Controversial pet visit ?

[Renee_H]

would take more than a "skim" to understand what's being said here........you should try actually reading the papers linked...... no one is recommending raising baby tortoises "dry" not one single paper linked advocates that......... they actually study the difference and affects.?????????

I can see how it would be taken that way so I apologize for how that came off. What I am saying is, if it’s so obvious then why IS it a question? Everyday we read post after post that states how essential it is that hatchlings *in captivity* require certain and specific care. Then when people find this forum they are immediately bombarded with *new information* about “how what why” and Craig’s list, sanctuaries/rescues/shelters, Facebook, YouTube inexperienced veterinarians are all immediately pointed out as the evidence to support WHY these animals require specific care that even former “experts” don’t know. Research takes TIME I get it. I’m asking if “the proof is in the pudding” why are we questioning it? Then I followed up asking Tom if he(others) have published any studies. Unfortunately even in the human animal world our research often takes decades to catch up in practice. I more or less am thinking out loud here so feel free to disregard.
*we is society/breeders/vets/petstores/care sheets that are mass produced. Basically the info people don’t find until they find this forum. I’m a public health nurse this is how my brain works.

 

[Markw84]

what do you think kills them , kidney damage? bladder stones?

how many desert tortoises would you think have been head started since those programs began? as of 2013 irwin alone claimed they hatched 540 ......

is what the folks below claim not true

Hatching success.—We measured nest hatching success during the six years from 2003 to 2008. Predation on eggs and new hatchlings by White-tailed Antelope Squirrels (Ammospermophilus leucurus; in 2004) and on un-emerged hatchlings by native Fire Ants (Solenopsis xyloni; mainly in 2005) reduced the number of observations we could use to evaluate supplemental rain effects on nest hatching success. During four years when nests were not predated, hatching success of clutches laid in pens having only natural rainfall averaged 76.9% (± 10.5, n = 7) and hatching success in pens that received added rain averaged 66.6% (± 12.0, n = 5). These differences are not significant (t = 1.57, df = 10, P = 0.146). The overall mean hatching success was 72.6% (± 11.9, n = 12). Survivorship and body condition o





Survivorship and body condition of yearlings.—Heavy predation on hatchlings (as well as on eggs) by ground squirrels in summer 2004, before rodent-resistant flashing was installed on the enclosures, and predation by the Fire Ants whose population erupted
following the high rainfall in 2004–2005, reduced the number of determinations of annual survivorship we obtained for first-year juveniles. Annual survivorship in nine pens having natural rainfall only, over four years, averaged 89.7% (± 11.7, n = 9), while survivorship in added precipitation pens averaged 90.3% (± 11.6, n = 6). These mean survivorship values do not differ significantly (t = -0.915, df = 13, P = 0.915), and the overall mean was 89.9% (± 11.2, n = 15). Survivorship of just those first-year juveniles in three unwatered pens during the drought year (2006–2007) alone was also high (100%, 100%, and 82%), averaging 94.0% (± 10.4, n = 3). Condition Index values of tortoises were usually highest shortly after hatching, and were significantly lower a year later, especially for those juveniles that were still in their first year sometime during the 16-month drought (Table 1). Juveniles living in pens with natural rainfall only had CI values that were the same as those for juveniles in rain-supplemented pens during four of five years. The exception was the drought year, when CIs were 15% lower in pens without supplemental rain (Table 1). The overall average CI of hatchlings was 0.587 (± 0.038, n = 81). Growth rates of yearlings.—During their first year, tortoises living in pens receiving only natural rainfall added 3% to 7% to their shell length per year when rainfall was at or above average (Table 2). However, during the drought year, tortoises that hatched that year in unwatered pens grew little (average 0.8% increase in MCL/yr), and several individuals actually shrunk. Tortoises living in adjacent rain-supplemented pens grew 2–16 times faster (average 6.5). Even during the record high rainfall year, rain supplementation increased growth rates two-fold



The lack of any significant effect of irrigation on survivorship of juveniles during their first year, especially during the severe drought year, is surprising. Even adult tortoises are known to succumb to drought (Peterson 1994; Berry et al. 2002). Field studies of the water balance of neonate and yearling Desert Tortoises at a head-start facility in the central Mojave Desert (Nagy et al. 1997; Wilson et al. 2001) indicated that a drought year having no available drinking water or green annual plants could be fatal to these young tortoises. Moreover, our observations of the juveniles living in the three unwatered pens during the dry spring and summer of 2007 led us believe they would not live very long. Their CI values had dropped to near or below 0.4, indicating severe dehydration and starvation (Nagy et al., 2002). Most were lethargic and unable (or unwilling) to open their eyes or respond quickly to touch stimuli when encountered at or near their burrow entrances in early morning and evening. Substantial rain showers in early September ended the drought and apparently saved the lives of those first-year juveniles in the unwatered pens. They drank rainwater, recovered reasonably good body condition by mid-September, and had high annual survivorship (94%). Stored yolk may help confer drought resistance on first-year tortoises

My thoughts are that what kills them is inadequate development of metabolic function. We all seem to believe that a hatchling tortoise is fully developed since it looks so much like a perfect miniature of its parent. I believe they are not fully developed at all and still in a critical stage of developing metabolic function. Bones are certainly only beginning to develop and fill in throughout a lot of the shell area. Organ function is developing and critical hydration and nutrients are essential.

The referenced article is still apples to oranges. This is hatchlings from a nest. Not hatchlings in an incubator, snatched away once free of the egg. In the nest, they are in a very controlled environment. The same environment that allowed egg development to hatching. They normally stay in that nest chamber several days, weeks or even a month after emerging from the egg. The emerge with rainfall and virtual 100% humidity in that chamber. They continue to develop and eat the eggshells in the chamber as well as fecal matter the mother left for them. They remain in a very controlled environment getting stronger and then benefit from the exercise of a rigorous dig to the surface if successful.

The article is also dealing with a very small sample size to draw conclusions A successful nest or maybe two does not account for the unsuccessful nests as well. Over 4 years a sample size of 9 hatchlings in "natural pens" and 6 with added rainfall. Plus they note that some of those juveniles they believed would not live very long. So this study also points to the observation that hatching success does not mean a hatchling that will survive. The study observed hatchling failure!

Tom and I have collaborated for years over this developing our brooder box methods. All trying to give a hatchling the most we can to allow it to develop metabolic function and get the best start possible. 100% humidity. Soaking daily and immediately upon hatching. Its always fun to watch my newly hatched babies immediately upon being place in a soak, dunk their heads and drink. We place the eggshell in the brooder box with the best foods we can offer from the very beginning. We keep them that way until they are processing foods properly as we can see from well formed stools.

 

[mark1]

My thoughts are that what kills them is inadequate development of metabolic function. We all seem to believe that a hatchling tortoise is fully developed since it looks so much like a perfect miniature of its parent. I believe they are not fully developed at all and still in a critical stage of developing metabolic function. Bones are certainly only beginning to develop and fill in throughout a lot of the shell area. Organ function is developing and critical hydration and nutrients are essential.

i don't disagree with any of this, necropsies on tortoises that died after droughts found virtually every organ in their bodies had shrunk, including their brains....... during the the drought in 2006-2007 (0.86" rain) some of the hatchling tortoises actually shrunk, 94% recovered...

Mark,don't take any of this as disrepectful to your experience and common sense, you specifically along with some folks here and not here anymore are the reason i pay attention to this board ....... i'm not sure which study with only 9 tortoises released your refering to? but the edwards one looks to me to be 135 tortoises between 2003-2008, about half rain supplemented and half not....... the ivanpah one consisted of 60 tortoises.......without reading this stuff again , i believe nothing is released in any head start study less than 1yr old. i actually believe you may know some of the people involved?

as far as i can see, everything you advocate is supported in these studies , i cannot see any that support anything called hatchling failure syndrome ...... i could not even venture a guess as to how many thousands of head started tortoises that have been raised by usf&w programs since the inception of that method.....


The lack of any significant effect of irrigation on survivorship of juveniles during their first year, especially during the severe drought year, is surprising.


Ivanpah Valley within the Mojave National Preserve study consisted of 60 tortoises, 2018-2021

We randomly selected 30 of the 48 tortoises from each treatment group to be released (60 tortoises released). Within each of the 3 blocks, we released 10 combo tortoises and 10 indoor‐only tortoises, assigning individuals to separate release points


this one was edwards airforce base 2003-2008

this one looks to have been with 135 tortoises over a 6 yr period

—We measured nest hatching success during the six years from 2003 to 2008. Predation on eggs and new hatchlings by White-tailed Antelope Squirrels (Ammospermophilus leucurus; in 2004) and on un-emerged hatchlings by native Fire Ants (Solenopsis xyloni; mainly in 2005) reduced the number of observations we could use to evaluate supplemental rain effects on nest hatching success. During four years when nests were not predated, hatching success of clutches laid in pens having only natural rainfall averaged 76.9% (± 10.5, n = 7) and hatching success in pens that received added rain averaged 66.6% (± 12.0, n = 5). These differences are not significant (t = 1.57, df = 10, P = 0.146). The overall mean hatching success was 72.6% (± 11.9, n = 12).




We subjected neonate Desert Tortoises (Gopherus agassizii) that hatched inside fenced, predator-resistant field enclosures containing natural vegetation to either a natural rainfall regime or a regime of natural rainfall plus irrigation (supplemental precipitation) over a five-year period, to test the hypothesis that mimicking an above-average rainfall regime in years of average or low natural rainfall will improve rates of survival and growth. We also tested the hypothesis that survivorship of released 1-yr olds will be high, due to a decline in predation susceptibility once the vulnerable nesting and hatchling phases are completed. Survivorship inside the enclosures during the first year of life was high (averaging 90%) in both groups, even during a record low rainfall year, but growth rates were always substantially higher (2 to 16-× greater) in rain-supplemented juveniles. Body condition index (CI) measurements indicated that first-year juveniles without added rain were able to maintain body conditions similar to rain-supplemented juveniles during two average rainfall years, but not during a drought year. Older juveniles without added rain died during the latter part of the 16 mo drought, suggesting that the high drought survivorship of first-year non-supplemented juveniles may be related to the yolk they carried after hatching, along with possible behavioral and physiological differences. Nearly all yearlings that were set free (in autumn) were dead within 6 mo, regardless of whether they had supplemental rain or not during their first year inside enclosures, and regardless of whether they were released near the head-start enclosures or a kilometer away. The main cause of mortality was predation, primarily by ravens. The poor survival of released yearling tortoises and the drought-induced death of nearly all older captive juveniles raised without added precipitation lead us to recommend that rain supplementation and delayed release be incorporated in the protocol for head-starting Desert Tortoises


The lack of any significant effect of irrigation on survivorship of juveniles during their first year, especially during the severe drought year, is surprising. Even adult tortoises are known to succumb to drought (Peterson 1994; Berry et al. 2002). Field studies of the water balance of neonate and yearling Desert Tortoises at a head-start facility in the central Mojave Desert (Nagy et al. 1997; Wilson et al. 2001) indicated that a drought year having no available drinking water or green annual plants could be fatal to these young tortoises. Moreover, our observations of the juveniles living in the three unwatered pens during the dry spring and summer of 2007 led us believe they would not live very long. Their CI values had dropped to near or below 0.4, indicating severe dehydration and starvation (Nagy et al., 2002). Most were lethargic and unable (or unwilling) to open their eyes or respond quickly to touch stimuli when encountered at or near their burrow entrances in early morning and evening. Substantial rain showers in early September ended the drought and apparently saved the lives of those first-year juveniles in the unwatered pens. They drank rainwater, recovered reasonably good body condition by mid-September, and had high annual survivorship (94%). Stored yolk may help confer drought resistance on first-year tortoises (see discussion below)

just an opinion of mine , but i believe most turtles and tortoises in the pet trade die before their "time" ..... i would guess mostly due to disease and husbandry of their current owner ..... my opinion is it would take some extremely poor care to damage a baby tortoise to the point they could not recover ....... disease , plenty of them a baby tortoise are not going to recover from.....


ground hatched and incubator hatched is absolutely a variable...... there are many head start tortoise programs for a variety of turtles and tortoises i know i've seen more than a few that artificially hatched their eggs......
the difference in growth when you extend the active season can be phenomenal in any type of turtle or tortoise.....add to that supplementing water and food , the growth rates are not even close......