Brazilian/"Cherryhead" NESTING

[Redfoot NERD]

Sorry Carl.. they insist on calling them "cherryheads" as if they were a unique species of tortoise!

"They" are really going to have trouble with this "ORANGE" "cherryhead"/Brazilian!

Here she is in the typical 'nesting trance'.. yeah she's a 'cherryhead' -

She finally started nesting about 2p -

Then after 'digging' for over an hour she started this -

And I robbed her nest when she started to cover it back up about 3:15p -

If you think a "door-knob" is slippery.. pick up a redfoot egg and run it under water to wash it off.. coded and ready for the incubator -

This year her eggs are so much larger than prior years - hoping this means she's finally "coming-of-age"!

Also hoping this guy is the father.. his red/orange and her orange should make beautiful babies!!!

He absolutely would NOT stop moving -

Amazed I got this 'profile' -

A new 'nose' shot -

Now we wait 120 - 135+ days...

NERD

 

[matt41gb]

Cool! Glad you got some more eggs. I'm hoping for the same next year.

 

[Jacqui]

Nice pictures. Looking forward to seeing some adorable cuties in the new year!

 

[terryo]

They are all beautiful...but...I still favor the red "Rudolph" nose. And...why do you NOT want to call them "Cherry Heads"?

 

[Candy]

I'll bet she feels a lot better now letting go of those eggs.

 

[terryo]

Sorry Carl.. they insist on calling them "cherryheads" as if they were a unique species of tortoise!

"They" are really going to have trouble with this "ORANGE" "cherryhead"/Brazilian!

AND.....who is "they"??

 

[dreadyA]

ive read that people in Brazil consider them to all be redfoots.

---

Oh! and Congrats and good luck, Terry!

 

[Redfoot NERD]

ive read that people in Brazil consider them to all be redfoots.

---

Oh! and Congrats and good luck, Terry!

---

They do dreadyA.. because that's what they are.. they're redfoot tortoises from Brazil.

Thanks...

Terry K

---

They are all beautiful...but...I still favor the red "Rudolph" nose. And...why do you NOT want to call them "Cherry Heads"?

Terry.. Tom explained all that in a thread not too long ago.. as did Carl [ cdmay ] in an email to me that I posted on my website - found here -
http://www.turtletary.com/cherryheads.htm..

The following is from an email..
from a very reliable breeder of Brazilian's..


[ Our mutual friend's ] animals are long termers from the 1985 Pet Farm shipment. But they are not Paraguayan as cherryheads are simply NOT found there. Or if they are, it is only in a tiny portion of the country. But the German researchers that I know who LIVE IN PARAGUAY, and who have studied the redfoots for years, assure me that they are NOT found there at all.
All of the confusion regarding so called "Paraguayan" cherryheads is from the fact that Brazilian animals were shipped from Paraguay back then----although they certainly were not collected from there.
Brazil was closed to exportation so the simple way around that was to truck hundreds of (actually, the one shipment consisted of nearly 5000 animals) tortoises into Paraguay and then send them to the USA from there. I know this for a fact as I have two friends who managed the reptile department at Pet Farm at the time. They were the ones who told me of this.
But since they were called 'Paraguayan' redfoots by Pet Farm back then (remember, Brazil was closed so Pet Farm calling them Brazilian Redfoots was tantamount to admitting they were illegally obtained) the name has stuck. But all of these animals being called true Paraguayan cherryheads is nonsense.. they are not from Paraguay.

( Tom was there when they came in.. maybe he will elaborate for us. )

One of his females raised from a 4" youngster..
shown here nesting for the first time at over 12" -

Not to say that they don't exist..
however it's not likely that the notorious Paraguayan "Dwarf" Cherryhead
is very common in the pet trade today! With the exception of one other breeder that I know of..
I've only seen one or two females that laid eggs at less than 10" SCL.
So beware of the 'typical' claim of "Dwarf" Cherryhead.. most grow to over 12"!

Also no 'official' sub-species designation has been established..
so a so-called "Cherryhead" is just another redfood with a few color
and subtle physical differences.. from Brazil - still a "regular" redfoot tortoise.

PLUS they come in different colors also.. the "orange" being much less common than the "red". And a few of us prefer the "orange" for that very reason. I hope this answers 'both' of your Q?'s TerryO.

NERD

 

[Madkins007]

"Brazilian Reds' or whatever we want to call them are not a different species or sub-species- YET...

The definitions for a subspecies are rather specific - if there are sub-groups within a species that meet certain rules, they will be considered sub-species.

Rule 1: They have to have identifiable characteristics different than the parent group, and there has to be a sort of dividing line between the groups. That is, if one group is black, and another group is white, that may count- but if groups in-between are shades of grey, then it does not (and is called a 'cline'- our fancy biology term of the day.) Different behaviors may count, and different DNA usually does as well.

Rule 2: The two groups should not readily interbreed if given a chance. Note that the rule is not 'cannot interbreed', just that they would not do so as easily as within the 'parent group'.

'Cherryheads' (or whatever we want to call them) certainly meet Rule 1. You can usually tell a cherryhead if you know what you are talking about. Terry can tell his orange-head is a 'cherryhead' even though it does not have the typical colors. There is also a lot of agreement that 'northern' and 'southern' Red-foots have different lifestyles, care needs, adult male shell shapes, etc.

Rule 2 seems to be a big problem for Red-foots- what breeds freely with what? What resists breeding with what? Captive interbreeding (or lack of it) by hobbyists is helpful, but not usually considered proof since a lot of animals breed differently in captivity than they would in more natural conditions. (There are also issues like proper documentation, etc. before hobbyist records can be considered.)

Some researchers have suggested that the Red-foots be broken down to 2, 3, or 4 groups in different mixtures of full species and sub-species. (For example, one guy, I believe in France, but I cannot relocate the article, suggests that Northern and Southerns are different species, with Cherryheads being a sub-species of the Southern.)

As they pay more and more attention to Red-foots and their DNA, etc., it would really surprise me if they did not break the species up somehow- it is rare in nature for a species to be spread over as much area and as many ecosystems as Red-foots are and not have sub-species.

 

[Redfoot NERD]

"Brazilian Reds' or whatever we want to call them are not a different species or sub-species- YET...

The definitions for a subspecies are rather specific - if there are sub-groups within a species that meet certain rules, they will be considered sub-species.

Rule 1: They have to have identifiable characteristics different than the parent group, and there has to be a sort of dividing line between the groups. That is, if one group is black, and another group is white, that may count- but if groups in-between are shades of grey, then it does not (and is called a 'cline'- our fancy biology term of the day.) Different behaviors may count, and different DNA usually does as well.

Rule 2: The two groups should not readily interbreed if given a chance. Note that the rule is not 'cannot interbreed', just that they would not do so as easily as within the 'parent group'.

'Cherryheads' (or whatever we want to call them) certainly meet Rule 1. You can usually tell a cherryhead if you know what you are talking about. Terry can tell his orange-head is a 'cherryhead' even though it does not have the typical colors. There is also a lot of agreement that 'northern' and 'southern' Red-foots have different lifestyles, care needs, adult male shell shapes, etc.

Rule 2 seems to be a big problem for Red-foots- what breeds freely with what? What resists breeding with what? Captive interbreeding (or lack of it) by hobbyists is helpful, but not usually considered proof since a lot of animals breed differently in captivity than they would in more natural conditions. (There are also issues like proper documentation, etc. before hobbyist records can be considered.)

Some researchers have suggested that the Red-foots be broken down to 2, 3, or 4 groups in different mixtures of full species and sub-species. (For example, one guy, I believe in France, but I cannot relocate the article, suggests that Northern and Southerns are different species, with Cherryheads being a sub-species of the Southern.)

As they pay more and more attention to Red-foots and their DNA, etc., it would really surprise me if they did not break the species up somehow- it is rare in nature for a species to be spread over as much area and as many ecosystems as Red-foots are and not have sub-species.

Mark somehow I'm going to get you to state your "source".. and stop speaking as if you know.. this being one of those cases.

Where did you get that info?

AND regardless.. whether there is more than 3 ssp(?) or not -

1) North of the Amazon
2) Brazil ( South of the Amazon )
3) South of Brazil
4) West of the Andes/Panama.. etc., etc.

They are still Redfoot tortoises.. ? carbonaria .. NOT "cherryheads" and those other ones. And your rhetoric is tasteless.. species or sub-species- YET ..... like the few others that make all of these claims. What difference does it make?

Carl and I don't claim to have or prefer "Orangehead" tortoises! We do claim we prefer Brazilian redfoot tortoises with more orange on their heads. Same big nose.. same plastron patterns, etc. Do those [that most likely come from a particular region.. however small as it may be] mean that we have a different ssp of 'carbonaria'? Absurd!!!

There will always be "clumpers" and "splitters".. and I'll always have Red - Yellow and Orange redfoot tortoises!

Cheers...

 

[allegraf]

"I'll always have Red - Yellow and Orange redfoot tortoises!"

Are you referring to your Brazilian redfoots, your Colombians or mixes?

 

[Redfoot NERD]

"I'll always have Red - Yellow and Orange redfoot tortoises!"

Are you referring to your Brazilian redfoots or your Colombians?

?????????????????????????????????????????????

Where's this one from? -

Guyana's too...

Terry K

 

[allegraf]

Are you planning to interbreed the different "types" of redfoots? Or are you breeding true to "type"?

 

[cdmay]

Whew! Where to begin in this mess?
To begin with I must make it clear that Terry Kilgore does NOT speak for me. His thoughts on taxonomy are his own and are not mine.
Madkins007 is generally correct when he stated what is common knowledge regarding species and sub-species and so his comments do not require a 'source' or any other validation. The descriptions of what consitutes a species, a subspecies or regional variant have been published in many books and even the most novice of reptile keepers usually becomes aware of these things after a short time. True, for some people modern taxonomy, biology and scientific accuracy are things to be avoided at all costs, but that doesn't make Madkins007 wrong. Madkins007 doesn't have to name sources to prove the Earth is round either.
Madkins007 statements about there being 3 or 4 recognized races of redfoot tortoise are correct and these findings have been published in at least two books (Turtles of Venezuela, 1984 and then the recent Vinke and Vinke book published last year) in addition to some reptile related magazines. I myself have had a number of conversations with the likes of Peter Pritchard, James Buskirk, the Vinkes of Paraguay and Germany, Jim Harding and numerous other world renown turtle experts or taxonomists who ALL agree that at the very least these races should be given sub-specific recognition. Some of the populations (cherryheads and the giant Chaco form) may even warrant their own species name.
As of yet, there is no formal description of these races but that doesn't mean that competant and observant reptile keepers should blindly pretend that all redfoots are exactly the same. I made this analogy a while back but it still applies---stating that all redfoot tortoises are just different colors of the exact same animal is like pretending that all North American box turtles are just 'Terrapene carolina' and that a three toed box turtle is exactly the same as a Florida box turtle.
As regards the common epithet 'cherryhead', Terry Kilgore is correct in that it is misleading as these animals sometimes do indeed have orange, coral, apricot and even yellow colors to them. But anyone with two functioning eyes can see that there is far more to cherryheads besides head color that makes them unique.
In addition, even a relatively new keeper can see that there are many differences between a Surinam redfoot and say, a giant Bolivian redfoot or a Guyana redfoot and a cherryhead. There are not only differences in size and color, there are obvious differences in head scutation, plastron shape and color, carapace shape and even in behavior. Some of these populations even have very different scalation on their limbs. For anyone to close their eyes to these facts I would simply advise this:
Stay in the shallow end of the pool as you are heading for the deep end and you clearly cannot swim.

 

[Madkins007]

Thank you, CD. I appreciate your thoughts!

I just want to clarify that my comment about the 'orange-head' was not meant to suggest that Terry or anyone has spoken about 'orangeheads', it was just meant to point out that Terry knew his Red-foot with the orange coloration was what is generally called a 'cherryhead' even though it lacked the tell-tale coloration.

I also want to apologize- I did not mean to hijack this thread!

 

[Redfoot NERD]

To begin with I must make it clear that Terry Kilgore does NOT speak for me. His thoughts on taxonomy are his own and are not mine.

Have no idea where that's coming from. Most of what I've learned about taxonomy.. I've learned from Carl May.

Madkins007 is generally correct when he stated what is common knowledge regarding species and sub-species and so his comments do not require a 'source' or any other validation.

I was wondering where he got the info that he gave so I could read it also.. you gave the info Carl.. Thank you. I'm not the only one that would like to see the 'source'.

Peter Pritchard, James Buskirk, the Vinkes of Paraguay and Germany, Jim Harding and numerous other world renown turtle experts or taxonomists who ALL agree that at the very least these races should be given sub-specific recognition. Some of the populations (cherryheads and the giant Chaco form) may even warrant their own species name.

What are they waiting for??? 'They' ( some ) claim different Mediterranean species due to a different stripe here or there! Once again all of this rhetoric about 'carbonaria' and no changes. It sure would make it easier on the egos and emotions among the "renowned experts".. and those that quote them - wouldn't it?

But anyone with two functioning eyes can see that there is far more to cherryheads besides head color that makes them unique.

There are 'many' that have never seen a "cherryhead" in person.. let alone been able to compare.

In addition, even a relatively new keeper can see that there are many differences between a Surinam redfoot and say, a giant Bolivian redfoot or a Guyana redfoot and a cherryhead. There are not only differences in size and color, there are obvious differences in head scutation, plastron shape and color, carapace shape and even in behavior. Some of these populations even have very different scalation on their limbs.

I don't doubt that 'anyone' that had the different locales 'in-hand' could see the difference. We all know that cdmay could with 20+ years of experience. But how about someone with 20 'days' ( of research ) experience.. who wants to buy a 'cherryhead' ( not a "normal" ) redfoot because they're COOL!?

All I was doing by starting this thread was trying to show:

1) I just might have pure "CHERRYHEAD" hatchlings in the spring.. first ever!

2) "CHERRYHEADS" come in different flavors.. not just "Cherry"!

Terry K

BTW.. because I type at about 3 words a minute Mark posted his reply before I finished my reply to Carl.

I want Mark [ madkins007 ] to know that I am trying to learn from his replies and his sources of reference so we all can add it to our "knowledge" of redfoots. Nothing toward Mark is personal.. and he need not apologize for his replies...... EVER!

 

[Madkins007]

I did not take it personally- we have talked enough that I am sure that even though we may disagree on an occasional point, your heart is in the right place, and you speak from your experiences while most of my comments are derived from what I have read more than any depth of having done stuff.

The definitions I used for sub-species came from Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subspecies). The comments about the different races or possible subs-species came from several sources, including those CD May mentioned.

 

[cdmay]

What are they waiting for??? 'They' ( some ) claim different Mediterranean species due to a different stripe here or there! Once again all of this rhetoric about 'carbonaria' and no changes. It sure would make it easier on the egos and emotions among the "renowned experts".. and those that quote them - wouldn't it?

Most of the above comments do not warrant a reply. But I will explain this one so there will be no doubt....
The folks I mentioned (and other professional herpetologists) are up to their gills in other projects. Recognizing that a population of turtles is unique from other known, or described populations, does not require a person to run out and formally name it-- as if it were that simple. There are simply too many new species being discovered and described every day. I am not speaking of 'splitting' either--there really are all kinds of reptiles and amphibians that are new to science and too few herpetologists in the field.
This may come as a shocking revelation but the world of Herpetology does not revolve around redfoot tortoises. In addition, to accurately document a new species requires verifiable voucher specimens with KNOWN LOCALITY. So even though competant turtle people may see the various races of redfoots from different parts of South America and conclude the obvious, that doesn't mean that they can drop everything, run to the countries of origin and get to the business of making a formal description of a new subspecies so that turtle hobbyists in the US will be satisfied.
As for the ego of these people...well, most of them have forgotten more than you will ever know about turtles and tortoises.
Their objective (usually) is to bring facts and information to light about the world around us.
The real egotists are those who have a few pet turtles and who might even manage to breed them and from this conclude that they themselves are an authority on all aspects of a certain animal.
I sure hope I never embarrass myself by getting to that point.

 

[Candy]

This may come as a shocking revelation but the world of Herpetology does not revolve around redfoot tortoises



Carl, I hope you know that this really hurt Dale's feelings. You could be a little more compassionate next time.

 

[Redfoot NERD]

At least 80% of what I claim to know I learned from Carl May. And I'm certainly not embarrassed to admit it.

There are 164 entries in my Carl M email folder dating back to 7/05.. so I have a lot of info about redfoot tortoises at hand. The little success I've had at breeding.. incubating and hatching redfoot tortoises I credit most to Carl May!

You have been a wealth of knowledge and experience that you have freely shared with me!

Thanks again Carl...

Terry K