Baytril

[johanna]

I posted a few days ago about my pancake tortoise having a prolapsed rectum. The vet wanted to be proactive and prescribed baytril in case there is an underlying bacterial infection which caused it. I want everyone to know that the baytril causes severe nausea. He got it on monday and threw up 4 times. He would just hang his head with his mouth open and you could just feel his nausea. Now today I gave another injection and the same thing. He looks like I do when I'm feeling super nauseous. I know what hes going through. I'm going back to get a different type of antibiotic.
Has anyone else had this problem?

 

[Laura]

injections are very painful, and baytril stings..
can you give it orally?
if it is causing nausea tho.. it may not help..

 

[kimber_lee_314]

I haven't heard nausea specifically, but I know that it can cause them to stop eating ... which might be because their tummy hurts. You might try to switch to cipro - it seems to cause less gut issues. It's not always as effective as Baytril though.

 

[johanna]

I wasnt too keen on the injection, but if hes throwing up oral meds wouldnt work. I was also suggested to try Amikacin. I actually didnt want to do antibiotics at all since I'm against using them unless completely necessary for life (for myself as well as my pets), but since his prolapse is better I think it may be helping. I'm going to get something different tomorrow.

 

[dmmj]

This is my personal view point, but I don't trust medical processionals either human or vets who want to prescribe antibiotics as a precaution.

 

[matt41gb]

Yes, try something else (like Amikacin.) I really think your tortoise is allergic to Baytril. Does your vet know that this is happening? Keep us updated.

-Matt

 

[EricIvins]

My question would be why is your Vet using such an outdated Anti-Biotic for one - and two, why is your Vet using an Anti-biotic to be "proactive"?

If it's something that needs an Anti-Biotic, it should be determined what it is and treated strategically......

 

[Yvonne G]

Baytril has been around for a long time, but its not outdated. Its still the antibiotic of choice for respiratory infections, and still the best one for that purpose.

Having said that, some types of tortoise can't take Baytril, leopards being one. Maybe pancakes are another.

If your pancake didn't show other signs besides the prolapse, then I would say that Baytril wasn't necessary. Like Eric said, there are other antibiotics that would be better for no RI symptoms than Baytril.

 

[johanna]

He believed there was an underlying cause for the prolapse. He didnt find any parasites but thought there was a bacterial infection within him. I do not agree with the use of antibiotics in general, but I want him to get better and really didnt know what to do at that point.
On a side note... He wants me to deworm him using Nemex. He didnt find any worms, but says that it is very common for tortoises to have worms and it is a good idea to deworm them. should I do this??
Thanks

 

[John]

I had some problems as far as reactions too the baytril,but vomiting was not one yvonne is right some torts can't handle baytril,your vet should have discussed this and offered an alternative,as mine did

 

[Yvonne G]

Panacur is usually what we use for de-worming tortoises. That's fenbendazole. I've not heard of Nemex for tortoises.

 

[johanna]

He said something about tortoises having a reaction to the normal dewormer so he's using a different one. I've usually used panacur for other animals. I haven't given it to him yet. Still trying to straighten out the antibiotic situation.

 

[Seeshell]

I have only ever used baytrill for rns - a very young tort arrived with me with it. Baytrill was very effective for that and with absolutely no side effets. Applications were oral. I understand it isn't ordinarily used for e.g. leopards and some other tropical species. I, personally, wouldn't deworn if testing has shown negative. I hope your tort gets better soon.

 

[Maggie Cummings]

I'd say your tort is allergic to Baytril and I certainly wouldn't use it anymore. Panacur is what we use for deworming.

 

[exoticsdr]

Pharmacology lesson: taken from my post to "antibiotic names"

Antibiotics from different classes, i.e penicillins, aminoglycocides, cephalosporins, all work differently as to how they attack and kill a
given bacteria

Baytril or enrofloxacin- great spectrum of activity but are not effective in anaerobic infections, but it is painful on injection, can cause skin discoloration and sloughing if not given in the muscle, can also cause stomach upset and cartilage abnormalities in young animals if used too often. (Generally a great respiratory antibiotic and is widely available, easy to dose and that is why most vets use it...comfort level, but overused and bugs are becoming resistant to it).

Amikacin- great for aerobic gram-negative infections, not so good for aerobic gram-positive bacteria, no anaerobic activity....so also a good respiratory agent if the bug is of the gram-negative variety. However, is EXTREMELY hard on the kidneys and can cause kidney failure in animals that already have a pre-existing kidney problem and in young animals---MUST BE WELL HYDRATED AT ALL TIMES. Also has been know to cause hearing loss.

Naxcel or ceftiofur- great spectrum of activity of both gram-neg and positive aerobes and anaerobes and used in respiratory disease very often. Pain on injection and must be in the muscle, also has been know to cause kidney problems in healthy animals.

Now, if there is a problem in the intestine that could possibly be causing the prolapse and it can be fought with antibiotics, first we have to choose the right antibiotic:

Baytril----NO GOOD-- has little anaerobic activity and since we are dealing with the intestine and a very strongly anaerobic environment not my first choice...great for areas with bugs that need and thrive in oxygen rich environments, like respiratory infections

Amikacin--ABSOLUTELY NOT!!!-- NO ANAEROBIC activity at all...now if you have a respiratory problem caused from a dusty enclosure and lots of dried poop being flung around, I'm all for it but NOT in this case.

Ceftiofur--would be a good choice but has it's problems.

As for the dewormer: Nemex is pyrantel palmoate, also known as Strongid and can be used in deworming most if not all species of reptiles, Panacur or fenbendazole is the first one that we grab though. I wonder why that is? Well, it kind of goes back to the age-old Baytril controversy, it's what we are comfortable with (I prefer panacur, BTW). We read so many times on this forum, most vets, have little to no practical experience with tortoises and only know what they have read in the literature (this was of course worded much nicer than most of the posts that I read). Want to know how many calls I field on a weekly basis for exotic animal owners who can't find a vet to even agree to see them for a brief exam or consult?

Now from my Soapbox:

As for "proactive" treatment. Let's ponder a question (forgive me Squamata). What if? You go to the vet and they tell you that they suspect either this or that and give you an explanation of the treatment (let's also say that it is the correct drug for whatever suspected disease process a (presumptive diagnosis)). They then take samples for a culture and sensitivity to confirm the "presumptive diagnosis" because you agree to it because the diagnostics fit into your finances. They send you home without an antibiotic and results will normally be ready in 5-6 days, but we are coming up on a holiday so you can probably expect a 10-11 day wait....in the mean time, your pet dies, when the results come in, they show that the presumptive diagnosis is now a definitive diagnosis and that the antibiotic the vet would have used was correct. Now, is "prophylactic" antibiotic treatment right or wrong? What if you can't afford the diagnostics? Do you just go home without anything because a definitive diagnosis has not been made or do you go with an antibiotic based on your vet's experience and medical knowledge? What if there are two drugs that will most likely work? one costs 10 times the price of the baytril, since you can't afford the diagnostics, which drug are you going to choose? All fair questions, I think.

Hate to carry on about this again and again, but I'm afraid the whole "antibiotic" and "vet care" argument is becoming over simplified and too many are jumping on the bandwagon to "do this because I did it once and it worked for me" or "my vet did this and I don't think he should have" . I think that it is rare that the whole story is told from either the veterinary or the client/pet perspective.

...stepping down now.

 

[Yvonne G]

Please don't ever leave the forum, Dr. Todd. We are so lucky to have you!

 

[johanna]

Im stopping the Baytril. My vet said not to use the Amikacin. He gave me Cefazolin. Anyone used it or know anything about it? I havent given any yet.

 

[exoticsdr]

Cefazolin is a first generation Cephalosporin and is very effective against anaerobic bugs. Though I've never used it in tortoises personally, there are dosages listed for reptiles and it would be a much better choice in this case.

 

[John]

Hey doc why do you say forgive me squamata i am not attacking you.you are not my vet,or even in my range.i have no problem with you or any advice you have given here.also i state in my posts that the treatment you describe is what i went through with my tort.the experience i have had go alot deeper than i write on here.i don't post everything i do or know,only what seems too be common practice,and if i do post something i have done it is a statement of what i have done and has or has not worked for me.it is not meant as advice i am not telling people what too do.i grew up in a time when reptile vets were scarce or just too expensive books were cheaper.i realize things have changed.under my personal circumstances i had too be kinda a shade tree vet,i do not recommend this but if you read my signature you will understand how i stand on just about everything

 

[exoticsdr]

Hey doc why do you say forgive me squamata i am not attacking you.you are not my vet,or even in my range.i have no problem with you or any advice you have given here.also i state in my posts that the treatment you describe is what i went through with my tort.the experience i have had go alot deeper than i write on here.i don't post everything i do or know,only what seems too be common practice,and if i do post something i have done it is a statement of what i have done and has or has not worked for me.it is not meant as advice i am not telling people what too do.i grew up in a time when reptile vets were scarce or just too expensive books were cheaper.i realize things have changed.under my personal circumstances i had too be kinda a shade tree vet,i do not recommend this but if you read my signature you will understand how i stand on just about everything

No, my friend, you misunderstand..was not attacking or disparaging you in any way....was apologizing to you (in a joking manner) for reposting information that I had just posted a day or two before this one and I knew you would read this post...sorry, was just "punching" you in the arm like friends tend to do....if I overstepped my bounds thinking that, I'm very sorry and will refrain from similar attempts at humor with you.
Happy New Year to you and yours.

doc