Best Substrate For a Hermanns?

[BennyandJackJack]

Hey All,

New here and I have my first tortoise, a little Hermann's (I believe an Eastern) - currently I am using ProRep Tortoise Life Mediterranean but it gets really dry really quick, I have read that Top Soil with play sand and coconut coir is good for helping keeping it a little more moist, but I am unsure about the play sand thing? or if the ProRep Tortoise Life Mediterranean is the best stuff but I am doing something wrong?

I have looked at other posts but they are all older and I wasn't sure if there was new material I need to know that I just can't locate? What does everyone else use? Is ProRep and Coconut Coir a good mix or should I be using top soil, sand and coconut coir or something else?

 

[Tom]

Hey All,

New here and I have my first tortoise, a little Hermann's (I believe an Eastern) - currently I am using ProRep Tortoise Life Mediterranean but it gets really dry really quick, I have read that Top Soil with play sand and coconut coir is good for helping keeping it a little more moist, but I am unsure about the play sand thing? or if the ProRep Tortoise Life Mediterranean is the best stuff but I am doing something wrong?

I have looked at other posts but they are all older and I wasn't sure if there was new material I need to know that I just can't locate? What does everyone else use? Is ProRep and Coconut Coir a good mix or should I be using top soil, sand and coconut coir or something else?

Hello and welcome. You will be so glad you found us! You are using the wrong stuff, reading the wrong stuff, and getting the wrong advice. Start here, and look for the temperate species care sheet at the bottom for the correct care info:

Info For New People. Please Read This First.

Hello and welcome to tortoiseforum.org! We are all glad you are here! There is no other forum like this anywhere. We have tens of thousands of members from all over the world ranging from kids with their first tortoise to people who have been breeding and keeping high end tortoises since the...

tortoiseforum.org

The quick answer to your question is: Coco coir for babies, and fine grade orchid bark for adults. Never sand, never soil. That ProRep stuff is a terrible substrate for a tortoise, and it is drying out too fast because you were told to use the wrong type of enclosure, and likely the wrong heat sources too.

 

[zolasmum]

Hey All,

New here and I have my first tortoise, a little Hermann's (I believe an Eastern) - currently I am using ProRep Tortoise Life Mediterranean but it gets really dry really quick, I have read that Top Soil with play sand and coconut coir is good for helping keeping it a little more moist, but I am unsure about the play sand thing? or if the ProRep Tortoise Life Mediterranean is the best stuff but I am doing something wrong?

I have looked at other posts but they are all older and I wasn't sure if there was new material I need to know that I just can't locate? What does everyone else use? Is ProRep and Coconut Coir a good mix or should I be using top soil, sand and coconut coir or something else?

Welcome - is that Barnsley in the UK ? Tom is one of the most knowledgeable people around, and the factsheets are a great resource - I just wish they had been around when we got our Hermann's 22 years ago ! He is now nearly 23, and is doing well, but we would have done a lot of things differently if we had known what we know now.
People on this forum are very kind and helpful, and want your little one to succeed, so ask anything you need to.
Best wishes from Angie (from Devon)

 

[BennyandJackJack]

Hello and welcome. You will be so glad you found us! You are using the wrong stuff, reading the wrong stuff, and getting the wrong advice. Start here, and look for the temperate species care sheet at the bottom for the correct care info:

Info For New People. Please Read This First.

Hello and welcome to tortoiseforum.org! We are all glad you are here! There is no other forum like this anywhere. We have tens of thousands of members from all over the world ranging from kids with their first tortoise to people who have been breeding and keeping high end tortoises since the...

tortoiseforum.org

The quick answer to your question is: Coco coir for babies, and fine grade orchid bark for adults. Never sand, never soil. That ProRep stuff is a terrible substrate for a tortoise, and it is drying out too fast because you were told to use the wrong type of enclosure, and likely the wrong heat sources too.

Thank you Tom, I will change the substrate to Coco Coir and I think I need to take a look at the lighting too as we were given and recommended a mercury Vapor one - when you say “flood” light on your other thread do you mean ones like these? Sylvania 15160-6 120-Volt 65-Watt Flood Lamp Bulbs (6 Pack) https://amzn.eu/d/jaFeZ2C - I ask as when I google for flood lights I get these or spotlight style.

Unfortunately we were advised on a tortoise table so have one of these rather than a viv and trying to replace immediately is not an option cos pennies so any advice on keeping him going on the table would be great, until we get a viv.

I am already a little worried about him, he has been with us a few weeks and isn’t marching around his table as much and seems to me like he is sleeping more, though my partner disagrees so any and all advice is appreciated.

 

[BennyandJackJack]

Welcome - is that Barnsley in the UK ? Tom is one of the most knowledgeable people around, and the factsheets are a great resource - I just wish they had been around when we got our Hermann's 22 years ago ! He is now nearly 23, and is doing well, but we would have done a lot of things differently if we had known what we know now.
People on this forum are very kind and helpful, and want your little one to succeed, so ask anything you need to.
Best wishes from Angie (from Devon)

Hi Angie,

It is Barnsley in the UK yes

I am doing my best but I feel like we have been given a lot of incorrect advice before finding here! I can only hope I can keep him going!

 

[zolasmum]

Hi Angie,

It is Barnsley in the UK yes

I am doing my best but I feel like we have been given a lot of incorrect advice before finding here! I can only hope I can keep him going!

I know how you feel, and it must be very frustrating to have to change things, as well as being expensive. The mercury vapour lights can affect their eyes, as well as causing pyramiding of the shell, and it could be that he doesn't like it , and that's why he is less active. I don't know enough to advise you about correct lights, though.
How old is he, how long have you had him, and what's his name?
Tortoises do get confused and stressed when they move to a new environment, and he may be just settling in. I
think you could get by with a table for a little while, especially if you can make a cover like a small plastic greenhouse to go over the whole thing, and help it keep warm and damp.
What do you feed him on?
Angie

 

[BennyandJackJack]

I know how you feel, and it must be very frustrating to have to change things, as well as being expensive. The mercury vapour lights can affect their eyes, as well as causing pyramiding of the shell, and it could be that he doesn't like it , and that's why he is less active. I don't know enough to advise you about correct lights, though.
How old is he, how long have you had him, and what's his name?
Tortoises do get confused and stressed when they move to a new environment, and he may be just settling in. I
think you could get by with a table for a little while, especially if you can make a cover like a small plastic greenhouse to go over the whole thing, and help it keep warm and damp.
What do you feed him on?
Angie

He is only about 7 months, we have had him for about a month - he is JackJack, I am Benny.

We were feeding him on grocery store greens, all the stuff recommended from other places but he has recently snubbed those and is enjoying viola flowers and dandelion greens instead.

 

[zolasmum]

He is only about 7 months, we have had him for about a month - he is JackJack, I am Benny.

We were feeding him on grocery store greens, all the stuff recommended from other places but he has recently snubbed those and is enjoying viola flowers and dandelion greens instead.

Dandelions are great - Zola loves them too.!!

 

[Tom]

Thank you Tom, I will change the substrate to Coco Coir and I think I need to take a look at the lighting too as we were given and recommended a mercury Vapor one - when you say “flood” light on your other thread do you mean ones like these? Sylvania 15160-6 120-Volt 65-Watt Flood Lamp Bulbs (6 Pack) https://amzn.eu/d/jaFeZ2C - I ask as when I google for flood lights I get these or spotlight style.

Unfortunately we were advised on a tortoise table so have one of these rather than a viv and trying to replace immediately is not an option cos pennies so any advice on keeping him going on the table would be great, until we get a viv.

I am already a little worried about him, he has been with us a few weeks and isn’t marching around his table as much and seems to me like he is sleeping more, though my partner disagrees so any and all advice is appreciated.

Yes, those are the correct bulbs. You may need higher or lower wattage depending on what your thermometer tells you.

Its a bummer finding out you got all the usual wrong info, but it would be more of a bummer if you hadn't found out.

 

[BennyandJackJack]

Yes, those are the correct bulbs. You may need higher or lower wattage depending on what your thermometer tells you.

Its a bummer finding out you got all the usual wrong info, but it would be more of a bummer if you hadn't found out.

Great thanks Tom, I will look at getting some of those bulbs instead and save up some pennies for a shiny viv for him and in the mean time try my hardest to give him the best humidity I can!

Hopefully he is just being a little lazy cos when were out in the sun yesterday he was really active!

 

[zolasmum]

How is JackJack today? Isn't it time we saw a photo of him ?
When I mentioned a plastic cover for his table, I was just thinking of a large sheet of plastic, draped over his table on some sort of a frame, above his lights and everything, like a tent. A shower curtain would do.
Here is a photo of Zola, taken a couple of days ago.
The split in his shell, we think is from him being trodden on when very small - and of course, it has grown longer over time - but we think he looks very handsome !
Angie

 

[BennyandJackJack]

Morning Angie, JackJack is ok it seems so far, he is still not the most active he could be and is being stubborn and only eating petals and not his greens. Maybe I am just an over worrier and he is trying to manipulate me for more flowers 😂

Waiting on come coco coir being delivered so I can change his substrate, expected it to be here tomorrow!

I think a tent like thing could be a pretty good idea to help with the humidity.

This is the little man, chilling out in the sun yesterday for a little and on my partners hand.

 

[Tom]

Morning Angie, JackJack is ok it seems so far, he is still not the most active he could be and is being stubborn and only eating petals and not his greens. Maybe I am just an over worrier and he is trying to manipulate me for more flowers 😂

Waiting on come coco coir being delivered so I can change his substrate, expected it to be here tomorrow!

I think a tent like thing could be a pretty good idea to help with the humidity.

This is the little man, chilling out in the sun yesterday for a little and on my partners hand.

View attachment 356280

View attachment 356281

Make an enclosure for outside time. Letting them roam loose will result in their loss. Maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, but eventually, you'll blink and the tort will have vanished into thin air. Its an awful feeling. I would not let a tortoise roam on fake grass. The likelihood of ingestion is high.

Can you see the ridges forming between the scutes where the new growth comes in? That is the start of pyramiding. Pyramiding is caused by growth in conditions that are too dry. Get that humidity up as soon as you can. Add a humid hide now. Dampen the substrate more, etc...

 

[BennyandJackJack]

Make an enclosure for outside time. Letting them roam loose will result in their loss. Maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, but eventually, you'll blink and the tort will have vanished into thin air. Its an awful feeling. I would not let a tortoise roam on fake grass. The likelihood of ingestion is high.

Can you see the ridges forming between the scutes where the new growth comes in? That is the start of pyramiding. Pyramiding is caused by growth in conditions that are too dry. Get that humidity up as soon as you can. Add a humid hide now. Dampen the substrate more, etc...

We plan to get/make him an enclosure for outside time, right now I am making sure I am staying on top of him while he is out.

Right OK, wanna avoid the pyramiding, the coco coir is coming in the morning along with the stuff to make a humid hide for him, I am dampening the substrate regularly in the meantime so hopefully from tomorrow the humidity should start to get better.

Could his sluggish-ness at the moment be due to low humidity? I do have a checkup with the vet booked but in general but couldn't get in til the 3rd of May

 

[zolasmum]

We plan to get/make him an enclosure for outside time, right now I am making sure I am staying on top of him while he is out.

Right OK, wanna avoid the pyramiding, the coco coir is coming in the morning along with the stuff to make a humid hide for him, I am dampening the substrate regularly in the meantime so hopefully from tomorrow the humidity should start to get better.

Could his sluggish-ness at the moment be due to low humidity? I do have a checkup with the vet booked but in general but couldn't get in til the 3rd of May

Wow ! you are really making progress. You don't know what sort of conditions JackJack was kept in originally ,so it will probably be a combination of things - even with Zola, we can't always work out why he is behaving in a particular way. I'm sure once he is settled in properly he will be fine. By the way, in case you are wondering, as long as you can give him good humidity, his growing shell will smooth out, as the ridges are only slight at the moment.
I would suggest that you weigh him regularly,as it is a useful indicator of his progress - also, if you lay him on a piece of paper and draw round the edges of his shell regularly, it's interesting how it changes over time. In a few months time, you will be amazed how little he was when you got him !
Oh, one other thing - try not to let him get too fussy about one particular food - give him more greens, and only a little bit of viola - maybe cut up small and mixed with his green stuff to make it all taste of it.
He looks a lovely little chap.
Angie

 

[Tom]

We plan to get/make him an enclosure for outside time, right now I am making sure I am staying on top of him while he is out.

Right OK, wanna avoid the pyramiding, the coco coir is coming in the morning along with the stuff to make a humid hide for him, I am dampening the substrate regularly in the meantime so hopefully from tomorrow the humidity should start to get better.

Could his sluggish-ness at the moment be due to low humidity? I do have a checkup with the vet booked but in general but couldn't get in til the 3rd of May

Overall health and vigor tends to improve when they are well hydrated and kept in a large closed chamber. Something about it just agrees with them.

Be careful going to a vet. Most of them know very little about tortoise care, and some of them do more harm than good. Don't allow any "vitamin injections", for example.

 

[BennyandJackJack]

Overall health and vigor tends to improve when they are well hydrated and kept in a large closed chamber. Something about it just agrees with them.

Be careful going to a vet. Most of them know very little about tortoise care, and some of them do more harm than good. Don't allow any "vitamin injections", for example.

Yeah I already about no vitamin injections, I think on another thread - we have a pretty good reptile vet up here but I am a pretty stubborn person and I won't let them do anything other than a general check up, like you would do with a dog

 

[zolasmum]

We take Zola to a vet 25 miles or so away, who has a couple of tortoises of his own, just to get his beak filed back, a couple of times a year - it's reassuring to know your vet enough to trust them if you have a serious problem - though Zola has always been fine so far.
Angie

 

[BennyandJackJack]

Got the new coco coir laid and the humidity is far better straight away even on a table! Jackjack is now taking a snooze in his new substrate while he basks!

Thank you both for your help Zolasmum and Tom! got some plants coming and some material to create a tent to help with the humidity!

 

[zolasmum]

Hello Benny - I was feeding Zola when I started thinking about JackJack's food -I know it can be difficult or impossible to get some of the exotic foods mentioned for Hermanns tortoises in this country. We give Zola a mixture of watercress, pea shoots, and rocket , from Morrisons,usually, also salad cress, dandelion leaves and flowers, plus whatever weeds from the garden are ok - but the thing he really loves is radicchio! Not the little bits in mixed salads, but I get a whole head of it, and take off a few leaves every day. It keeps really well in the fridge, for weeks. We have to go to a warehouse place 30 miles or more away, but I can stock up with 3 or 4 at a time,. If you haven't tried JackJack with it, you might like to have a go. This is him a few years ago with his radicchio !
Angie