Brazilian/"Cherryhead" NESTING

[allegraf]

"I've only seen one or two females that laid eggs at less than 10" SCL."

From our experience, ours started laying at a small size. It seems egg laying is more dependent on the size of the girls anal plastron opening versus the size of their shells. Last year five of our cherryheads laid eggs. We measured them today to see how big they really were. The two biggest are 10" and the smallest is 8.5" SCL. The two middle are 9 3/4" and 9 1/8". One of the 10" girls began laying eggs for us two years ago. The four big girls produce 4-5 eggs per clutch and the smallest 1-3.

We have one "sub-adult" girl that is 9 3/4" and her anal opening is too small for her to safely lay eggs. We also have a real sub adult at 6 1/4" whose anal opening is already starting to separate from the plastron. She is likely to mature at a very small size.

We have seen some monstrous cherryheads that were well over 12", the biggest girl we saw was a 14" gorgeous girl. There is no doubt that they can grow to nice healthy size.

 

[Stephanie Logan]

This may come as a shocking revelation but the world of Herpetology does not revolve around redfoot tortoises

Carl, I hope you know that this really hurt Dale's feelings. You could be a little more compassionate next time.

I think Carl is on the right track but going in an ambiguous direction. What about my poor Taco? There are reams of information on Redfoots, armies of Redfoot experts on this forum alone, stadiums full of cheering Redfoot fans. Meanwhile, the humble Chaco, the step-tortoise of the South American species, must nap in their hides while the world outside reverberates with the impassioned debates focusing on the mighty Redfoot, completely ignoring Chaco scholarship.

Of course Taco tries to carry on cheerfully and keep her inner disappointment and disillusionment from showing, but I know how she feels, because I share her feelings. Chacos are actually very attractive, graceful and delicate-featured tortoises. They have distinct personalities, and, from my own observations, exhibit an exceptional memory and intellect as well. Yet Chacos don't get so much as a mention in the Exotic Tortoise sub forum of TFO, but are instead consigned to anonymity in the General Tortoise Discussion section...I'm telling you, they get no respect at all.

 

[cdmay]

[There are 164 entries in my Carl M email folder dating back to 7/05.. so I have a lot of info about redfoot tortoises at hand. The little success I've had at breeding.. incubating and hatching redfoot tortoises I credit most to Carl May!

Terry K
[/quote]
Terry, "164 entries in my Carl M folder" no offense but mister, you sound like a stalker.
OK, that was just a joke. I appreciate the kind words.
However, you also made this statement...

"Carl and I don't claim to have or prefer "Orangehead" tortoises! We do claim we prefer Brazilian redfoot tortoises with more orange on their heads. Same big nose.. same plastron patterns, etc. Do those [that most likely come from a particular region.. however small as it may be] mean that we have a different ssp of 'carbonaria'? Absurd!!!"

This is where I cry foul. It is NOT absurd to consider cherryheads as a yet unnamed ssp. I absolutely do think that cherryheads, regardless of color, do indeed represent an easily defineable and at least sub-specific race of redfoots. The fact that they have yet to be formally named doesn't mean a thing to me because I know the reasons why they haven't been.
So when I see someone crediting me with something I do not now, nor have ever believed, that person is going to get called out on it.

One other thing...AllegraF is right in that cherryheads can begin laying fertile eggs that hatch into nice little babies at smaller sizes. At one time I had never seen a female cherryhead smaller than about 10 inches lay eggs. But since then I have seen numerous females in the 8.5 (rare) to 9.0 inch range lay good eggs.

 

[Redfoot NERD]

Do those [that most likely come from a particular region.. however small as it may be] mean that we have a different ssp of 'carbonaria'? Absurd!!!"

Those meant "ORANGEHEAD"! Meaning some of the species "splitters" would split the different colors into a ssp designation. Don't you think that would be a little [ absurd ] too much Carl?

Spoke with Mark earlier about the difference between North South East and/or West.. South American 'carbonaria'. He had mentioned that even tho' my one adult female ( featured here.. anyone remember the origin of this thread? ) was "orange" I could still tell she was a 'cherryhead'. I asked him if he realized that the plastron of the male 'cherryhead' was considerably more "shallow" than a comparible Northern male. There are again a number of subtle differences among the regions these tortoises are from...... and a number of very obvious differences as well.

Five years ago my 'younger' Guyana males [ 10" & 10.5" SCL ] produced viable eggs. I have reasons to believe my one 'cherryhead' male [ 9+" SCL ] will produce viable eggs now. The female here is over 12" now.

I have an idea that I'm going to start a thread on.. AND in early Sept. I acquired another female. I'll post her soon...

Terry K

BTW.. 164 emails means I didn't want to lose any of your "words of wisdom" Carl

 

[Bryan]

Carl is right here IMO, the differences between Northern, Southern, and Brazillian Redfoots are significant when you get to be familiar with different RF populations (South American Tortoises is a superb guide in this area). They are all beautiful in their own right but there could easily be at least 3 subspecies of Redfoots.

 

[Redfoot NERD]

What's with all of this different species and sub-species about gang? Do you want to start this end-less "debate" on your own thread? I try not to "over-ride" others' threads................ please?

Saying this may end this thread.. which is not my intent. (Nor was the "debate" issue in mind when I started it)

Terry K

 

[Neohippy]

Neat. I learned alot from this thread. Thanks!

I noticed some time ago, distinctions between my 4 that go beyond 'just a unique feature', and all the discussion here has prompted me to look into my little herd further to see where their roots may have originated.
We do it for ourselves with genealogy why not our fave critters with similar life spans? After all, my Irish heritage seems to give my family a superhero liver, and alcoholism to match, I wonder what Penny's great great grantortoise may have passed down.
Just because we are all humans, doesn't mean we are all 5'5" 150lb caucasian yuppies. And just because they are all redfoots....

 

[Stephanie Logan]

Seems to me it may be time to agree to disagree...

 

[Redfoot NERD]

There's nothing to agree or disagree on Stephanie.

Anybody know what this thread is about.. ALL of you guys that are STILL talking about or ever did talk about different species or subspecies.. why are you talking about it here for?????

If you guys want to continue to "DEBATE" species and subspecies.. go ahead!

Good night...

Terry K

 

[Redfootedboxturtles]

All "cherry heads" are Brazilian but not all Brazilians are "cherry heads"

I dont think "cherry head" should be used for any redfoot that isnt brazilian with insaid red color on the head.