Controversial pet visit ?

[Tom]

i would disagree the cause of death is obvious....... it would take some serious effort to kill a tortoise through dehydration, first year desert tortoises have been shown to survive 16months without water...... their dehydration tolerance is pretty well documented and studied....... i've read necropsies on like a dozen tortoise that were known to have died after a prolonged drought, the most common finding was accumulated iron in the liver, and bladder stones , there was no mention of kidney disease, aside from one with gout......first year hatchlings survived a year long drought better than older juveniles , they attributed it to the egg yolk retained internally...... during a drought a desert tortoise can lose up to 40%of it's body water, and reduce it's metabolism by70-90%........

Your disagreement is based on ignorance and lack of experience with the species and factors in question.

Hatchling desert tortoises in the typical beef jerky maker style enclosures or outside all day here in the dry southwest as is usually recommended by "experts" usually results in the death of the baby. Same with sulcatas and leopards.

It is a waste of our time to continue arguing over what we think happens in the wild when we have first hand evidence of what happens when they are kept this way in captive conditions. Well... one of us has first hand evidence...

This pattern is seen again and again when breeders skip the brooder box, soak once a week, if at all, and keep them in a dry enclosure with low humidity. It is obvious.

 

[Tom]

Can failed breeder symptoms show months after purchase?

Yes. Its usually several weeks, but sometimes as much as 6 months.

at what age are tortoises pass the sensitive stage?

It's not age, its size. If you recall I asked you early on how much the tortoise weighed. This is because they all stall right around 50 grams in these cases. It's a tell tale sign of this "syndrome". If your tortoise had made it to 65 grams and then stalled, I would agree that something else was going on, and that very well could be one of the many tortoise diseases that are now circulating around.

The pattern is the same and we see it all the time. Dry start, they seem healthy and fine, they eat well and are active, they grow to 50 grams and then stay at 50 grams for several weeks or even months. Then, at some point, weeks later, we see lethargy, lack of appetite, the eyes don't want to open, spongy plastron, and finally the bruising on the plastron which your vet diagnosed as septicemia.

We aren't talking about dehydrated juveniles and bladder stones here. That comes way later if it happens. We are talking about hatchlings that don't get the needed hydration right out of the egg.

 

[TammyJ]

A thought I had about tortoises or any reptile at reptile shows: its being "active and moving around" doesn't necessarily mean that it's healthy. The activity may just be a natural result of its fright and need to escape a strange new environment, even being sick.

 

[mark1]

There are multiple causes for sure, but from observation of countless captive tortoises, most if not virtually all tortoises with bladder stones have been kept too dry or are dehydrated, so naturally it’s likely one of the leading factors.
I don’t think it’s necessarily dehydration when it comes to breeder failure syndrome, it’s more about the effects it causes from starting them too dry, I believe that’s what effects their k

Survey of tortoises with urolithiasis in Japan

 

[mark1]

Your disagreement is based on ignorance and lack of experience with the species and factors in question.

Hatchling desert tortoises in the typical beef jerky maker style enclosures or outside all day here in the dry southwest as is usually recommended by "experts" usually results in the death of the baby. Same with sulcatas and leopards.

It is a waste of our time to continue arguing over what we think happens in the wild when we have first hand evidence of what happens when they are kept this way in captive conditions. Well... one of us has first hand evidence...

This pattern is seen again and again when breeders skip the brooder box, soak once a week, if at all, and keep them in a dry enclosure with low humidity. It is obvious.

the "ignorance" in what i said wouldn't be mine, it'd be people like these in the links below .... i'm just parroting what they say.... Tom i may have no tortoises , but you'd be mistaken if you think i've never kept tortoises......

you might want to look up Kristina Drakes credentials????? this was began in 1994.......

Integrating Desert Tortoise Recovery Actions for Current and Future Landscapes
Kristina Drake, U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service, Desert Tortoise Recovery Office


this was began in 2002,

DESERT TORTOISE HEAD STARTING PROJECT-EARLY PHASE, EDWARDS AIR FORCE BASE, CALIFORNIA


you might want to look up these folks, KENNETH A. NAGY1 , L. SCOTT HILLARD1 , MICHAEL W. TUMA2, 3 , AND DAVID J. MORAFKA......... you could also take notice of some of the dates in this program, 1987, 1984, 1990.......

HEAD-STARTED DESERT TORTOISES (GOPHERUS AGASSIZII): MOVEMENTS, SURVIVORSHIP AND MORTALITY CAUSES FOLLOWING THEIR RELEASE



this ones from 2012-2013, maybe earlier.... there is a whole slew of "ignorant" people involved in this one......

Survival and Movements of Head‐Started Mojave Desert Tortoises


a bunch more "ignorant" people

Comparing Husbandry Techniques for Optimal Head-starting of the Mojave Desert Tortoise (Gopherus agassizii)
Pearson A. McGovern1,2,6, Kurt A. Buhlmann1 , Brian D. Todd3 , Clinton T. Moore4 , J. Mark Peaden3,7, Jeffrey Hepinstall-Cymerman2 , Jacob A. Daly5 , and Tracey D. Tuberville1,

 

[Tom]

the "ignorance" in what i said wouldn't be mine, it'd be people like these in the links below .... i'm just parroting what they say.... Tom i may have no tortoises , but you'd be mistaken if you think i've never kept tortoises......

you might want to look up Kristina Drakes credentials????? this was began in 1994.......

Integrating Desert Tortoise Recovery Actions for Current and Future Landscapes
Kristina Drake, U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service, Desert Tortoise Recovery Office


this was began in 2002,

DESERT TORTOISE HEAD STARTING PROJECT-EARLY PHASE, EDWARDS AIR FORCE BASE, CALIFORNIA


you might want to look up these folks, KENNETH A. NAGY1 , L. SCOTT HILLARD1 , MICHAEL W. TUMA2, 3 , AND DAVID J. MORAFKA......... you could also take notice of some of the dates in this program, 1987, 1984, 1990.......

HEAD-STARTED DESERT TORTOISES (GOPHERUS AGASSIZII): MOVEMENTS, SURVIVORSHIP AND MORTALITY CAUSES FOLLOWING THEIR RELEASE



this ones from 2012-2013, maybe earlier.... there is a whole slew of "ignorant" people involved in this one......

Survival and Movements of Head‐Started Mojave Desert Tortoises


a bunch more "ignorant" people

Comparing Husbandry Techniques for Optimal Head-starting of the Mojave Desert Tortoise (Gopherus agassizii)
Pearson A. McGovern1,2,6, Kurt A. Buhlmann1 , Brian D. Todd3 , Clinton T. Moore4 , J. Mark Peaden3,7, Jeffrey Hepinstall-Cymerman2 , Jacob A. Daly5 , and Tracey D. Tuberville1,

This all wild tortoises in the wild. These are the same people who put together the DT care sheets that kill all the baby DTs that hatch in captivity.

We aren't talking about the wild or wild tortoises. We are talking about the results of two different methods of starting CB babies.

Further, this thread isn't about DTs. Its about a leopard tortoise.

I don't doubt that you've had tortoises. I know that you have. But have you raised dozens or hundreds of CB hatchlings the old wrong way for a couple of decades, and also the new and improved way for another decade and a half? I have. That's how I know what the results will be.

 

[Tom]

A thought I had about tortoises or any reptile at reptile shows: its being "active and moving around" doesn't necessarily mean that it's healthy. The activity may just be a natural result of its fright and need to escape a strange new environment, even being sick.

These dehydrated babies usually walk around, eat, bask, and seem totally fine. It takes weeks before they start to decline, but during those weeks a properly started one will steadily grow, while a dry started baby will stall at around 50 grams.

 

[Tom]

Survey of tortoises with urolithiasis in Japan

This study confirms much of what we say about this here, and could not confirm some parts of what we say here. What was your point in posting this?

 

[The_Four_Toed_Edward]

"Unlike mammals, urine is modified in the lower urinary tract of chelonians. Urine that passes through the ureters into the cloaca can flow retrograde into the bladder or colon, and urine in the bladder can flow retrograde into the colon. The epithelium of both the bladder and colon can absorb water, which results in urine concentration.32,35 Free-ranging desert tortoises retain urate precipitates in the bladder until rainfall stimulates bladder emptying followed by imbibition of a large volume of water.35 Thus, chronic dehydration, chronic overheating, or lack of a suitable water source might cause an increase in water absorption from the bladder and colon, which leads to further supersaturation and concentration of urate excreta in the bladder and might be a predisposing factor for urolith formation."

Diagnosis and treatment of urolithiasis in client-owned chelonians: 40 cases (1987–2012)

Abstract Objective—To calculate the prevalence of urolithiasis in client-owned chelonians examined at a veterinary teaching hospital and to describe the clinical signs, diagnosis, and treatment of urolithiasis in chelonians. Design—Retrospective case series. Animals—40 client-owned turtles and...

avmajournals.avma.org

 

[mark1]

This study confirms much of what we say about this here, and could not confirm some parts of what we say here. What was your point in posting this?

so naturally it’s likely one of the leading factors.

do the math........ if you read these papers, it would be more likely housing them indoors being a "leading factor", or feeding supplements..........


"water was available ad libitum for 21 (52.5%) and once or twice weekly for 2 (5%); the availability of water was not recorded for the remaining 17 (42.5%)."

"Of the 67 (66.3%) with clear water sources, the method of water supply was as follows: 39 (58.2%) baths, 17 (25.3%) permanently installed water bowl, 7 (1%) baths and water bowl, and 4 (0.6%) with no source of water supply. Of the 36 (35.6%) cases with clear keeping location, 34 (94.4%) were indoors, 1 (2.9%) was outdoors, and 1 (2.9%) was kept in both locations."

 

[mark1]

This all wild tortoises in the wild. These are the same people who put together the DT care sheets that kill all the baby DTs that hatch in captivity.

these are tortoises kept in pens , some for years..... some raised indoors for their first year..... some provided supplemental water , some not , there was a 16 month drought during the time of this study..... these tortoises are no different than one kept in the pet hobby , in someone yard, until they are released ..... they are raised with the goal being long term survival......

can you direct me to some of these care sheets????

Further, this thread isn't about DTs. Its about a leopard tortoise.

you do realize where some of these wild leopard tortoise's live in somalia, ethiopa, sudan and even south africa, the climate and the annual rainfall ????? they give death valley a run for it's money.....

 

[Markw84]

do the math........ if you read these papers, it would be more likely housing them indoors being a "leading factor", or feeding supplements..........


"water was available ad libitum for 21 (52.5%) and once or twice weekly for 2 (5%); the availability of water was not recorded for the remaining 17 (42.5%)."

"Of the 67 (66.3%) with clear water sources, the method of water supply was as follows: 39 (58.2%) baths, 17 (25.3%) permanently installed water bowl, 7 (1%) baths and water bowl, and 4 (0.6%) with no source of water supply. Of the 36 (35.6%) cases with clear keeping location, 34 (94.4%) were indoors, 1 (2.9%) was outdoors, and 1 (2.9%) was kept in both locations."

The issue is not what a tortoise that makes it past hatchling stage (2x-3x its hatch weight) can withstand. The focus of "breeder failure" or "hatchling failure" is what happens to a newly hatched tortoise that has not yet doubled its hatch weight when housed in drier conditions. My talk at the TTPG conference year before last was on this exact topic with lots of data, pictures and graphs of what happens.

Take a new hatchling and put it in an enclosure similar to what you would house an older tortoise, or leave it in the egg box waiting for the yolk sac to be absorbed. Most don't feed it for a week as the yolk sac is being absorbed. In about a week the yolk sac is completely absorbed and the baby will be about 90% of its hatch weight. This is what most breeders do, and I did for a few decades. This is a recipe for hatchling failure.

Take a new hatchling and soak it immediately upon leaving the egg and then daily. Put it in a brooder box at 100% humidity on a substrate of wet paper towel, or better yet, plant leaves. Have plenty of good chopped food, and lots of mulberry or grape leaves in the box to allow the baby to stay hidden. Put that brooder box back in the incubator or something set to maintain the same incubation temperatures. Keep the baby that way until it passes its second real, solid stool. That will be about 8 days for most tortoises and 10 - 12 days for a Galapagos. It will have eaten from its first day out of egg. It will be about 120% of its hatch weight. It will eat anything you put in front of it and gain about 35% - 55% of its current weight its next month.

 

[mark1]

what do you think kills them , kidney damage? bladder stones?

how many desert tortoises would you think have been head started since those programs began? as of 2013 irwin alone claimed they hatched 540 ......

is what the folks below claim not true

Hatching success.—We measured nest hatching success during the six years from 2003 to 2008. Predation on eggs and new hatchlings by White-tailed Antelope Squirrels (Ammospermophilus leucurus; in 2004) and on un-emerged hatchlings by native Fire Ants (Solenopsis xyloni; mainly in 2005) reduced the number of observations we could use to evaluate supplemental rain effects on nest hatching success. During four years when nests were not predated, hatching success of clutches laid in pens having only natural rainfall averaged 76.9% (± 10.5, n = 7) and hatching success in pens that received added rain averaged 66.6% (± 12.0, n = 5). These differences are not significant (t = 1.57, df = 10, P = 0.146). The overall mean hatching success was 72.6% (± 11.9, n = 12). Survivorship and body condition o





Survivorship and body condition of yearlings.—Heavy predation on hatchlings (as well as on eggs) by ground squirrels in summer 2004, before rodent-resistant flashing was installed on the enclosures, and predation by the Fire Ants whose population erupted
following the high rainfall in 2004–2005, reduced the number of determinations of annual survivorship we obtained for first-year juveniles. Annual survivorship in nine pens having natural rainfall only, over four years, averaged 89.7% (± 11.7, n = 9), while survivorship in added precipitation pens averaged 90.3% (± 11.6, n = 6). These mean survivorship values do not differ significantly (t = -0.915, df = 13, P = 0.915), and the overall mean was 89.9% (± 11.2, n = 15). Survivorship of just those first-year juveniles in three unwatered pens during the drought year (2006–2007) alone was also high (100%, 100%, and 82%), averaging 94.0% (± 10.4, n = 3). Condition Index values of tortoises were usually highest shortly after hatching, and were significantly lower a year later, especially for those juveniles that were still in their first year sometime during the 16-month drought (Table 1). Juveniles living in pens with natural rainfall only had CI values that were the same as those for juveniles in rain-supplemented pens during four of five years. The exception was the drought year, when CIs were 15% lower in pens without supplemental rain (Table 1). The overall average CI of hatchlings was 0.587 (± 0.038, n = 81). Growth rates of yearlings.—During their first year, tortoises living in pens receiving only natural rainfall added 3% to 7% to their shell length per year when rainfall was at or above average (Table 2). However, during the drought year, tortoises that hatched that year in unwatered pens grew little (average 0.8% increase in MCL/yr), and several individuals actually shrunk. Tortoises living in adjacent rain-supplemented pens grew 2–16 times faster (average 6.5). Even during the record high rainfall year, rain supplementation increased growth rates two-fold



The lack of any significant effect of irrigation on survivorship of juveniles during their first year, especially during the severe drought year, is surprising. Even adult tortoises are known to succumb to drought (Peterson 1994; Berry et al. 2002). Field studies of the water balance of neonate and yearling Desert Tortoises at a head-start facility in the central Mojave Desert (Nagy et al. 1997; Wilson et al. 2001) indicated that a drought year having no available drinking water or green annual plants could be fatal to these young tortoises. Moreover, our observations of the juveniles living in the three unwatered pens during the dry spring and summer of 2007 led us believe they would not live very long. Their CI values had dropped to near or below 0.4, indicating severe dehydration and starvation (Nagy et al., 2002). Most were lethargic and unable (or unwilling) to open their eyes or respond quickly to touch stimuli when encountered at or near their burrow entrances in early morning and evening. Substantial rain showers in early September ended the drought and apparently saved the lives of those first-year juveniles in the unwatered pens. They drank rainwater, recovered reasonably good body condition by mid-September, and had high annual survivorship (94%). Stored yolk may help confer drought resistance on first-year tortoises

 

[Tom]

what do you think kills them , kidney damage? bladder stones?

how many desert tortoises would you think have been head started since those programs began? as of 2013 irwin alone claimed they hatched 540 ......

is what the folks below claim not true

Hatching success.—We measured nest hatching success during the six years from 2003 to 2008. Predation on eggs and new hatchlings by White-tailed Antelope Squirrels (Ammospermophilus leucurus; in 2004) and on un-emerged hatchlings by native Fire Ants (Solenopsis xyloni; mainly in 2005) reduced the number of observations we could use to evaluate supplemental rain effects on nest hatching success. During four years when nests were not predated, hatching success of clutches laid in pens having only natural rainfall averaged 76.9% (± 10.5, n = 7) and hatching success in pens that received added rain averaged 66.6% (± 12.0, n = 5). These differences are not significant (t = 1.57, df = 10, P = 0.146). The overall mean hatching success was 72.6% (± 11.9, n = 12). Survivorship and body condition o





Survivorship and body condition of yearlings.—Heavy predation on hatchlings (as well as on eggs) by ground squirrels in summer 2004, before rodent-resistant flashing was installed on the enclosures, and predation by the Fire Ants whose population erupted
following the high rainfall in 2004–2005, reduced the number of determinations of annual survivorship we obtained for first-year juveniles. Annual survivorship in nine pens having natural rainfall only, over four years, averaged 89.7% (± 11.7, n = 9), while survivorship in added precipitation pens averaged 90.3% (± 11.6, n = 6). These mean survivorship values do not differ significantly (t = -0.915, df = 13, P = 0.915), and the overall mean was 89.9% (± 11.2, n = 15). Survivorship of just those first-year juveniles in three unwatered pens during the drought year (2006–2007) alone was also high (100%, 100%, and 82%), averaging 94.0% (± 10.4, n = 3). Condition Index values of tortoises were usually highest shortly after hatching, and were significantly lower a year later, especially for those juveniles that were still in their first year sometime during the 16-month drought (Table 1). Juveniles living in pens with natural rainfall only had CI values that were the same as those for juveniles in rain-supplemented pens during four of five years. The exception was the drought year, when CIs were 15% lower in pens without supplemental rain (Table 1). The overall average CI of hatchlings was 0.587 (± 0.038, n = 81). Growth rates of yearlings.—During their first year, tortoises living in pens receiving only natural rainfall added 3% to 7% to their shell length per year when rainfall was at or above average (Table 2). However, during the drought year, tortoises that hatched that year in unwatered pens grew little (average 0.8% increase in MCL/yr), and several individuals actually shrunk. Tortoises living in adjacent rain-supplemented pens grew 2–16 times faster (average 6.5). Even during the record high rainfall year, rain supplementation increased growth rates two-fold



The lack of any significant effect of irrigation on survivorship of juveniles during their first year, especially during the severe drought year, is surprising. Even adult tortoises are known to succumb to drought (Peterson 1994; Berry et al. 2002). Field studies of the water balance of neonate and yearling Desert Tortoises at a head-start facility in the central Mojave Desert (Nagy et al. 1997; Wilson et al. 2001) indicated that a drought year having no available drinking water or green annual plants could be fatal to these young tortoises. Moreover, our observations of the juveniles living in the three unwatered pens during the dry spring and summer of 2007 led us believe they would not live very long. Their CI values had dropped to near or below 0.4, indicating severe dehydration and starvation (Nagy et al., 2002). Most were lethargic and unable (or unwilling) to open their eyes or respond quickly to touch stimuli when encountered at or near their burrow entrances in early morning and evening. Substantial rain showers in early September ended the drought and apparently saved the lives of those first-year juveniles in the unwatered pens. They drank rainwater, recovered reasonably good body condition by mid-September, and had high annual survivorship (94%). Stored yolk may help confer drought resistance on first-year tortoises

I've grown sick of arguing with you about stuff you know nothing about. Do I argue with you over every single detail of turtle keeping in Ohio? This helps no one and confuses people that could be helped by useful, long term, experience based advice for how to keep and raise their hatchlings.

When you have raised many dozens of desert tortoise hatchlings both ways over a period of two or three decades, and watched people around you do it in a myriad of different ways and observing their first hand results, and then consulted with several vet friends who treat these tortoises about what they've seen in their practices, then let's have a conversation about the merits of each way of keeping them. Until then, enjoy reading whatever studies you want, and apply whatever it is you think you are learning to keeping your own animals.

Humans attempting to keep tortoises the way they think they live in the wild has resulted in 1000s of them dying over several decades.

 

[The_Four_Toed_Edward]

Maybe you should take this conversation to a new thread, in the debatable section for example. @mark1

 

[Renee_H]

I think after skimming/reading this argument has come down to raising babies dry vs not dry and how that may or may not lead to hatchling failure syndrome? How about just take a few minutes to view YouTube and or Facebook and look at all the alive but in horrible shape tortoises that are deformed and heavily pyramided and just agree that just because someone’s managed to keep an animal alive doesn’t mean they’ve done that animal or species any justice. I feel that when we make a commitment to take an animal into our care we owe it to that animal to provide for it the best opportunity to thrive and live its best life. Why on earth would anyone keep a hatchling dry when we now understand the benefits of keeping them at high humidity? How is that even debatable? It is so obvious! This is probably one of those times I could have just scrolled on and not commented. But whatever, I’m not perfect. Lol. Totally unrelated but relevant in my brain- one of my kids (now adult) was a micropreemie. Back when she was born and super small the evidence supported feeding drops of food enterally to the immature gut. She developed a severe infection that necessitated removing 98% of her entire small and large intestine. She lives but requires 100% parenteral nutrition. Babies rarely almost never get NEC anymore. We learn, we evolve in our knowledge. If we know a better way to do something why is this even debatable? Educate educate educate don’t raise babies dry. Simple enough yah?

 

[Renee_H]

Side note @Tom have you or do you have plans to publish your data?

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

Maybe you should take this conversation to a new thread, in the debatable section for example. @mark1

Agree, this doesn’t feel appropriate to discuss here given how the thread progressed for the baby

 

[The_Four_Toed_Edward]

Maybe a moderator like @wellington could move the debate to a separate thread on a debatable section, so this one doesn't get hijacked?

 

[mark1]

I think after skimming/reading this argument has come down to raising babies dry vs not dry and how that may or may not lead to hatchling failure syndrome? How about just take a few minutes to view YouTube and or Facebook and look at all the alive but in horrible shape tortoises that are deformed and heavily pyramided and just agree that just because someone’s managed to keep an animal alive doesn’t mean they’ve done that animal or species any justice. I feel that when we make a commitment to take an animal into our care we owe it to that animal to provide for it the best opportunity to thrive and live its best life. Why on earth would anyone keep a hatchling dry when we now understand the benefits of keeping them at high humidity? How is that even debatable? It is so obvious! This is probably one of those times I could have just scrolled on and not commented. But whatever, I’m not perfect. Lol. Totally unrelated but relevant in my brain- one of my kids (now adult) was a micropreemie. Back when she was born and super small the evidence supported feeding drops of food enterally to the immature gut. She developed a severe infection that necessitated removing 98% of her entire small and large intestine. She lives but requires 100% parenteral nutrition. Babies rarely almost never get NEC anymore. We learn, we evolve in our knowledge. If we know a better way to do something why is this even debatable? Educate educate educate don’t raise babies dry. Simple enough yah?

would take more than a "skim" to understand what's being said here........you should try actually reading the papers linked...... no one is recommending raising baby tortoises "dry" not one single paper linked advocates that......... they actually study the difference and affects.?????????