coil-shaped CFL revisited

[Markw84]

I only have hearsay evidence, but I've heard the compact fluorescent bulbs don't put out much UVB.

I test mine all the time. I get 2.5 - 3 UVI at 7". That is over a pretty narrow spot so it is perfect for my hatchlings basking area that do not yet get sunshine. I als have some last 18 months with that output still given on 14 hrs a day

 

[jaizei]

Assuming CFL's were safe to use, what are the advantages of using these over florescent uvb tubes?

Space

 

[wellington]

Are you intentionally being idiotic or is it on accident? Seriously. Unless you are a kid, I would just stop.

Seriously, screen does block UVB! That's what we have all been told and its every place. So instead of insulting someone for asking a legit question, answer it! This is why these kinds of threads get shut down. Simone has to think they are all might because they think they know everything. If bulbs are tested so much as you stressed, then why didn't the idiots that tested the first coil bulbs catch the problem before it got to the public? Oh, that's right! Big companies/corporation are about the all mighty dollar!
So, seeing you have screen between your coil bulbs and your tortoises, blocking some UVB, maybe that's why they don't have eye problems!
So, play nice now, everyone or again this thread won't be able to go as far as it might!

 

[wellington]

Space

Space and they are much cheaper. I'd rather not chance my torts eyes.

 

[G-stars]

Send me the bulb in question. I will look at the output spectrum.

I have one... It's been outside for the last ~2-3 years but it turns on I just checked. Reason I personally decided not to continue using it was that I would find my tortoises under it staring into it. In short it seemed to be causing eye problems. That quickly changed when I changed the bulb to a MVB.

Send me a pm and I'll send it to you for testing.

 

[wellington]

I think that is exactly what anyone reading this and wondering if they should use coil bulbs should take away from this. In my original reply: "Coil bulbs MAY very rarely, cause problems - so is it worth the risk?"

However, for the great contributors who post replies regularly to help those with questions, my point was meant to bring up a much broader answer.

I try to keep in mind that I was once a lurker here. I joined the forum in 2012 but didn't start posting until 8 months ago. For every question and discussion posted, there are dozens of people reading and trying to make sense of how to properly care for their tortoise, but never post, or ask the question. So our answers need to as much as possible be informative and try to honestly cover the issue at hand and try to not let the silent readers draw incorrect conclusions and miss applications they may feel is similar.

This is where sometimes members get very offended. Telling them more then they are asking for. @Tom and I are just a couple that get a bad rap for going beyond the original OP thread question. Usually going beyond gets many turned off. Not always can one have the time to kiss up and gently say all one needs to improve. When a thread is posted about the eyes, it's sometimes assumed, depending on their join date, that they have already posted about the enclosure and what's in it. Remember too, out of the thousands of members, there are only a handful or two that try to offer help. Also, a lot of members eye problems have been corrected from just changing the bulb. At least that's what they share with us.

 

[wellington]

There may not be proof that they are still causing eye problems. However, where's the proof they aren't?
Also, where's the proof that every bad bulb was returned from ever single store that sold them and then destroyed or fixed?
I will take the word of this forum to not trust them and will continue to pass it on!

 

[Tom]

If bulbs are tested so much as you stressed, then why didn't the idiots that tested the first coil bulbs catch the problem before it got to the public?

This is a great question that never occurred to me Barb. Thanks for posing it.

To all:
I don't think large corporations are evil and I don't think they have any bad intentions. I think they are huge inefficient behemoths bogged down by ridiculous numbers of laws and regulations. I don't think ZooMed intends to sell harmful bulbs. I think they don't realize the scope of the problem largely because professional people like Brian in WI tell them there is no problem and that people like me are crazy kooks with hippie dippie ideas while I'm standing there holding a friend's bearded dragon with swollen, irritated, burned eyes. In fact, I am a huge fan of capitalism and people getting rich through hard work and effort.

 

[wellington]

Barb, I did not say that at all. Nowhere in my post did I say they are safe. But you state as fact "what THEY have done to Tortoises eyes and continue to do!" That is not a fact - that is a conclusion. There are several things that cause eye problems in tortoises. Since 90% of the "eye problem" cases reported here on the forum that I found, did NOT include a coil bulb, then why do we just look to coil bulbs and STOP THERE? This is an emotional issue for so many because questioning our beliefs is emotional. The amount of times COIL is mentioned on this forum builds constantly on everyone's PERCEPTION. If eye problem is mentioned in 100 posts, coil is always brought up 100 times. Not diet, not substrate, not temperatures, not start techniques. Although all are brought up and some quite frequently, only coil is ALWAYS brought up. But it turned out that only 8 of those time will a coil bulb be actually used, and of those 8 other issues seem to also be as equally a causing culprit. That means to our emotional side there has been 100 times the coil issue has surfaced again, yet it was only 8 time it was even present!!! THERE"S SO MUCH WE COULD LEARN.

Why are 90% of eye problems leopard tortoises? I have never seen that brought up or realized since we are so focused on COIL.
Are tortoises, especially leopards, susceptible to Vitamin A deficiencies?
What role does low humidity play in eye irritations, especially hatchlings?
How many eye issues are the result of incorrect placement of UV lighting? Are tortoises even susceptible to UVB (not UVC) overexposure?
How many ask if it is one eye or both affected? That would usually indicate an injury, abrasion as opposed to other problems, but we have not learned to ask that question.
Foreign bodies in the eye are a frequent problem from some type beddings used. Is that question being asked?
Did you know if a hibernating / brumating tortoise gets cold enough, it's eyes can begin to freeze and can form a cataract?

So why is it that coil is brought up 100% of the time at the exclusion of other possibles, when coil rarely is even present? Yet the other issues above are almost always present?

If you look up "eye problems in tortoises" on the internet, Coil bulbs come up in a very few instances. Most of the above come up all the time, yet do not come up here.

So many good contributors here, recommend eye drops and the baby food soaks that seem to work a great percentage of the time. That seems to point to Vitamin A or irritation, as the main contributor.

Since a vast majority of cases are hatchlings, the hatchling failure syndrome with poor renal function could also be a big issue. I personally believe leopards are the most common victim of hatchling failure syndrome as they may be even more sensitive to humidity issues upon hatching, yet treated so commonly as a "dry species"

Think about the wrath @Tom endured when he was proposing and even posting results of humidity as the primary cause of pyramiding. Everyone KNEW and immediately jumped on diet and/or fast growth when pyramiding was brought up. End of discussion. It's only by looking beyond those accepted "causes" since he saw so many examples of pyramiding when those cases were not present, and cases when they were present but no pyramiding! I believe we are seeing a similar thing here if we look. Way too many cases where eye issues are there but no coil! Way too many cases where there is a coil present but no eye issues. Way too many cases where eye issues plus coil, yet no improvement until other changes were made.

MY PROBLEM WITH COIL, Barb, is that all these issues are not being raised to the degree I believe they should be. It is insulting for you to imply I have something to gain from the Coil Bulb Manufacturers, when I am sticking my neck out to the wrath of my many friends here on the forum because I CARE ABOUT THE TORTOISES.

If you didn't say that, then you weren't one I was referring to. I didn't quote your post did I? If I did it was a mistake. I didn't think I quoted anyone's post at that point.

 

[Tom]

This assertion though that they aren't "evil" and that they have our pets best interests at heart though is plain silly. Anybody with half a brain and a heart can walk through a chain pet store and see a company that puts profits before animals. Not only are the animals kept really poorly but there are way too many products that aren't healthy being pushed and sold.

Agreed. Another good point. Ramped water bowls, infrared spot bulbs, sand substrates, mealworms as a sole source of food for insectivores, stick-on dial type thermometers and hygrometers, 10 gallon tanks for 4"+ russians, etc...

 

[Tom]

I guess the problem I have is I find some of the best advice givers here seem almost myopic on this subject. As soon as coil is mentioned, the discussion stops in looking for a possible problem. I have watched that on dozens of occasions her the past six months since I decided to make this one of my causes to follow on the forum.

I do use coil bulb and have for over 6 years now. Have used over 20 in that time with no problems. I do use a UV meter and do watch things constantly. I find the application especially for hatchling aquatic turtles, is a good fit. I like a basking area with a UVI of about 2.5 - 3 in a small basking area. I get that with a coil about 7" above turtle level. I can put a small fixture with an incandescent immediately next to it, and have a small spot of UV and minimize the excess a long tube would produce with associated algae production, or the heat of the MVB.

I participated in a thread exactly like this in about Jan of this year. I tried to bring up the issues that also cause eye problem and hoped the coil thing did stop people from looking for other causes that may have been or are there that could be causing the problem. It became so emotional that the thread was closed. I felt it a valuable discussion despite the emotion, but was closed out of input. I actually was very close to quitting the forum.

I also was told we see examples of the damage every week here. Just go back through or watch the forum for eye problems and I would see the problem. So I did. I researched eye and coil on the forum for the past few years. Spent at least 25 hours making a spreadsheet wit over 100 threads, but was closed out of the discussion as I started to see results, and saw that it seemed the ones most vocal here just did not want to hear.

I found...
-Over 90% of the cases of "eye problems" were leopard tortoises.
-Less than 8% of the time when "eye problems" was brought up was a coil being used.
-Every time a coil bulb was in use there was also obvious problems with heat, or substrate or diet, or UV placement also present.
-Over 80& of the time when coil was found in use, the discussion looking for problems stopped even though at least one other obvious (to me) issue was also present. (even saginawhxc in his original post never mentioned eye problems, just stated he switched yet mentioned nighttime temps at 70 and improving the diet and getting rid of the hay bedding. Also says an instant solution when we know it would take at least few days if that was the only issue. Perhaps other changes he made solved the problem that showed its results at that time?)
-I could not find one example of the coil bulb being shown to be THE issue. (I only went back 2 years in limiting the search. I wanted to see if they STILL create issues)

Other examples since then I can immediately recall=
-Someone with eye problems was immediately asked if using coil. reply was no. he was using 150 watt MVB changed to 8" above substrate right when problem started plus diet issues. No one said anything about that since MVB are "safe" and I then replied to raise the MVB immediately.
-The few times I have seen someone stating eye problems and using coil, the discussion stopped. I jumped in and asked other husbandry questions and there was always other obvious Husbandy issues such as - one feeding one item only with no vit A in it, another with temps way too low for a leopard hatchling.

I KNOW COIL LIGHTS HAVE CREATED PROBLEMS IN THE PAST. I do not refute that. But I do believe we have become too myopic on this site. The most common statement of fact give is that coil bulbs create eye problems. period, end of conversation. That is simply not true. I can prove that as I use coil bulbs and have no issues as do many on the turtle forum I also frequent. Even the bearded dragon website found so many cases were the issue of how UV lights were mounted. With basking branches commonly in use the light was placed where the Beardie could climb right up next to the bulb. And with so small a spot of effective, yet strong UV, it was a bad application as the beardie tried to get as much UV for basking yet, the spot too small to cover the lizard, yet intense at the head.

Tom states the manufacturers are making a ton as these pour off pet shop shelves. With so many of these bulbs out there yet so few POSSIBLE problems I find here and turtle forum websites, I believe the statement needs to be - Coil bulbs MAY very rarely, cause problems - so is it worth the risk? That is why I have never recommended using coil here despite using them myself.

So what am I saying????

Tom is closest to that statement when he weighs in on coil bulbs. He also normally asks for more input on temps, substrate, diet, etc. I believe we also should see the issues with the proper placement of ANY UV source, not just the type and stop there. This thread became emotional again, immediately. Let's start giving the same great advice here when asked about UVB coil bulbs as we do with most any other husbandry issues and not stop all comments and help and suggestions to help the tortoise as soon as the word COIL is mentioned.

Just my thoughts, but I've spent tons of hours researching everything I can find - the data, studies, and the actual cases here.

Thank you for taking the time to share your observations. I do agree with some of what you've said here and don't deny some of this some of the time, but our perceptions on this issue differ. Thank you for pointing out that I do go farther with the line of questioning when I try to help people figure out what is going on with their tortoises. I can't speak for anyone else, but I agree with all the other potential causes of eye issues you pointed out, but sometimes, the coil bulb IS the problem.

I think part of this issue, perhaps the biggest part, is that many people share your experience. They've used many of these bulbs and have not yet experienced a problem. Everything has been fine. In my view, this is akin to the first five russian roulette players asserting that the game is perfectly safe. Ignoring what somebody else has endured seems foolish to me.

Nothing but a respectful, calm, conversational tone among friends here now: I want you to tell me that I haven't seen what I have seen. I want you to tell me that all the vets I know that have personally dealt with this issue have not seen what they have seen. Now I KNOW that YOU have not seen the problems with these bulbs, yet, but knowing what you know of me, my devotion and dedication to tortoises, my credibility, our past conversations, will you tell me that this is a figment of my imagination and I've made this up?

Every time this discussion resurfaces, I (we) concede that we do not know what percentage of these bulbs is faulty. Is it one in ten? Probably not. One in 100? One on 1000? One in 10,000? I do not have this answer. I just know that I've seen several pairs of burned reptile eyes in the last few years caused by faulty cfl bulbs that seems to be working fine and as designed. To be fair, I have also seen many more of these bulbs that were in use and NOT causing any problem. This seems to be a game of chance to me. How many bulbs will you go through before you see an issue? 100? 1000? Or is the next package you open going to be "the one"? I don't know. I do know that thousands of these bulbs are sold and that only some of them burn reptile eyes.

 

[wellington]

Agreed. Another good point. Ramped water bowls, infrared spot bulbs, sand substrates, mealworms as a sole source of food for insectivores, stick-on dial type thermometers and hygrometers, 10 gallon tanks for 4"+ russians, etc...

Big Corps is about money. Not necessarilly evil, or all of them, but most of them are about money. If they aren't about the money first, they wouldn't have investors, which means they wouldn't be around. The greed for money is in every place that money can be earned. Animals is a big space for greed. Look at puppy mills, pet stores, and the back yard breeders. Even some vets. They only care about the money. If your not one of them, your losing money or just breaking even, if your lucky. The people working for these corps. aren't the greedy ones, at least not most, but it's the owners. That's why no matter how many times you try to tell a company about the items they are selling are bad, they still will sell them, cuz people will buy them. Pets are still considered less, only as property and unless you can prove the item killed or maimed your animal and that your animal has and could have still made you money, you won't have a leg to stand on in court and the corps know that. Besides the fact that a tortoise or lizard breeder probably can't buy the type of lawyer a Corp has.

 

[Markw84]

Thank you for taking the time to share your observations. I do agree with some of what you've said here and don't deny some of this some of the time, but our perceptions on this issue differ. Thank you for pointing out that I do go farther with the line of questioning when I try to help people figure out what is going on with their tortoises. I can't speak for anyone else, but I agree with all the other potential causes of eye issues you pointed out, but sometimes, the coil bulb IS the problem.

I think part of this issue, perhaps the biggest part, is that many people share your experience. They've used many of these bulbs and have not yet experienced a problem. Everything has been fine. In my view, this is akin to the first five russian roulette players asserting that the game is perfectly safe. Ignoring what somebody else has endured seems foolish to me.

Nothing but a respectful, calm, conversational tone among friends here now: I want you to tell me that I haven't seen what I have seen. I want you to tell me that all the vets I know that have personally dealt with this issue have not seen what they have seen. Now I KNOW that YOU have not seen the problems with these bulbs, yet, but knowing what you know of me, my devotion and dedication to tortoises, my credibility, our past conversations, will you tell me that this is a figment of my imagination and I've made this up?

Every time this discussion resurfaces, I (we) concede that we do not know what percentage of these bulbs is faulty. Is it one in ten? Probably not. One in 100? One on 1000? One in 10,000? I do not have this answer. I just know that I've seen several pairs of burned reptile eyes in the last few years caused by faulty cfl bulbs that seems to be working fine and as designed. To be fair, I have also seen many more of these bulbs that were in use and NOT causing any problem. This seems to be a game of chance to me. How many bulbs will you go through before you see an issue? 100? 1000? Or is the next package you open going to be "the one"? I don't know. I do know that thousands of these bulbs are sold and that only some of them burn reptile eyes.

Tom. I agree! Again and again I try to make the point I AM NOT advising anyone to use coil bulbs and will recommend against it. But my point gets lost beyond that. I think there are issues we don't yet understand yet don't pursue because we don't look past the coil bulb. Look at this post. It has become totally defending why not to recommend the bulbs yet I Agee with that from the beginning. All the other issues I've found in researching forum cases is being ignored here Exactly my point!!!!!

 

[wellington]

Tom. I agree! Again and again I try to make the point I AM NOT advising anyone to use coil bulbs and will recommend against it. But my point gets lost beyond that. I think there are issues we don't yet understand yet don't pursue because we don't look past the coil bulb. Look at this post. It has become totally defending why not to recommend the bulbs yet I Agee with that from the beginning. All the other issues I've found in researching forum cases is being ignored here Exactly my point!!!!!

I don't think most post are towards you. At least not mine. Most I believe are pointing towards the OP. Being it is about the coil bulbs, most post subjects will be about that and only that. Otherwise it gets too off topic.
Maybe start a new thread, pointing out what you have observed in searching old posts, etc.

 

[Markw84]

Good point Barb! I shall do that soon.

 

[Tom]

All the other issues I've found in researching forum cases is being ignored here Exactly my point!!!!!

Speaking only for myself, I saw your point, and don't disagree with what you found. Not ignoring it at all. I would love to go case by case and discuss each one with you, but I haven't got that kind of time. Perhaps over some iced tea or wine next to your pond someday? I wonder what cases I could find to reference that demonstrate why I have this POV. While I can recall several cases here on this forum, my assertions are largely based on cases I've actually seen in the real world, or heard from vets. I have no doubt that some cases of eye issues are caused by other things besides coil bulbs. I can recall times when it was due to sand, or due to one eye being mechanically injured, but I can also recall several other cases that were pretty obviously caused by cfl bulbs, as removal of the bulb caused cessation of symptoms. I'm not talking about those posts where someone changes 10 things in one day either.

Funny, I often make a mental note when I see clear cut cases. I tell myself that I've got to remember how to find this thread for reference when this coil bulb argument comes up again. Then I promptly forget the thread name in the sea of info that rushes through my brain daily...

 

[ascott]

I see people still talking about coil bulbs. The spectrum was changed a long time ago to fix that. Unless you have one 5 years or older that you saved, you aren't going to have an issue.

Hi. I am curious, I have researched that a large part of the problem when the bulbs did have an adverse affect that it was likely more because of the placement of the bulb more over than simply the bulb alone? ie, coil bulb used in the cone hood versus in a side mount fixture as they were designed for? I personally have used the coil style bulb in both, simply to see what, if any, difference in animal behavior occurred....I personally noticed if I placed the bulb in a cone then the animal seemed to stare / point its head in that direction more and when placed in the correct side mount fixture the animal seemed much more relaxed?

Also, aside from this particular topic, there are absolutely cliques on this forum, as is in may places in life. The cliques are very apparent, so easily ignored, right? So to side step that crowd is possible...just go on with what you want to share...folks here, as with every other place in life, can decide by their own research what works for them....I mean some folks say leave a water dish in an enclosure full time with a young tortoise...personally I am not comfortable with that until the tortoise can right themselves...some folks use sand in an indoor enclosure, I personally would never offer up any sand in an indoor enclosure....lots of things are available for individuals to customize for the individual tortoise in their care, right?

If there are 10 opinions/points on one topic, then there are lots of variables to work with..which is fantastic, right?

 

[Rzm7810]

I'm just going with Tom on not using them. I feel better safe not using than sorry until there are definite answers.

It's like not being sure if when you think you see poison ivy. Do you try to find the hard way and touch it or back off just in case.

 

[BrianWI]

The long tube won't spread the uvb over larger distance ? Thru the habitat ? I'm not arguing either. I'm trying to learn. I have Aspergers. So I ask a lot of questions? Sorry

I think you misunderstood. I said no, the cfl would not be as effective.

 

[Rzm7810]

I understand what your saying. Thank You. So if I was looking to have as much uvb in tank as possible. I'd need to go t5 though correct ? Because of the distance they cover length wise.