Benefits of feeding protein

[HarleyK]

I have read some previous threads on feeding rfs cat food, etc. but what are the benefits of feeding them animal protein 1x/week?

Has anyone noticed a faster growth rate or bulk muscle growth? My rf is 5 months old at about 3" and I am thinking about offering it cat food.

 

[terryo]

I started feeding mine the soaked cat food when he was 7 months old. Before that I didn't give him any protein. Now that he's outside, he finds worms and other bugs, and I just give him some boiled chicken once every few weeks. I haven't noticed any difference in his growth since he has been getting it, but since I don't feed it that often I couln't say.

 

[Madkins007]

OVER-feeding protein can cause too-rapid growth, stress or damage organs, etc. but that is not the point here.

Tortoises from nutrient-poor habitats like some savannahs and forests*, eat a wider array of foods than those from places where the food has more nutrition but may be scarcer. This helps ensure they get a wide range of nutrients.

The 'meats' they eat in the wild are mostly insect and invertebrates, so are not really a source of vitamin D as is often claimed- that is mostly from oily fish, organ meat, mushrooms, and some red meats.

Captive Red-foots on a good diet do not seem to NEED meat, but they certainly enjoy it and can digest it, so why no offer some? How often is up to you- weekly or more, monthly or less- as long as it only forms a small part of the overall diet that is not a real issue.

As for dog or cat food- kibble or moist versions- the main benefits I see of it are that they are cheap, store easily, pre-vitaminized, and easy to use. The drawbacks are the fillers, ash, that it is a processed food, and possible organ damage if over-used. All manageable as long as you use a good brand, low-fat or 'easily digested' version, and don't over-do it.

There are other great options, like live worms, invertebrates, bugs, larvae and caterpillars; cooked chicken or poultry, organ meat, baby mice or rats, etc. By the way, very young Red-foots seem to enjoy things like worms and an occasional worm is not going to hurt them.



* I know forests do not LOOK 'low in nutrients', but they really are. Tortoises and forest turtles are some of the few vertebrates that can live on the forest floor surrounded by so much lush growth with so little nutrition. Most of the nutrients are up on top with the fruits and nuts, and monkeys, squirrels, and birds which form the bulk of forest vertebrate life. Lush grasslands are almost as bad since most of the food is locked in tough-to-digest plants that usually require specialized digestive processes, including chewing teeth, to use.

 

[terryo]

Great post Mark. Very informative.

 

[Redfoot NERD]

OVER-feeding protein can cause too-rapid growth, stress or damage organs, etc. but that is not the point here.

Tortoises from nutrient-poor habitats like some savannahs and forests*, eat a wider array of foods than those from places where the food has more nutrition but may be scarcer. This helps ensure they get a wide range of nutrients.

The 'meats' they eat in the wild are mostly insect and invertebrates, so are not really a source of vitamin D as is often claimed- that is mostly from oily fish, organ meat, mushrooms, and some red meats.

Captive Red-foots on a good diet do not seem to NEED meat, but they certainly enjoy it and can digest it, so why no offer some? How often is up to you- weekly or more, monthly or less- as long as it only forms a small part of the overall diet that is not a real issue.

As for dog or cat food- kibble or moist versions- the main benefits I see of it are that they are cheap, store easily, pre-vitaminized, and easy to use. The drawbacks are the fillers, ash, that it is a processed food, and possible organ damage if over-used. All manageable as long as you use a good brand, low-fat or 'easily digested' version, and don't over-do it.

There are other great options, like live worms, invertebrates, bugs, larvae and caterpillars; cooked chicken or poultry, organ meat, baby mice or rats, etc. By the way, very young Red-foots seem to enjoy things like worms and an occasional worm is not going to hurt them.



* I know forests do not LOOK 'low in nutrients', but they really are. Tortoises and forest turtles are some of the few vertebrates that can live on the forest floor surrounded by so much lush growth with so little nutrition. Most of the nutrients are up on top with the fruits and nuts, and monkeys, squirrels, and birds which form the bulk of forest vertebrate life. Lush grasslands are almost as bad since most of the food is locked in tough-to-digest plants that usually require specialized digestive processes, including chewing teeth, to use.

Where did you read this Mark? Why can we never get any sources to read for ourselves so we can come up with our own conclusions?

I wonder if these "tree-dwellers" ever drop 'good stuff' onto the ground where the 'ground-feeders' can benefit from.. spose? Seems like I've seen that very thing occur on a Nat. Geo. TV show! And in my front yard where the 'ground-feeders' enjoy the suet that is dropped by the wood-peckers/birds that feed on it above.

So it's all balanced out in nature.. wherever.

Redfoot tortoises eat protein because nature dictates it.

Re-hydrated dry cat food has worked for me personally for over 5 years.

Terry K

 

[terryo]

Where did you read this Mark? Why can we never get any sources to read for ourselves so we can come up with our own conclusions?

What is the difference if we read what Mark has to say, or what any other sauce has to say, like other web sites, or other breeders care sheets, or books that have been written...etc. There are many sources out there. Also there are many care sheets written for Redfoots. Just goggle Redfoot diet or care. We can still read for ourselves and come up with our own conclusions can't we? It is great that cat food has worked for you for 5 years, but wouldn't it be nice to offer them a variety of foods? Maybe it is different when you have so many that you can't...or don't want to...give them each individual attention, but most keepers are not breeders and just have one or two, and tend to treat them more like pets. I have many box turtles, and treat each one as an individual. Every day they are offered a variety of foods. Some don't like certain foods, so they will get something different. Why are you so against variety? Just trying to understand where you are coming from Nerd. I think that Mark has provided some very good information. Nothing wrong with that.

 

[Madkins007]

Where did you read this Mark? Why can we never get any sources to read for ourselves so we can come up with our own conclusions?

I can document my sources if there is a valid question and I have every other time. Your suggestion that 'we never get any sources' is inaccurate and can be read as mean-spirited. Just pointing that out since you have said you have trouble with that sort of thing in the past.

What part do you really doubt? I'll be happy to document it.

I wonder if these "tree-dwellers" ever drop 'good stuff' onto the ground where the 'ground-feeders' can benefit from.. spose? Seems like I've seen that very thing occur on a Nat. Geo. TV show! And in my front yard where the 'ground-feeders' enjoy the suet that is dropped by the wood-peckers/birds that feed on it above.

One of the episodes of 'Planet Earth' had a great bit on figs. First, the tree ripens (and in the rain forest, the next nearest ripening fig tree is probably miles away). First, it is invaded by birds, then monkeys, then marmosets and other fruit eaters. Soon, entire huge noisy colonies of animals are attacking the tree.

Some fruit hits the ground, where it is attacked by tortoises, as well as ground-dwelling birds, monkeys, marmosets. rodents, and dozens of other aggressive, fast-moving, hungry species. How does a tortoise compete against all of this? By eating and needing less than those hot-blooded species and being happy with 'leftovers'.

You gotta pay more attention to your nature specials.

(snip)
Re-hydrated dry cat food has worked for me personally for over 5 years.

Terry K

5 years is not even a full reproductive cycle for a tortoise. That really does not show or prove much, does it? I have wondered lately why you use it- what research or who's advice you are following, and why you believe it so right that you recommend it to everyone, when so many other sources disagree with you so firmly?

It is, after all, all about the tortoises, right?

 

[cdmay]

Where did you read this Mark? Why can we never get any sources to read for ourselves so we can come up with our own conclusions?

Mark shouldn't have to provide a bibliography for his posts. The information is out there and easily obtainable these days.
Most of what Mark has posted is so well documented that it has become common knowledge among keepers who bother to keep up with what has been published. His statements regarding the low nutrient/mineral capacity of tropical forests in South America is so well studied that virtually every TV documentary even comments on it. That is why the slash and burn clearing practices that have gone on down there (and elsewhere) leave the land good for only a season or two of farming before it is drained of value.
There are those who refuse to read anything 'new' (even if it is was published over 20 years ago) regarding red foots and thus their comments tend to sound like gripes when somebody like Mark, who has actually educated himself on the subject, makes a point. Instead of taking the attitude of, "Wow, I've never heard of that before. That's interesting!" There will always be some who steadfastly claim, "I've never seen that in my back yard so it surely never happens-- anywhere!"

 

[allegraf]

I saw that show about the figs! It was interesting. I don't think anyone has ever had to provide their sources. I have never fed my torts cat or dog food since they do not appear to need the "meat" protein. Mazuri is as daring as I will go in terms of protein. I always enjoy reading Mark's posts, very informative!

 

[Redfoot NERD]

I didn't say I doubted it.. I simply asked for a source to read also?

What are all of these other comments/accusations about? Or have to do with my answer to the OP?

I'm always asking for references so I can read it myself.. so I can see for myself what the 'community' thinks and/or has discovered. How is that being close-minded, doubting or not willing to learn or stay up to date?

Why can I not get those references? True, I'm not interested in being [ known as ] a reseacher - I'm interested in the research!

Terry K

 

[cdmay]

I didn't say I doubted it.. I simply asked for a source to read also?

What are all of these other comments/accusations about? Or have to do with my answer to the OP?

I'm always asking for references so I can read it myself.. so I can see for myself what the 'community' thinks and/or has discovered. How is that being close-minded, doubting or not willing to learn or stay up to date?

Why can I not get those references? True, I'm not interested in being [ known as ] a reseacher - I'm interested in the research!

Terry K

Oh, so once again this is yet another example of you just being misunderstood?
I am detecting the usual pattern here.

 

[Redfoot NERD]

I didn't say I doubted it.. I simply asked for a source to read also?

What are all of these other comments/accusations about? Or have to do with my answer to the OP?

I'm always asking for references so I can read it myself.. so I can see for myself what the 'community' thinks and/or has discovered. How is that being close-minded, doubting or not willing to learn or stay up to date?

Why can I not get those references? True, I'm not interested in being [ known as ] a reseacher - I'm interested in the research!

Terry K

Oh, so once again this is yet another example of you just being misunderstood?
I am detecting the usual pattern here.

Carl only you can determine who's being misunderstood or misunderstanding.. that's your call. I am asking for the article to read that Mark is referencing.. how can that be doubting or be threatening in any way? I asked a few Q?'s.. and instead of answers Mark made comments and questioned why I gave the answer that I did to the original poster. I wasn't trying to be understood or feared being misunderstood.. I just answered the Q? But to answer your Q? - Andy Highfield suggested catfood.

Again.. I'm always asking for references so I can read it myself.. so I can see for myself what the 'community' thinks and/or has discovered. How is that being close-minded, doubting or not willing to learn or stay up to date? Answer please?

If you see a pattern it's asking - " Is this info legitimate or taken out of context or shear speculation.?" What's the source?

Am I not allowed to ask Q?'s here? Or get an answer when I do?

Terry K

 

[Candy]

Where did you read this Mark? Why can we never get any sources to read for ourselves so we can come up with our own conclusions?

What is the difference if we read what Mark has to say, or what any other sauce has to say, like other web sites, or other breeders care sheets, or books that have been written...etc. There are many sources out there. Also there are many care sheets written for Redfoots. Just goggle Redfoot diet or care. We can still read for ourselves and come up with our own conclusions can't we? It is great that cat food has worked for you for 5 years, but wouldn't it be nice to offer them a variety of foods? Maybe it is different when you have so many that you can't...or don't want to...give them each individual attention, but most keepers are not breeders and just have one or two, and tend to treat them more like pets. I have many box turtles, and treat each one as an individual. Every day they are offered a variety of foods. Some don't like certain foods, so they will get something different. Why are you so against variety? Just trying to understand where you are coming from Nerd. I think that Mark has provided some very good information. Nothing wrong with that.

I'm with you Terry. I give a variety and if they eat it then they eat it and if they don't then I throw it away and try again later. Dale I find to be a very picky eater (spoiled is more like it). Ruby and Eddie eat almost anything that I give to them. I also always love Mark's information.

 

[ekm5015]

Although it was a little demanding, I understand where Redfoot Nerd was coming from. He was simply asking for a link to the information being provided so he could interperet it how he saw it. Two people could come up with very different conclusions after reading something.

 

[cdmay]

Carl only you can determine who's being misunderstood or misunderstanding.. that's your call. I am asking for the article to read that Mark is referencing.. how can that be doubting or be threatening in any way? I asked a few Q?'s.. and instead of answers Mark made comments and questioned why I gave the answer that I did to the original poster. I wasn't trying to be understood or feared being misunderstood.. I just answered the Q? But to answer your Q? - Andy Highfield suggested catfood.

Again.. I'm always asking for references so I can read it myself.. so I can see for myself what the 'community' thinks and/or has discovered. How is that being close-minded, doubting or not willing to learn or stay up to date? Answer please?

If you see a pattern it's asking - " Is this info legitimate or taken out of context or shear speculation.?" What's the source?

Am I not allowed to ask Q?'s here? Or get an answer when I do?

Terry K[/quote]

Nerd, of course you have every right to question anything that any other person posts. You also have the right to want to see their sources. But in your case, you have established a very clear pattern of condescension over a peroid of time where you have made it abundantly clear that you have very little regard for other's research. If a person were to read the single instance above where you questioned Madkins007 about his sources, they would never get the fact that you have nitpicked his posts numerous times in the past. Long term visitors to this forum understand what your views are about field studies, new books or what newer keepers have to say about tortoises. People can read between the lines and your sarcasm has been evident to everyone. Once again, you have every right to that. But don't insult us by pretending that you just want to learn something after you've been called out for belittling someone's efforts.
Finally, I find it rather funny that now you are suddenly interested in research about red foots. I had offered to send you links to some excellent papers or otherwise get you some really interesting stuff in the past but you said you had no interest in any "new redfoot theologies" as you put it.

 

[Madkins007]

Terry K/NERD- perhaps in the future, instead of saying something like:

Where did you read this Mark? Why can we never get any sources to read for ourselves so we can come up with our own conclusions?

which sounds hostile and accusatory (and is inaccurate as I often post sources), you might to try something like "interesting- where can I find that information?"

The figs bit was in Episode 8 "Jungles" of the 2006 series 'Planet Earth'. Information about the scarcity of nutrients in the soil can be found in any book about the rain forest, or you can start with Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rain_forest.

On a similar note, I find your stand on cat food interesting. Where can I find your sources of information?

 

[Redfoot NERD]

Carl is there not a difference between asking a Q?? and questioning?

TerryO/Candy - I understood this thread to be about protein.. not about variety(?).

Mark I find this very curious: "I know forests do not LOOK 'low in nutrients', but they really are. Tortoises and forest turtles are some of the few vertebrates that can live on the forest floor surrounded by so much lush growth with so little nutrition." - so I was asking for the source of that.

If what or how I say or ask about anything seems rude or sarcastic.. is that my fault that that's the way anyone views the written word? I'm only here to say what I've learned from personal experience.. and just like everyone else it came from the advice of someone else almost entirely.. for several ( 5 - 10+ ) years. PLUS it takes too long for me to type a long response or reply.

So I don't like to mix words.. seldom 'sugar-coat' anything.. and am almost never interested in third-party info unless there is a link to reference it. View this as you will......

[ see.... Mark replied before I was thru typing this ]

NERD

---

Terry K/NERD- perhaps in the future, instead of saying something like:

Where did you read this Mark? Why can we never get any sources to read for ourselves so we can come up with our own conclusions?

which sounds hostile and accusatory (and is inaccurate as I often post sources), you might to try something like "interesting- where can I find that information?"

The figs bit was in Episode 8 "Jungles" of the 2006 series 'Planet Earth'. Information about the scarcity of nutrients in the soil can be found in any book about the rain forest, or you can start with Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rain_forest.

On a similar note, I find your stand on cat food interesting. Where can I find your sources of information?

http://www.tortoisetrust.org/articles/feeding_redfoots.html

And when I first acquired my alpha 'Northern' redfoot female she could not stand or take 2 steps without falling! The former owner of 5 years reportedly did not feed her right! She "Wobbled" when she stood still. So I went to "Herpforum?" [ Kingsnake ] and asked what to do. Carl.. as I recall/maybe.. and others suggested various forms of animal protein and Calcium Carbonate powder to 'cure' the problem.

I tried to "search" to find the thread but couldn't go back far enough. The thread was titled "Wobbly" in late July '04.

NERD

 

[HarleyK]

i checked out some labels on cat food and there is omega 3's and 2's in it so that right there is a huge advantage in feeding your tort cat food.. which i'll start feeding my rf in a few months.

 

[Madkins007]

If what or how I say or ask about anything seems rude or sarcastic.. is that my fault that that's the way anyone views the written word?

Yes it is your fault. The English language is rich in nuance- there are ways to phrase things so they mean exactly what you want them to mean. It happens often enough that I have to believe you said what you meant and meant what you said.

If typing is that difficult for you, look into a voice dictation system like Dragon Dictate so your written word can more accurately reflect what you claim you meant.

I apologize again to the others for going off the OP

Thank you for the link about the cat food, although I find it curious that you follow that part of Andy's advice and seem to hold so much of the rest of his stuff in such low esteem.

 

[terryo]

Nerd Was the wobbley tortoise Sunshine? Here's the thread.
http://forums.kingsnake.com/viewarch.php?id=511274,511274&key=2004