and bushes in their habitat for shade and I also have ponds for them to soak and relax and it’s a big space so they never have to worry about losing territory, and for food just feed them separately . Sulcatas should be fed grass and hay , and red foots can eat fruit , meat and other similar things . Just feed them in different places . As for #4 that’s up to you to keep an eye on your animals , regularly pick them up , interact with them , be with them , give them health check ups , what ever you have to do .also Sulcatas aren’t really agressive , that’s just the big bully males and that’s simple don’t buy a male and your all good with that 👍

 

[Evansky]

About links to threads explaining - trouble being, because tortoises are slow to get sick and show symptoms quite often when a tortoise gets sick and dies no one remembers way back when the owner of that tortoise posted that they were keeping different species together. It's hard to put 2 and 2 together when it happens too far away from the initial happening. Tortoises have evolved to live with the little microorganisms inside their body. These microorganisms are different from the ones that tortoises on other continents have evolved to live with. When you put two tortoises from different continents together those different microorganism make the other tortoises sick. It's been a very long time, but I THINK I first read about this in a paper written by Attenborough.

We’ve all evolved to live with micro organisms inside us , even you and me . It’s not that deep , that’s just another excuse as to why not to do something . People mix all the time we all have different micro organisms but it’s all good ☮️

 

[Evansky]

Have you ever randomly divided a group of clutch mates and kept half inside in a proper closed chamber and the other half outside full time? If you ever had, you would understand why I say this. If you ever do it, the difference will be obvious and you will change your mind about this, just as I did. As I said to Evansky, this is true of CB babies even in their native ranges, which could not be more ideal for the species.

Anything to tell Evansky about feeding them on sand or mixing species?

Yes I’ve done this the tortoises outside grow faster and healthier , every time .

 

[Alex and the Redfoot]

We’ve all evolved to live with micro organisms inside us , even you and me . It’s not that deep , that’s just another excuse as to why not to do something . People mix all the time we all have different micro organisms but it’s all good ☮️

I think this is more about mixing wild caught and captive bred tortoises.

However, there are few deadly infections emerging now, like TINC, adenovirus, to less extent, mycoplasmosis. Some animals carry them without symptoms. And introducing sick captive bred tortoise can be a risk too. Another bad thing about it is that diagnostics aren't cheap at all and not all vets aware of these diseases.

 

[Anastasia 22]

We’ve all evolved to live with micro organisms inside us , even you and me . It’s not that deep , that’s just another excuse as to why not to do something . People mix all the time we all have different micro organisms but it’s all good ☮️

Yes, we are evolved. But! Our bodies are becoming weaker nowadays. Stress, overwhelming, bacteria and viruses, micro organisms, environmental factors etc destroys our immune system and it leads to the cell mutation (=cancer, MS). It is deeper than you think.
Please, take care of yourself and your tortoises.

 

[Alex and the Redfoot]

Hi

I just read your post ,

hey just read your post , number one would have to be one of the most important because you don’t want to get your tortoises sick by adding a new one with problems , so it’s best to keep the new one aside in its own habitat so it can be examined and make sure it’s healthy and good temperament to join the group , as for #2 and #3 that’s no problem where I am at , I have many plants and trees and bushes in their habitat for shade and I also have ponds for them to soak and relax and it’s a big space so they never have to worry about losing territory, and for food just feed them separately . Sulcatas should be fed grass and hay , and red foots can eat fruit , meat and other similar things . Just feed them in different places . As for #4 that’s up to you to keep an eye on your animals , regularly pick them up , interact with them , be with them , give them health check ups , what ever you have to do .also Sulcatas aren’t really agressive , that’s just the big bully males and that’s simple don’t buy a male and your all good with that 👍

Hi!
I'm glad you have addressed the possible risks. I just thought it would be unfair to say "never do that", without explaining why

All of the things listed above are more about risk management. With some bad luck you can get cryptosporidium across all your groups, sulcatas will go crazy about papaya in redfoots dishes and stomp some of them without intention and so on. I'm sincerely happy that the way you care for your tortoises worked for you for 24 years.

Are your redfoots and sulcata hatchlings grow in the same areas as adult animals? Or you have some designated enclosures? I'm really intrigued how you raised your redfoots. I'm not into breeding (and, probably, would never be) but I like to learn about how people set up tortoise habitats. Maybe you have some redfoot yearlings photos?

 

[dd33]

Mixing species

Hi

so it’s best to keep the new one aside in its own habitat so it can be examined and make sure it’s healthy and good temperament to join the group ,

You are taking a HUGE risk if you have a lot of tortoises coming and going in your collection. Especially in Florida. Quarantine based on an observation period is basically worthless for two reasons.
1. Some serious diseases like TINC can go undetected in an animal for at least a year or more. There are redfoots in Florida that have broken with the disease 14 months after changing hands.
2. Before the animal visibly breaks with the disease it has likely already begun shedding. If the animals are quarantined outdoors on the same property this is can be a big problem. Unless you are extremely diligent with biosecurity you will likely spread it yourself between enclosures. Other vectors include birds sharing the water bowls, animals walking through the enclosure, and likely even insects coming into contact with the tortoises themselves or their poop. Once on your in your collection and on your property there is often no known method to eliminate them from the environment, in the case of TINC it has been dramatically suggested to burn the entire property and/or remove 12-18" of soil.

You need to be very careful where you get your animals from. Dealing with a disease outbreak in a large collection of tortoises is a nightmare.

 

[ZEROPILOT]

Have you ever randomly divided a group of clutch mates and kept half inside in a proper closed chamber and the other half outside full time? If you ever had, you would understand why I say this. If you ever do it, the difference will be obvious and you will change your mind about this, just as I did. As I said to Evansky, this is true of CB babies even in their native ranges, which could not be more ideal for the species.

Anything to tell Evansky about feeding them on sand or mixing species?

I only defended the fact that I've kept baby Redfoot that I've hatched outside, outside.
It's 4 for 4 so far.
I don't agree with a few of the other issues. Not at all. And I'm not trying to defend anyone for those practices.
I do see that mixed in with some pretty bad keeping practices that it ALL sounds just horrible when mentioned in the same post.
But I was only attempting to partially justify the one part.
I will not be sending any other tortoises to this particular member in the future. I had no idea that things were so out of hand. Or that so much was being done that would've been big red flags.

 

[Evansky]

I only defended the fact that I've kept baby Redfoot that I've hatched outside, outside.
It's 4 for 4 so far.
I don't agree with a few of the other issues. Not at all. And I'm not trying to defend anyone for those practices.
I do see that mixed in with some pretty bad keeping practices that it ALL sounds just horrible when mentioned in the same post.
But I was only attempting to partially justify the one part.
I will not be sending any other tortoises to this particular member in the future. I had no idea that things were so out of hand. Or that so much was being done that would've been big red flags.

No like I told the other person , I’m good I don’t want to take in anything anymore , I haven’t taken in a new tortoise in years the last tortoise i took in was probably the red foot female I bought from you in like 2015 which I still have and is doing great btw 🤙🏼. And lol what’s out of hand that the female Sulcatas interact with the red foot’s , that’s silly . And the tortoises don’t feed on sand that was literally a planted cactus it was eating the sand was just for basking but yea no worries after all the disease and virus talk everyone was bringing up I’m good on brining in anything new so disregard this post , I had just expanded my habitat and wanted to help tortoises in need but I’ve change my mind

 

[Evansky]

Hi!
I'm glad you have addressed the possible risks. I just thought it would be unfair to say "never do that", without explaining why

All of the things listed above are more about risk management. With some bad luck you can get cryptosporidium across all your groups, sulcatas will go crazy about papaya in redfoots dishes and stomp some of them without intention and so on. I'm sincerely happy that the way you care for your tortoises worked for you for 24 years.

Are your redfoots and sulcata hatchlings grow in the same areas as adult animals? Or you have some designated enclosures? I'm really intrigued how you raised your redfoots. I'm not into breeding (and, probably, would never be) but I like to learn about how people set up tortoise habitats. Maybe you have some redfoot yearlings photos?

Hi yea I don’t have photos on my phone but I can take some when I get back I have babies and young red foots in their own enclosure away from the adults , the baby red foots are even separated from the older babies depending on size and right now I don’t have any baby Sulcatas , I don’t breed them either but sometimes they have babies and I just keep them and raise them to adults I don’t sell anything I love them too much lol I prefer the tortoise over money any day but yes everything is kept safely according to size

 

[Evansky]

Mixing species

You are taking a HUGE risk if you have a lot of tortoises coming and going in your collection. Especially in Florida. Quarantine based on an observation period is basically worthless for two reasons.
1. Some serious diseases like TINC can go undetected in an animal for at least a year or more. There are redfoots in Florida that have broken with the disease 14 months after changing hands.
2. Before the animal visibly breaks with the disease it has likely already begun shedding. If the animals are quarantined outdoors on the same property this is can be a big problem. Unless you are extremely diligent with biosecurity you will likely spread it yourself between enclosures. Other vectors include birds sharing the water bowls, animals walking through the enclosure, and likely even insects coming into contact with the tortoises themselves or their poop. Once on your in your collection and on your property there is often no known method to eliminate them from the environment, in the case of TINC it has been dramatically suggested to burn the entire property and/or remove 12-18" of soil.

You need to be very careful where you get your animals from. Dealing with a disease outbreak in a large collection of tortoises is a nightmare.

I agree with everything you said 100 % , I haven’t had any new tortoise come in years and I’m not looking for new tortoises , I just upgraded my space and have a lot of new free space so I was thinking I can take in some red foots or female Sulcatas , and I remembered this forum I used to have an account here, I made it like 10 years ago but I forgot the log in and stuff so I had to make a new one, but nah after all this I’m good lol

 

[Evansky]

Mixing species

You are taking a HUGE risk if you have a lot of tortoises coming and going in your collection. Especially in Florida. Quarantine based on an observation period is basically worthless for two reasons.
1. Some serious diseases like TINC can go undetected in an animal for at least a year or more. There are redfoots in Florida that have broken with the disease 14 months after changing hands.
2. Before the animal visibly breaks with the disease it has likely already begun shedding. If the animals are quarantined outdoors on the same property this is can be a big problem. Unless you are extremely diligent with biosecurity you will likely spread it yourself between enclosures. Other vectors include birds sharing the water bowls, animals walking through the enclosure, and likely even insects coming into contact with the tortoises themselves or their poop. Once on your in your collection and on your property there is often no known method to eliminate them from the environment, in the case of TINC it has been dramatically suggested to burn the entire property and/or remove 12-18" of soil.

You need to be very careful where you get your animals from. Dealing with a disease outbreak in a large collection of tortoises is a nightmare.

Your tortoises are beautiful btw just saw your picture , I’ve always wanted an aldabra but too expensive