Adopting any tortoises that need a home in south Florida

[Evansky]

Hi

Can someone provide examples of troubles when mixing species? E.g. links to posts?

What I see about mixing species
1. Disease transmission - in a group living together for a long time it's less an issue. But when introducing new tortoises to the group this can happen - no matter if species match or not.
2. Different care requirements. This can be a factor, but both Redfoots and Sulcatas probably enjoy the climate. In more arid and hot regions this wouldn't work that nice - redfoots will require shaded and humid area. However, if they eat from the same dish - that's where problems may arise: fruit, animal matter and mushrooms will upset sulcata's stomach easily. This can be addressed.
3. Aggression and competion for resources (water dishes, basking spots, shade) and silly accidents. This probably is the most serious. Mixing species in zoos is a bad example here (I have seen a redfoot rushing and ramming Testudos in zoo exhibition). Some of such behaviour can be noticed (e.g. redfoot "basking" in a full midday sun when sulcatas sleep in shade), some is not that easy (e.g. when some tortoises don't self-soak). Accidents is about sulcatas doing usual stuff not caring about stepping on and pushing neighbours).
4. Chronical stress - that's hard to assess. Just some tortoises losing weight, being less active than others, getting sick often... Easy to spot in pairs of the same species, though.

Points 3 and 4 probably require an "emergency" plan on separating tortoises by species or removing "a****holes" from the group.

Are there more reasons I have overlooked here?

P.S. this thread looks upsetting... reminds me of a school gang explaining "the rules" to a newcomer.

I just read your post ,

Can someone provide examples of troubles when mixing species? E.g. links to posts?

What I see about mixing species
1. Disease transmission - in a group living together for a long time it's less an issue. But when introducing new tortoises to the group this can happen - no matter if species match or not.
2. Different care requirements. This can be a factor, but both Redfoots and Sulcatas probably enjoy the climate. In more arid and hot regions this wouldn't work that nice - redfoots will require shaded and humid area. However, if they eat from the same dish - that's where problems may arise: fruit, animal matter and mushrooms will upset sulcata's stomach easily. This can be addressed.
3. Aggression and competion for resources (water dishes, basking spots, shade) and silly accidents. This probably is the most serious. Mixing species in zoos is a bad example here (I have seen a redfoot rushing and ramming Testudos in zoo exhibition). Some of such behaviour can be noticed (e.g. redfoot "basking" in a full midday sun when sulcatas sleep in shade), some is not that easy (e.g. when some tortoises don't self-soak). Accidents is about sulcatas doing usual stuff not caring about stepping on and pushing neighbours).
4. Chronical stress - that's hard to assess. Just some tortoises losing weight, being less active than others, getting sick often... Easy to spot in pairs of the same species, though.

Points 3 and 4 probably require an "emergency" plan on separating tortoises by species or removing "a****holes" from the group.

Are there more reasons I have overlooked here?

P.S. this thread looks upsetting... reminds me of a school gang explaining "the rules" to a newcomer.

hey just read your post , number one would have to be one of the most important because you don’t want to get your tortoises sick by adding a new one with problems , so it’s best to keep the new one aside in its own habitat so it can be examined and make sure it’s healthy and good temperament to join the group , as for #2 and #3 that’s no problem where I am at , I have many plants and trees and bushes in their habitat for shade and I also have ponds for them to soak and relax and it’s a big space so they never have to worry about losing territory, and for food just feed them separately . Sulcatas should be fed grass and hay , and red foots can eat fruit , meat and other similar things . Just feed them in different places . As for #4 that’s up to you to keep an eye on your animals , regularly pick them up , interact with them , be with them , give them health check ups , what ever you have to do .also Sulcatas aren’t really agressive , that’s just the big bully males and that’s simple don’t buy a male and your all good with that 👍

 

[Evansky]

About links to threads explaining - trouble being, because tortoises are slow to get sick and show symptoms quite often when a tortoise gets sick and dies no one remembers way back when the owner of that tortoise posted that they were keeping different species together. It's hard to put 2 and 2 together when it happens too far away from the initial happening. Tortoises have evolved to live with the little microorganisms inside their body. These microorganisms are different from the ones that tortoises on other continents have evolved to live with. When you put two tortoises from different continents together those different microorganism make the other tortoises sick. It's been a very long time, but I THINK I first read about this in a paper written by Attenborough.

We’ve all evolved to live with micro organisms inside us , even you and me . It’s not that deep , that’s just another excuse as to why not to do something . People mix all the time we all have different micro organisms but it’s all good ☮️

 

[Evansky]

Have you ever randomly divided a group of clutch mates and kept half inside in a proper closed chamber and the other half outside full time? If you ever had, you would understand why I say this. If you ever do it, the difference will be obvious and you will change your mind about this, just as I did. As I said to Evansky, this is true of CB babies even in their native ranges, which could not be more ideal for the species.

Anything to tell Evansky about feeding them on sand or mixing species?

Yes I’ve done this the tortoises outside grow faster and healthier , every time .

 

[Alex and the Redfoot]

We’ve all evolved to live with micro organisms inside us , even you and me . It’s not that deep , that’s just another excuse as to why not to do something . People mix all the time we all have different micro organisms but it’s all good ☮️

I think this is more about mixing wild caught and captive bred tortoises.

However, there are few deadly infections emerging now, like TINC, adenovirus, to less extent, mycoplasmosis. Some animals carry them without symptoms. And introducing sick captive bred tortoise can be a risk too. Another bad thing about it is that diagnostics aren't cheap at all and not all vets aware of these diseases.

 

[Anastasia 22]

We’ve all evolved to live with micro organisms inside us , even you and me . It’s not that deep , that’s just another excuse as to why not to do something . People mix all the time we all have different micro organisms but it’s all good ☮️

Yes, we are evolved. But! Our bodies are becoming weaker nowadays. Stress, overwhelming, bacteria and viruses, micro organisms, environmental factors etc destroys our immune system and it leads to the cell mutation (=cancer, MS). It is deeper than you think.
Please, take care of yourself and your tortoises.

 

[Alex and the Redfoot]

Hi

I just read your post ,

hey just read your post , number one would have to be one of the most important because you don’t want to get your tortoises sick by adding a new one with problems , so it’s best to keep the new one aside in its own habitat so it can be examined and make sure it’s healthy and good temperament to join the group , as for #2 and #3 that’s no problem where I am at , I have many plants and trees and bushes in their habitat for shade and I also have ponds for them to soak and relax and it’s a big space so they never have to worry about losing territory, and for food just feed them separately . Sulcatas should be fed grass and hay , and red foots can eat fruit , meat and other similar things . Just feed them in different places . As for #4 that’s up to you to keep an eye on your animals , regularly pick them up , interact with them , be with them , give them health check ups , what ever you have to do .also Sulcatas aren’t really agressive , that’s just the big bully males and that’s simple don’t buy a male and your all good with that 👍

Hi!
I'm glad you have addressed the possible risks. I just thought it would be unfair to say "never do that", without explaining why

All of the things listed above are more about risk management. With some bad luck you can get cryptosporidium across all your groups, sulcatas will go crazy about papaya in redfoots dishes and stomp some of them without intention and so on. I'm sincerely happy that the way you care for your tortoises worked for you for 24 years.

Are your redfoots and sulcata hatchlings grow in the same areas as adult animals? Or you have some designated enclosures? I'm really intrigued how you raised your redfoots. I'm not into breeding (and, probably, would never be) but I like to learn about how people set up tortoise habitats. Maybe you have some redfoot yearlings photos?

 

[dd33]

Mixing species

Hi

so it’s best to keep the new one aside in its own habitat so it can be examined and make sure it’s healthy and good temperament to join the group ,

You are taking a HUGE risk if you have a lot of tortoises coming and going in your collection. Especially in Florida. Quarantine based on an observation period is basically worthless for two reasons.
1. Some serious diseases like TINC can go undetected in an animal for at least a year or more. There are redfoots in Florida that have broken with the disease 14 months after changing hands.
2. Before the animal visibly breaks with the disease it has likely already begun shedding. If the animals are quarantined outdoors on the same property this is can be a big problem. Unless you are extremely diligent with biosecurity you will likely spread it yourself between enclosures. Other vectors include birds sharing the water bowls, animals walking through the enclosure, and likely even insects coming into contact with the tortoises themselves or their poop. Once on your in your collection and on your property there is often no known method to eliminate them from the environment, in the case of TINC it has been dramatically suggested to burn the entire property and/or remove 12-18" of soil.

You need to be very careful where you get your animals from. Dealing with a disease outbreak in a large collection of tortoises is a nightmare.

 

[ZEROPILOT]

Have you ever randomly divided a group of clutch mates and kept half inside in a proper closed chamber and the other half outside full time? If you ever had, you would understand why I say this. If you ever do it, the difference will be obvious and you will change your mind about this, just as I did. As I said to Evansky, this is true of CB babies even in their native ranges, which could not be more ideal for the species.

Anything to tell Evansky about feeding them on sand or mixing species?

I only defended the fact that I've kept baby Redfoot that I've hatched outside, outside.
It's 4 for 4 so far.
I don't agree with a few of the other issues. Not at all. And I'm not trying to defend anyone for those practices.
I do see that mixed in with some pretty bad keeping practices that it ALL sounds just horrible when mentioned in the same post.
But I was only attempting to partially justify the one part.
I will not be sending any other tortoises to this particular member in the future. I had no idea that things were so out of hand. Or that so much was being done that would've been big red flags.

 

[Evansky]

I only defended the fact that I've kept baby Redfoot that I've hatched outside, outside.
It's 4 for 4 so far.
I don't agree with a few of the other issues. Not at all. And I'm not trying to defend anyone for those practices.
I do see that mixed in with some pretty bad keeping practices that it ALL sounds just horrible when mentioned in the same post.
But I was only attempting to partially justify the one part.
I will not be sending any other tortoises to this particular member in the future. I had no idea that things were so out of hand. Or that so much was being done that would've been big red flags.

No like I told the other person , I’m good I don’t want to take in anything anymore , I haven’t taken in a new tortoise in years the last tortoise i took in was probably the red foot female I bought from you in like 2015 which I still have and is doing great btw 🤙🏼. And lol what’s out of hand that the female Sulcatas interact with the red foot’s , that’s silly . And the tortoises don’t feed on sand that was literally a planted cactus it was eating the sand was just for basking but yea no worries after all the disease and virus talk everyone was bringing up I’m good on brining in anything new so disregard this post , I had just expanded my habitat and wanted to help tortoises in need but I’ve change my mind

 

[Evansky]

Hi!
I'm glad you have addressed the possible risks. I just thought it would be unfair to say "never do that", without explaining why

All of the things listed above are more about risk management. With some bad luck you can get cryptosporidium across all your groups, sulcatas will go crazy about papaya in redfoots dishes and stomp some of them without intention and so on. I'm sincerely happy that the way you care for your tortoises worked for you for 24 years.

Are your redfoots and sulcata hatchlings grow in the same areas as adult animals? Or you have some designated enclosures? I'm really intrigued how you raised your redfoots. I'm not into breeding (and, probably, would never be) but I like to learn about how people set up tortoise habitats. Maybe you have some redfoot yearlings photos?

Hi yea I don’t have photos on my phone but I can take some when I get back I have babies and young red foots in their own enclosure away from the adults , the baby red foots are even separated from the older babies depending on size and right now I don’t have any baby Sulcatas , I don’t breed them either but sometimes they have babies and I just keep them and raise them to adults I don’t sell anything I love them too much lol I prefer the tortoise over money any day but yes everything is kept safely according to size

 

[Evansky]

Mixing species

You are taking a HUGE risk if you have a lot of tortoises coming and going in your collection. Especially in Florida. Quarantine based on an observation period is basically worthless for two reasons.
1. Some serious diseases like TINC can go undetected in an animal for at least a year or more. There are redfoots in Florida that have broken with the disease 14 months after changing hands.
2. Before the animal visibly breaks with the disease it has likely already begun shedding. If the animals are quarantined outdoors on the same property this is can be a big problem. Unless you are extremely diligent with biosecurity you will likely spread it yourself between enclosures. Other vectors include birds sharing the water bowls, animals walking through the enclosure, and likely even insects coming into contact with the tortoises themselves or their poop. Once on your in your collection and on your property there is often no known method to eliminate them from the environment, in the case of TINC it has been dramatically suggested to burn the entire property and/or remove 12-18" of soil.

You need to be very careful where you get your animals from. Dealing with a disease outbreak in a large collection of tortoises is a nightmare.

I agree with everything you said 100 % , I haven’t had any new tortoise come in years and I’m not looking for new tortoises , I just upgraded my space and have a lot of new free space so I was thinking I can take in some red foots or female Sulcatas , and I remembered this forum I used to have an account here, I made it like 10 years ago but I forgot the log in and stuff so I had to make a new one, but nah after all this I’m good lol

 

[Evansky]

Mixing species

You are taking a HUGE risk if you have a lot of tortoises coming and going in your collection. Especially in Florida. Quarantine based on an observation period is basically worthless for two reasons.
1. Some serious diseases like TINC can go undetected in an animal for at least a year or more. There are redfoots in Florida that have broken with the disease 14 months after changing hands.
2. Before the animal visibly breaks with the disease it has likely already begun shedding. If the animals are quarantined outdoors on the same property this is can be a big problem. Unless you are extremely diligent with biosecurity you will likely spread it yourself between enclosures. Other vectors include birds sharing the water bowls, animals walking through the enclosure, and likely even insects coming into contact with the tortoises themselves or their poop. Once on your in your collection and on your property there is often no known method to eliminate them from the environment, in the case of TINC it has been dramatically suggested to burn the entire property and/or remove 12-18" of soil.

You need to be very careful where you get your animals from. Dealing with a disease outbreak in a large collection of tortoises is a nightmare.

Your tortoises are beautiful btw just saw your picture , I’ve always wanted an aldabra but too expensive

 

[Rynan]

I do agree with everyone but Evansky has a good heart. Everyone is just trying to give the best advice they can. I forgot whose post I read earlier but it mentioned rescuing a tortoise from a terrible situation and placing it in another unideal situation is also terrible. I'm paraphrasing but I don't think that's the case here. Although his environment is not 100% ideal, however if he's able to save some truly unfortunate tortoises like some I've seen on craigslist and different rescues and provide them a temporary place until he can find them a better forever home then it's still helping the tortoises. Progress and never perfection, as long as it's an improvement, it should be counted as a win.

Going off topic a bit, some dogs get kibbles everyday and a dog house to sleep outside. Some dogs get A5 Wagyu, massages and travel via private jet and helicopter rides. Not all conditions are the same. Point is always going at it with the best intention and keep an open mind, if it's something you can improve, try it. If you are set on not changing your way, that's okay too, but people will always have their opinions.

 

[Tom]

I do agree with everyone but Evansky has a good heart. Everyone is just trying to give the best advice they can. I forgot whose post I read earlier but it mentioned rescuing a tortoise from a terrible situation and placing it in another unideal situation is also terrible. I'm paraphrasing but I don't think that's the case here. Although his environment is not 100% ideal, however if he's able to save some truly unfortunate tortoises like some I've seen on craigslist and different rescues and provide them a temporary place until he can find them a better forever home then it's still helping the tortoises. Progress and never perfection, as long as it's an improvement, it should be counted as a win.

Going off topic a bit, some dogs get kibbles everyday and a dog house to sleep outside. Some dogs get A5 Wagyu, massages and travel via private jet and helicopter rides. Not all conditions are the same. Point is always going at it with the best intention and keep an open mind, if it's something you can improve, try it. If you are set on not changing your way, that's okay too, but people will always have their opinions.

This is a great sentiment, and I generally agree with what you are trying to get across here. The problem is that you and Evansky, and I'm sure many other people reading along, don't understand the severity of the issues at hand and what is happening out in the tortoise world right now because of people doing these things, and other people that just want to get along and don't say anything.

Here is an analogy that I've come up with: There are many ways to drive down the freeway. You can go fast and pass in the passing lane. You can drive slower and stay out of the way in the slow lane. You can change lanes frequently as long as its safe to do so, or you can pick one lane and stay in it the whole time. There are many ways to go down the freeway, and everyone can choose to do it how they want, and everything is fine. What Evansky is doing though is different. He's driving the wrong way on the freeway. He's heading southbound in the northbound lanes. There is no way to do that safely. Its wrong and people should say it is wrong publicly. No one should be driving the wrong way on the freeway. A fatal crash is likely, we all see it, and we are trying to stop it. He then says that other people do it too, as if that is justification somehow, and makes it okay. It isn't okay. No way no how.

This is not a live and let live situation. This is not a my way or the highway situation. This is a situation of some really bad stuff happening that is doing harm to animals, and the trouble being caused is likely to spread outside of his walls in one way or another eventually, as well as being terrible for the animals inside his walls right now.

 

[Rynan]

This is a great sentiment, and I generally agree with what you are trying to get across here. The problem is that you and Evansky, and I'm sure many other people reading along, don't understand the severity of the issues at hand and what is happening out in the tortoise world right now because of people doing these things, and other people that just want to get along and don't say anything.

Here is an analogy that I've come up with: There are many ways to drive down the freeway. You can go fast and pass in the passing lane. You can drive slower and stay out of the way in the slow lane. You can change lanes frequently as long as its safe to do so, or you can pick one lane and stay in it the whole time. There are many ways to go down the freeway, and everyone can choose to do it how they want, and everything is fine. What Evansky is doing though is different. He's driving the wrong way on the freeway. He's heading southbound in the northbound lanes. There is no way to do that safely. Its wrong and people should say it is wrong publicly. No one should be driving the wrong way on the freeway. A fatal crash is likely, we all see it, and we are trying to stop it. He then says that other people do it too, as if that is justification somehow, and makes it okay. It isn't okay. No way no how.

This is not a live and let live situation. This is not a my way or the highway situation. This is a situation of some really bad stuff happening that is doing harm to animals, and the trouble being caused is likely to spread outside of his walls in one way or another eventually, as well as being terrible for the animals inside his walls right now.

Seems like we are just different people. What can you do when Evansky is not changing his mind? Yelling across the internet? Use mod privileges? Ban? Change is encouraged, not forced. It's great to be knowledgeable about certain topics, but not utilizing the right way to educate people defeats the purpose. Is his way wrong? Maybe, but instead of going HEY! YOU ARE WRONG, I'M RIGHT, YOU LISTEN HERE! Try encouraging species separation first, once that happens advice different things.

Must be frustrating when you know the answers but people won't listen. Maybe a different approach. If your goal is just to prove you are right then keep doing what you are doing, but if the goal is to inspire change, I might change my tact.

 

[Tom]

Seems like we are just different people. What can you do when Evansky is not changing his mind? Yelling across the internet? Use mod privileges? Ban? Change is encouraged, not forced. It's great to be knowledgeable about certain topics, but not utilizing the right way to educate people defeats the purpose. Is his way wrong? Maybe, but instead of going HEY! YOU ARE WRONG, I'M RIGHT, YOU LISTEN HERE! Try encouraging species separation first, once that happens advice different things.

Must be frustrating when you know the answers but people won't listen. Maybe a different approach. If your goal is just to prove you are right then keep doing what you are doing, but if the goal is to inspire change, I might change my tact.

I don't know what other tact there is than to educate the person about the harm of what they are doing. I understand skepticism of what is said on the internet, but a person's mind is either open or it isn't. What magic words am I, or anyone else, supposed to utter that will make a closed minded person stop doing the harm that they are unknowingly doing?

Going back to my analogy, all I have to power to do is say, "Hey! You are going the wrong way. You are going to crash." I don't know how much more plainly I can put it. I don't think wording it in a more flowery, warm and fuzzy way is going to change the fact that Evansky just gave us all the finger and hit the gas. Do you? What are the magic words that will make a reluctant skeptical person stop doing harm to their animals when they really don't think that they are? If you know the secret to solving this problem, please share it. I genuinely want to learn.

 

[Rynan]

I don't know what other tact there is than to educate the person about the harm of what they are doing. I understand skepticism of what is said on the internet, but a person's mind is either open or it isn't. What magic words am I, or anyone else, supposed to utter that will make a closed minded person stop doing the harm that they are unknowingly doing?

Going back to my analogy, all I have to power to do is say, "Hey! You are going the wrong way. You are going to crash." I don't know how much more plainly I can put it. I don't think wording it in a more flowery, warm and fuzzy way is going to change the fact that Evansky just gave us all the finger and hit the gas. Do you? What are the magic words that will make a reluctant skeptical person stop doing harm to their animals when they really don't think that they are? If you know the secret to solving this problem, please share it. I genuinely want to learn.

If I had the magic words, I'd be able to change your mind right here right now without getting a lump term such as "you and Evansky" are problems. All I can say is in the years I've been on here, I've read and promoted your care guide because they are the best I've seen. But reading your comments and chatting with you feels like getting pulled over by an officer with a resting hand on his pistol.

Picture this, you read the best research paper and really admire the author/ professor. You try your best to mimic everything they do in the field because it appears to be the best way, you cite their work, defend their stance. Then you see how they interact with other novice and new students and you think to yourself, "That professor is kind of a jerk."

 

[jaizei]

Mixing species

You are taking a HUGE risk if you have a lot of tortoises coming and going in your collection. Especially in Florida. Quarantine based on an observation period is basically worthless for two reasons.
1. Some serious diseases like TINC can go undetected in an animal for at least a year or more. There are redfoots in Florida that have broken with the disease 14 months after changing hands.
2. Before the animal visibly breaks with the disease it has likely already begun shedding. If the animals are quarantined outdoors on the same property this is can be a big problem. Unless you are extremely diligent with biosecurity you will likely spread it yourself between enclosures. Other vectors include birds sharing the water bowls, animals walking through the enclosure, and likely even insects coming into contact with the tortoises themselves or their poop. Once on your in your collection and on your property there is often no known method to eliminate them from the environment, in the case of TINC it has been dramatically suggested to burn the entire property and/or remove 12-18" of soil.

You need to be very careful where you get your animals from. Dealing with a disease outbreak in a large collection of tortoises is a nightmare.

To be clear, is this applicable to all species including adding animals of the same species to a collection or only where mixing species is concerned?

Because imo the way this forum warns against mixing species as though its five alarm with only a nod to 'quarantining' when introducing new animals of the same species is a huge mistake. Also, aligning with your point 2, theres little thought placed on whether different species on the same property can be effectively kept isolated from each other outdoors. Boiling it down to don't mix species overly simplifies it almost to the point of uselessness.

 

[Tom]

If I had the magic words, I'd be able to change your mind right here right now without getting a lump term such as "you and Evansky" are problems. All I can say is in the years I've been on here, I've read and promoted your care guide because they are the best I've seen. But reading your comments and chatting with you feels like getting pulled over by an officer with a resting hand on his pistol.

Picture this, you read the best research paper and really admire the author/ professor. You try your best to mimic everything they do in the field because it appears to be the best way, you cite their work, defend their stance. Then you see how they interact with other novice and new students and you think to yourself, "That professor is kind of a jerk."

I'm just using plain English man. I can't help what imagery you invent in your own mind about police officers and guns.

There is a dude doing bad stuff to tortoises. Several of us are trying to educate the guy and get him to stop. The guy clearly thinks we are idiots and has no interest whatsoever in either learning or stopping. Then you come along and try to explain that everyone just does things a little differently and that should be okay. Now you are butt hurt because you and the guy doing the bad stuff both don't seem to understand how bad the bad stuff is. I don't think you realize the damage that is done by the things he is doing. Whole collections die and the diseases get spread around the entire tortoise community. Sand impaction kills many tortoises annually. This isn't some maniacal insanity where everything must be done my way by everyone all the time.

I'm trying to help tortoises. Sometimes the help is accepted and sometimes it isn't. The reason I persist when people like Evansky clearly don't care what I have to say and are going to carry on harming their animals anyway, is because thousands of people read these threads. Some percentage of them will read these words and unlike the OP, they will realize that they should make some changes and do better for their animals. If all of the makes me a jerk, I am fine with being a jerk as long as it is helping people take better care of their tortoises. I may not be helping the OP, but I can guarantee my words are helping others.

Your perception on this subject is amusing to me. The guy harming tortoises is to be accepted and tolerated, but the guy trying to stop harm from coming to tortoises is now a jerk.

Some people are unmoved by the nice version. Some people are upset by the stern version. No version works for every person every time. The version here that you are not liking is the best version possible for some percentage of tortoise keepers out there, and they frequently tell me so. The beauty of this forum is that a person in need of help can get MANY versions from many people and hopefully find a version that suits them. That is why it is good for many people to chime in. We have several members that take the time to word things very nicely and diplomatically. We have several members like me that are more blunt and matter-of-fact about it. Still other members are more harsh and less tolerant than me. I am failing to convince Evansky to change his ways. Please give it a shot yourself and lead by example. All I want is dangerous husbandry practices to end. I don't care how it ends or who gets the credit for ending it.

 

[Rynan]

I'm just using plain English man. I can't help what imagery you invent in your own mind about police officers and guns.

There is a dude doing bad stuff to tortoises. Several of us are trying to educate the guy and get him to stop. The guy clearly thinks we are idiots and has no interest whatsoever in either learning or stopping. Then you come along and try to explain that everyone just does things a little differently and that should be okay. Now you are butt hurt because you and the guy doing the bad stuff both don't seem to understand how bad the bad stuff is. I don't think you realize the damage that is done by the things he is doing. Whole collections die and the diseases get spread around the entire tortoise community. Sand impaction kills many tortoises annually. This isn't some maniacal insanity where everything must be done my way by everyone all the time.

I'm trying to help tortoises. Sometimes the help is accepted and sometimes it isn't. The reason I persist when people like Evansky clearly don't care what I have to say and are going to carry on harming their animals anyway, is because thousands of people read these threads. Some percentage of them will read these words and unlike the OP, they will realize that they should make some changes and do better for their animals. If all of the makes me a jerk, I am fine with being a jerk as long as it is helping people take better care of their tortoises. I may not be helping the OP, but I can guarantee my words are helping others.

Your perception on this subject is amusing to me. The guy harming tortoises is to be accepted and tolerated, but the guy trying to stop harm from coming to tortoises is now a jerk.

Some people are unmoved by the nice version. Some people are upset by the stern version. No version works for every person every time. The version here that you are not liking is the best version possible for some percentage of tortoise keepers out there, and they frequently tell me so. The beauty of this forum is that a person in need of help can get MANY versions from many people and hopefully find a version that suits them. That is why it is good for many people to chime in. We have several members that take the time to word things very nicely and diplomatically. We have several members like me that are more blunt and matter-of-fact about it. Still other members are more harsh and less tolerant than me. I am failing to convince Evansky to change his ways. Please give it a shot yourself and lead by example. All I want is dangerous husbandry practices to end. I don't care how it ends or who gets the credit for ending it.

There it is, see how defensive it got? Tact is needed for sure. My point is it's a good act to get all the right information out there. But people and situations are case by case. Clearly ganging up on him isn't changing his mind atm but encourgaining small changes might open up to bigger changes. But rather than staying on the issue now it's about character and apparently I'm now on the outside because I'm not siding with anyone.
My point being if you get them to be defensive then they are less willing to listen to the message. I've only used the word "jerk" and you wrote me an essay. Imaging if I used the word "****" or "dickish".

Pretty sure I wasn't writing in spanish either. -troll line, another example on how words would affect the conversation.

Additionally, I think your time is very valuable and I think you are in the right. I'm just suggesting a different approach and praising Evan's intentions, I'm not saying what he's doing is right but I can see he's trying. After all, he tried to find a good place for information by landing on this forumn, he just got defensive. He'll probably see the benefit. Information takes time to digest.

Please don't write me another essay...