Current consensus on humidity

[Redfootguy123]

I don’t see any evidence that the discussion is heated. I think some good points were brought up.

You imply that private keepers aren’t using the scientific method and have less valid observations than these vets you cite. That is likely incorrect when you’re talking to some of the more experienced people on the forum. You will find degreed scientists among those whose experiences you are dismissing, and many of us without a “pedigree” nevertheless share the same manner of scientific thinking and have decades of hands on experience to draw from.

I looked at some of the references you posted and while many of them are quite interesting, the ones I have read so far don’t present any relevant evidence or findings related to airflow needs of tortoises. I would appreciate if you could point us directly to that evidence.

It should be obvious that nobody completely restricts air exchange in indoor enclosures, seeing as how tortoises aren’t suffocating. The need in indoor enclosures is to maintain tropical temperatures and humidity within a box that is inside an air conditioned space. Airflow is limited only to a point where reasonably sized heaters and water evaporation create the proper environment. If we increased air flow, we’d end up with temperature being too low. If we then add more basking lights to raise temperature, we wind up with very low humidity and tortoises that suffer from it.


Steve

I just felt like it was getting heated and wanted to avoid any escalation with Tom.

I’m heading to work at the moment but I’ll grab what each of the articles say specifically later tonight or tomorrow.

Oh yeah it’s definitely obvious no one completely restricts air exchange. I think this whole discussion is on whether a fan assists in control of air exchange and enhances well-being, as well as how indoor vs. outdoor enclosures differ. With a fan you definitely need proper controllers, sensors and heaters as well (although one would hopefully have those regardless). What I’m saying is that it’s all about balance and that balance is more difficult to achieve in indoor enclosures for a variety of reasons, which necessitates a need for more control over conditions.

 

[Redfootguy123]

I don’t see any evidence that the discussion is heated. I think some good points were brought up.

You imply that private keepers aren’t using the scientific method and have less valid observations than these vets you cite. That is likely incorrect when you’re talking to some of the more experienced people on the forum. You will find degreed scientists among those whose experiences you are dismissing, and many of us without a “pedigree” nevertheless share the same manner of scientific thinking and have decades of hands on experience to draw from.

I looked at some of the references you posted and while many of them are quite interesting, the ones I have read so far don’t present any relevant evidence or findings related to airflow needs of tortoises. I would appreciate if you could point us directly to that evidence.

It should be obvious that nobody completely restricts air exchange in indoor enclosures, seeing as how tortoises aren’t suffocating. The need in indoor enclosures is to maintain tropical temperatures and humidity within a box that is inside an air conditioned space. Airflow is limited only to a point where reasonably sized heaters and water evaporation create the proper environment. If we increased air flow, we’d end up with temperature being too low. If we then add more basking lights to raise temperature, we wind up with very low humidity and tortoises that suffer from it.


Steve

Quick follow up since I didn’t address the scientific method response:

I wasn’t saying keepers aren’t scientists and don’t use the scientific method, I was more talking about Tom’s disregard of the research as opinion in this specific situation. Sorry I should’ve been a little more clear.

 

[Tom]

Petsmart cares for and sells thousands of tortoises per year, and has done so for several decades, does that automatically make them the highest standard of care? I have never seen the northern lights, does that mean they don’t exist? Your assertions that experience automatically means you are correct and to be correct one has to have first hand experience are logical fallacies.

These are both absurd examples and completely flawed logic. Pet stores are staffed by 1000s of people and it changes all the time. Most of the people putting hands on the animals are new and turn over constantly. How does that compare to one person experimenting and observing over the course of a lifetime? It doesn't. Northern lights? What? What do you think it is that I am saying does not exist? I'm not saying that something doesn't exist that you have seen. I am asking what you have seen that makes you think this subject you brought up is of concern to tortoise keepers?

While experience does lend you credit, the way you are using your experience (i.e., to imply that it automatically means you are correct) is not an application of it.

Let's use an analogy. You've read some papers about how to build a house on the internet. Now you are arguing with a guy on the internet that has actually been building houses all day every day with his own hands, about how to build houses. I'm not even arguing with you though. I'm just repeatedly asking you if you've run into problems building your own houses, or are these just theoretical house building problems based on what you've read on the internet. I think I have my answer...

“Based on opinions” thought like that surrounding proven scientific bodies of literature, are feelings that I’ve seen arise a lot recently. They are not correct; the scientific method is proven and tested, it is the gold standard. Following scientific literature versus personal opinions is the difference between surviving (personal opinion) and thriving (scientific literature). While healthy skepticism is definitely necessary, simply calling science opinion and discarding it is definitely beyond healthy skepticism.

Here's the problem in real life: The scientists get so much of it wrong. Or they study what happens in the wild, gather what info they can from they can see or otherwise detect, and then draw conclusions. They then report those findings in articles like the ones you've been reading, and either they or the people reading them draw erroneous conclusions about what this data means for captive tortoises in an indoor enclosure or a back yard. They've been proven wrong so many times... The interpretation of that data and attempts to use it frequently results in poor results, to include death of the animal. Go read the care sheets from the scientists on how to raise a desert tortoise, get yourself 12 hatchlings all incubated and started the same way at the same time, follow their advice for half and my advice for the other half and tell me how it works out for you. I already know how it will work out. Ask me how I know what will happen...

You keep saying you’ve never seen adverse respiratory symptoms in tropical tortoises; so you’ve never encountered RI or had to adjust any perimeters in any of your enclosures?

That is correct. When I first started exploring these techniques back in 2008, I made lots of adjustments and did lots of experiments. Many of them were shown as threads here on this forum. All of it led to more humidity and more success. Over the last decade and a half I, and many others here, have further refined the techniques. I set them up to be over 80% humidity, and no lower than 80 degrees at night, and all works great. I've never encountered any respiratory issues or had to adjust enclosure parameters because I set them up right the first time based on decades of experiments and experience.

All animals need proper airflow and fresh air. Some cooler air does not automatically negate the effects of a closed chamber enclosure; what will contribute negatively, is an enclosure that is not properly ventilated and does not have airflow that allows fresh air in and old air out. A fan can assist in this and create more control of humidity and moisture.

The airflow afforded in any closed chamber that I have ever used, from home made ones, to Animal Plastics, to Mark's "Smart Enclosures", has always been adequate to maintain humidity and also give them enough "fresh air" as you call it.

"Some cooler air..." That is too vague. That's like saying you can eat "some cyanide" before it's too much and becomes toxic. Of course there is a balance. A small trickle of room temp air through some reasonable venting is fine. The entire top open, or using a fan to blow dry room air into an enclosure is way too much. This is a matter of volume. Volume of incoming air, and the volume of air in the closed chamber that the outside air is coming into. Fans are not needed in any normal closed chamber to maintain healthy air. Surely you don't want to debate that fact given the thousands of examples right here on this forum? Do you?

This discussion seems to be getting rather heated. I won’t be engaging any further so as to avoid rising tempers or the need for moderator action. I suggest you examine how open you are to scientific literature and science itself. The vets and researchers specializing in reptiles and tortoises have also been working with them for decades, and have specialized training and education that makes them qualified; although the experiences of breeders and non vets is definitely important, at the end of the day, the vet specialists are more often correct and have more experience with disease and dysfunction, as well as its causes.

You are throwing around assertions because you read a paper on the internet. You have no idea what you are talking about, and in most cases, neither do the vets or scientists whose papers you are reading. They've gotten it wrong for decades and they don't even know it. We see cases of reptile vets mismanaging tortoises here constantly. So much so that we have to warn new members what to be careful of when going to see a tortoise vet. You are off base. Far off base and don't have any way to even recognize this. Vets are far behind the people on this forum. Years behind in most cases, with rare exception. You've bet all your money on the wrong horse my man. Don't shoot the messenger.

 

[Maggie3fan]

I realize this conversation is far beyond my experience...but I have kept Layla, the Refoot at 85 to 90 degrees with generally 95 to ?% humidity...I have been keeping a yearling Sulcata 80 to 85 degrees with 90% humidity with no evidence of URTI or any respiratory problems..Layla lives in a greenhouse with constant temp and humidity,

the Sulcata who I thought might get a respiratory problems with the higher humidity lives in a closed chamber, just shows the smooth growth I was looking for with no sign of illness. And that is my personal experience...No scientific articles, just my personal experience...

 

[Redfootguy123]

These are both absurd examples and completely flawed logic. Pet stores are staffed by 1000s of people and it changes all the time. Most of the people putting hands on the animals are new and turn over constantly. How does that compare to one person experimenting and observing over the course of a lifetime? It doesn't. Northern lights? What? What do you think it is that I am saying does not exist? I'm not saying that something doesn't exist that you have seen. I am asking what you have seen that makes you think this subject you brought up is of concern to tortoise keepers?


Let's use an analogy. You've read some papers about how to build a house on the internet. Now you are arguing with a guy on the internet that has actually been building houses all day every day with his own hands, about how to build houses. I'm not even arguing with you though. I'm just repeatedly asking you if you've run into problems building your own houses, or are these just theoretical house building problems based on what you've read on the internet. I think I have my answer...



Here's the problem in real life: The scientists get so much of it wrong. Or they study what happens in the wild, gather what info they can from they can see or otherwise detect, and then draw conclusions. They then report those findings in articles like the ones you've been reading, and either they or the people reading them draw erroneous conclusions about what this data means for captive tortoises in an indoor enclosure or a back yard. They've been proven wrong so many times... The interpretation of that data and attempts to use it frequently results in poor results, to include death of the animal. Go read the care sheets from the scientists on how to raise a desert tortoise, get yourself 12 hatchlings all incubated and started the same way at the same time, follow their advice for half and my advice for the other half and tell me how it works out for you. I already know how it will work out. Ask me how I know what will happen...


That is correct. When I first started exploring these techniques back in 2008, I made lots of adjustments and did lots of experiments. Many of them were shown as threads here on this forum. All of it led to more humidity and more success. Over the last decade and a half I, and many others here, have further refined the techniques. I set them up to be over 80% humidity, and no lower than 80 degrees at night, and all works great. I've never encountered any respiratory issues or had to adjust enclosure parameters because I set them up right the first time based on decades of experiments and experience.


The airflow afforded in any closed chamber that I have ever used, from home made ones, to Animal Plastics, to Mark's "Smart Enclosures", has always been adequate to maintain humidity and also give them enough "fresh air" as you call it.

"Some cooler air..." That is too vague. That's like saying you can eat "some cyanide" before it's too much and becomes toxic. Of course there is a balance. A small trickle of room temp air through some reasonable venting is fine. The entire top open, or using a fan to blow dry room air into an enclosure is way too much. This is a matter of volume. Volume of incoming air, and the volume of air in the closed chamber that the outside air is coming into. Fans are not needed in any normal closed chamber to maintain healthy air. Surely you don't want to debate that fact given the thousands of examples right here on this forum? Do you?


You are throwing around assertions because you read a paper on the internet. You have no idea what you are talking about, and in most cases, neither do the vets or scientists whose papers you are reading. They've gotten it wrong for decades and they don't even know it. We see cases of reptile vets mismanaging tortoises here constantly. So much so that we have to warn new members what to be careful of when going to see a tortoise vet. You are off base. Far off base and don't have any way to even recognize this. Vets are far behind the people on this forum. Years behind in most cases, with rare exception. You've bet all your money on the wrong horse my man. Don't shoot the messenger.

My information comes from a reputable vet that specializes in exotic animals and reptiles, and has expert knowledge on redfoots, as well as other with specializations in exotic reptiles who have confirmed the knowledge. The papers were backing up the knowledge and showing that it is heavily researched. To say that someone like that is wrong (as well as all of their colleagues) when they know so much more than any shady breeder ever will is ignorant and shows just how far behind you truly are.

& it’s not an absurd example; for every one shady vet I’ve met, there have been 10 shady breeders that spout what you’re saying, so at this point, it seems as though breeders with “experience” have much the same credibility as petsmart managers with “experience”

I’m asking a guy about how to build a house and he’s telling me about building techniques from the 50’s (if we’re using your example)

I’m out of here. If everyone else on this forum is as shady, shameless, stubborn, and willing to do harm as you are, then the community is less reputable than I thought and I want nothing to do with it when shady breeders are championed over the medical professionals (specialists) that know more than they ever will.

 

[turtlesteve]

Honestly, it’s best if you don’t storm off and leave, because:

1. It really will create the impression that you only made this thread to pick a fight and that you are the one being hot headed here. If you want to dispute Tom’s response please do it in a professional manner.

2. The truth is, many breeders and many veterinarians both are quite ignorant of proper tortoise care. Solving this problem will require people on both sides working together. If you can’t come into a community where people disagree and make contributions, then you become part of the problem.

The frustration I sense from Tom exists because a huge number of people including both private breeders and scientists/veterinarians have historically recommended low humidity for tortoise hatchlings. Those recommendations are rooted in misunderstanding and usually have disastrous results. So a lot of us are really frustrated with having to constantly defend newer, more successful methods (using higher humidity) against this old ignorance.

This seems irrelevant to your points about achieving both air flow and keeping humidity below 100%. Nobody here is claiming that 80-90% humidity won’t work fine. The debate is simply over how much air flow is needed, and whether high air flow and high humidity can be maintained together with practical equipment.

 

[Tom]

My information comes from a reputable vet that specializes in exotic animals and reptiles, and has expert knowledge on redfoots, as well as other with specializations in exotic reptiles who have confirmed the knowledge. The papers were backing up the knowledge and showing that it is heavily researched. To say that someone like that is wrong (as well as all of their colleagues) when they know so much more than any shady breeder ever will is ignorant and shows just how far behind you truly are.

& it’s not an absurd example; for every one shady vet I’ve met, there have been 10 shady breeders that spout what you’re saying, so at this point, it seems as though breeders with “experience” have much the same credibility as petsmart managers with “experience”

I’m asking a guy about how to build a house and he’s telling me about building techniques from the 50’s (if we’re using your example)

I’m out of here. If everyone else on this forum is as shady, shameless, stubborn, and willing to do harm as you are, then the community is less reputable than I thought and I want nothing to do with it when shady breeders are championed over the medical professionals (specialists) that know more than they ever will.

What is your information exactly? What is it you are even trying to share in this thread? There is not a problem in closed chambers with no fan blowing, and no one is experiencing respiratory issues, so what is the point of your thread?

Who is a shady breeder here? There is no one here that I know that comes anywhere near that description. All the breeders that I know of here on this forum are quite reputable and doing good work. If you are referring to me, then you are sadly mistaken and have no idea who you are talking to. While I do breed some tortoises now and then, I am not a tortoise breeder. That is not my profession and I do what I do as a hobby on the side. Don't know why you decided to label me with that term. I know some tortoise breeders out in the world that really don't do all that great of a job, but that is not me or anyone who is an active member here.

I've worked with vets for decades. I know what vets know and what they don't know. My wife was a vet tech for 13 years and then a vet consultant for another 15 after she got her masters degree. My vet friends share my table for meals and they call me for tortoise husbandry advice, while I call them for tortoise medical advice. Vets know vet stuff. That is what they learn in vet school. Tortoise keepers know tortoise keeper stuff. That is what we learn from the school of hard knocks. You don't seem to grasp that there is a huge difference between the two. A vet doesn't know the best ways to hatch and raise baby tortoises any more than I know how to spay a cat.

You think vets know more because of research? Almost everyone that comes here has done "research" on how to care for their new tortoise, and they all have the same problem: Almost all of the info out there is wrong. Vets learn the same wrong care info from the same wrong sources as everyone else. And then they pass it on. This is how it has been for decades, and this forum is finally breaking through some of that. You are certainly not the first person to come here thinking vets are the bees knees when it comes to tortoise care knowledge. I've had this argument many times before. Here is the thing: You will learn that what I am saying is true, one way or the other. Doesn't matter what you think of me or my information. If you follow the usual tortoise care advice out there, you are going to get the usual result. There are many threads on here that demonstrate how ignorant some vets are when it comes to tortoises.

You think my info is old and outdated? Techniques from the 50's you say? This one statement tells everyone reading that you have misjudged this situation. Me and other members of this forum are literally the people who revolutionized tortoise care about 15 yeas ago. Prior to us and our efforts, it was all dry and dehydrated all the time. I was called names far worse than what you've called me, insulted, threatened with violence, and told I was harming tortoises. Now 15 years later, almost everyone has realized that baby tortoises need water ad humidity, and the techniques that I pioneered here are now used all over the globe with the same success that everyone here has enjoyed. The work is nowhere near completed, and YOU are exactly the kind of person that is the problem. You don't like to be told you are wrong. You did lots of "research", and now you are finding out that the info you spent so much time on is not as good as it seemed. It frustrates you to the point of closing your mind to the info because you don't like the messenger. Well, that is certainly your prerogative, but burying your head in the proverbial sand and calling me shady is not going to help you learn more about tortoise husbandry, and the tortoises in your care will suffer for your pride and ignorance. As I said in the last paragraph, one way or another, you will learn what I am telling you is true eventually. How long that takes just depends on how stubborn you are. Believe me, I recognize stubborn, because I'm stubborn too.

I’m out of here. If everyone else on this forum is as shady, shameless, stubborn, and willing to do harm as you are, then the community is less reputable than I thought and I want nothing to do with it when shady breeders are championed over the medical professionals (specialists) that know more than they ever will.

Shady I am not. I sleep with a clear conscience at night.

Shameless? Well, I suppose that is accurate. I've devoted my life to figuring out what was wrong with the tortoise care advice of the past, what is right, and why. Few people have done more to help tortoises, make them healthier, and help them to survive than I have. I don't have anything to be ashamed of. Quite the opposite. I'm quite happy with what has been accomplished here. So yes, I am shameless. I am without shame. Nothing for me to be ashamed about.

Stubborn? Yes. Already admitted to that.

Willing to do harm? That's laughable. Again, I say, you've clearly misread what happens here on a daily basis and have no idea what you are talking about if that is what you really think.

No one is championing any shady breeders at all here. Not ever. We publicly call them out and tell people not to buy from them. We have a whole vendor review section where the shady ones are named and the facts of what happened are shared so that other people know who to avoid when it comes time to purchase.

You need to learn the difference between someone who knows and has studied medicine, and someone who knows and has studied husbandry. Knowing how to do surgery is not the same thing as knowing how to raise a tortoise. There is no semester on tortoise husbandry in vet school and even if there was, it would probably be the same wrong info that has been circulating for decades. You've been here since 2021. You haven't posted much, but in all that time, you haven't figured out that the people on this forum are at the forefront of tortoise knowledge and improving tortoise care? You stumbled into the best tortoise care knowledge in the world and your interpretation of it all is that I'm a "shady breeder", and that vets who have not done what I have done or seen what I have seen are somehow omnipotent geniuses? Astounding. Incredible. No one, including me, wants you to leave. It would be nice if you stopped the insults. I'm not insulting you, in case you haven't noticed. We are here to help. If you leave, we haven't helped you or your tortoises, and helping tortoises is our goal.

 

[Tom]

Honestly, it’s best if you don’t storm off and leave, because:

1. It really will create the impression that you only made this thread to pick a fight and that you are the one being hot headed here. If you want to dispute Tom’s response please do it in a professional manner.

2. The truth is, many breeders and many veterinarians both are quite ignorant of proper tortoise care. Solving this problem will require people on both sides working together. If you can’t come into a community where people disagree and make contributions, then you become part of the problem.

The frustration I sense from Tom exists because a huge number of people including both private breeders and scientists/veterinarians have historically recommended low humidity for tortoise hatchlings. Those recommendations are rooted in misunderstanding and usually have disastrous results. So a lot of us are really frustrated with having to constantly defend newer, more successful methods (using higher humidity) against this old ignorance.

This seems irrelevant to your points about achieving both air flow and keeping humidity below 100%. Nobody here is claiming that 80-90% humidity won’t work fine. The debate is simply over how much air flow is needed, and whether high air flow and high humidity can be maintained together with practical equipment.

Well said Steve. Thank you for the clarity and maturity.

My reason for questioning the OP is because he seems to be indicating that there is some problem based on the scientific papers that he has read, and I am trying to get him to explain what problems he has personally encountered so that we may all learn if there is some problem that we are not aware of. I don't see the problem he is trying to point out, and it appears that he hasn't seen it either, but a vet somewhere wrote a paper talking about this supposed problem that none of us who are keeping tortoises in closed chambers have actually seen.

 

[Alex and the Redfoot]

OP has rightfully risen a question: are there adjustments to husbandry for long-term housing of adult redfoots, what parameters should we maintain and are there known issues/cases of illness caused by limited airdlow in closed chambers?

His research (scientific papers, veterinary guides etc.) led him to the conclusion that stale, very humid air can be unsafe.

I'm interested to see some measurements of air quality in closed chambers (CO2, spores, dust particles come to mind). And some assessments of counter measures (live plants, forced or passive ventilation and air filtering, rainfall systems/rinsing, proper gradients to avoid hitting dew point etc). Also, I wonder if there is some data on substrates (is there a problem with ammonia build up, growing bacterial and fungal colonies etc.).