Designer Colors

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Jacqui

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What do you feel about the future tortoises being breed not for colorings they naturally would have, but more eye pleasing ones? Or crossing different types together like Maps and Sliders? Would you like a Star, that is red, orange, or bright yellow with the dark black markings? How about a red Russian anybody?
 

egyptiandan

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Not sure if you can get a tortoise in another color Jacqui, there are though plenty of people that are breeding to enhance or intensify the colors they already have.
Like Douglas breeding for Stars with more rays. I could see that getting to the point of an all yellow Star.
Terry breeds for color in his Redfoots. :D
There are now albino, hypomelanistic and leusistic tortoise out there, with people trying to breed those.

Me on the other hand :cool: I could care less about color. It's the species or subspecies that matters to me. One of my favorite tortoises, the Chaco tortoise, is one of the least colorful tortoises out there.
Give me the ugliest Burmese Star tortoise pair or Radiated pair and I'd be a happy camper. Just the chance to breed those species would do it for me. :D

Danny
 

wayne.bob

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i agree entirely with you Danny. i also think that someone in the future will genetically alter torts to have different colors. i think it will be awhile before that happens but they have already made Mice that glow in the dark in Japan. its only a matter of time before torts start glowing as well.
 

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wayne.bob said:
i agree entirely with you Danny. i also think that someone in the future will genetically alter torts to have different colors. i think it will be awhile before that happens but they have already made Mice that glow in the dark in Japan. its only a matter of time before torts start glowing as well.

You mean like the guy that breeds water turtles with no eyes or two heads (on purpose)! I think its wrong. Its done strictly for the money. And he sells them to anyone who can come up with the bucks, not even caring what kind of treatment the turtle will get in his new home. However, spending that much money on a two headed turtle they probably would take care of their investment. Who knows. My opinion is, if its to the animal's detriment, its wrong.

Yvonne
 

chelonologist

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My favorite animals are those that display the most beautiful or striking markings/coloration of the natural form, such as a radiated tortoise with striking profusion of yellow rays. Even among snakes, which have produced lots of mutations that breeders call 'morphs' or 'phases' or what have you, I prefer the natural forms the best. For example, I have two Honduran milk snakes that display the natural form (which I LOVE), but I'm not really at all attracted to the tangerines or hypos or whatever else is out there.

Just give me the best example of the wild form and I'm happy :)
 

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What about Bull Dogs? Man made, have to be artificially inseminated and most have to have cesareans.. Lots of health issues, very expensive to buy and care for, short life spans for the most part. Very heat senistive...but they are cool dogs..
 

Jacqui

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How about if we bred Sulcatas that only grew to Redfoot size? Redfoots the size of Russians?


I think someday both the colors and size things (and more) will happen. The same as with the snakes (and other animals) currently, main difference is the amount of time that has to be invested because of slow growth to breeding maturity.

I have no trouble with the intensifying of colors and such, that still keeps them in their basic natural state. Just would hate losing what makes each of these animals special and unique in their world just to make them more visually appealing to the public.
 

egyptiandan

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Not sure what you mean Jacqui by the color thing in snakes. There isn't a single snake that I can think of thats a different color than what can occur naturally in the species.
The only way to get another color into a species is to breed it to another species, which is quite possible. Take red factor Canarys, red is never found in a canary. So breeders took another species of finch (not sure which on off the top of my head), with red, and bred it to a canary. So than they had red birds with a canarys song.
Not sure how this would affect the fertility of the hybrid tortoise, as I don't think anyone has bred 2 hybrids together. I have though seen someone breeding a Marginated/Greek hybrid to a Marginated and getting fertile eggs and babies. They still have the characteristics of both species.
On to the size thing, it is probably possible to get dwarfs of both those species. But like any other species that produces dwarfs, it doesn't change the size of babies or eggs. So a dwarf Redfoot would have the same size eggs that a normal size Redfoot would. That would cause soooooooooooooooooo many problems and I can think the experiment wouldn't go far with your females dying from being unable to pass eggs.
These thing are cool to think about, but in the real world highly unlikely to come about. Unless someone wants to do some gene splicing. :D

Danny
 

elegans

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emysemys said:
wayne.bob said:
i agree entirely with you Danny. i also think that someone in the future will genetically alter torts to have different colors. i think it will be awhile before that happens but they have already made Mice that glow in the dark in Japan. its only a matter of time before torts start glowing as well.

You mean like the guy that breeds water turtles with no eyes or two heads (on purpose)! I think its wrong. Its done strictly for the money. And he sells them to anyone who can come up with the bucks, not even caring what kind of treatment the turtle will get in his new home. However, spending that much money on a two headed turtle they probably would take care of their investment. Who knows. My opinion is, if its to the animal's detriment, its wrong.

Yvonne


I just came back from visiting a turtle farm today here in Florida. The person probably produces close to half of the native turtles produced in the state, and I can tell you for a fact that he does not ever try to breed for two headed or no eyed turtles. They do happen when you hatch out many hundreds of thousands of turtles. There is no intent on the part of the breeder for those particular mutants, just randomness. Your statement is almost like saying that Baronum & Bailey had a breeding plan for "dwarfism" which they certainly did not. Not to say that they were not more than happy to make a buck off of one that could work in the show. Anyone who has ever bred anything, plant or animal; had a purpose to do so. Usually this did involve the concept of improvement. Cabbage, cauliflower, broccoli, Brussels sprouts, kale and many others are exactly the same plant bred and selected for different taste, texture etc. As far as truly "genetically" altering tortoises, it is not likely. Very little is known of any genes in these animals or how to manipulate them. The cost to learn about these genes is extraordinary! Hybrids have been made between a few different species, but not many with success. As far a color mutations goes, so what all we work with is what nature gives us. I did not ever expect to hatch out a lavender albino redfoot. But why not enjoy an incredibly beautiful animal. Douglas Beard / Flora & Fauna
 

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To spin-off of what Doug said:

Although I haven't had quite the opportunity to select the "breed-stock" that Doug has.. 'we' both have chosen the breeders that we have.. that must have the 'gene-pool' to produce the colors that they produce. After speaking with Doug.. we are both waiting for what looks like another 3-4 years minimum before we can really "breed for color" as some suggest.

Plants and mammals [ and humans for that matter ] can be 'gene-manipulated'. Snakes can be "cross-bred" to some extent.. which takes what - 2 years or less?

Tortoises [ as I agree with Doug ] are a 12 year deal!

NERD
 

Minotaur

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The only thing I dislike about breeding specifically for genetic mutations and novel coloration is the build-up of deleterious recessive alleles in the animals' genome. Many breeders, especially those of the more common reptiles such as leopard geckos and ball pythons, continuously inbreed animals with unique colorations and then breed them to other inbred animals with strange colorations, leading to all the crazy designer colors like creamsicle, caramel, snowflake, blizzard, etc. (This means that each phenotype's linked genotype carries it's own deleterious alleles, so when you breed several of these phenotypes together, you start to get more and more inviable animals). The problem with this is that instead of just having a small percentage of deformed or inviable animals you start producing many, many malformed individuals. The number of leopard gecko "culls" that are shipped to the zoo as feeders from just one person who breeds for these designer traits is huge - we receive around 300-400 geckos with crooked spines, no eyeballs, extra limbs, internal organ problems, etc. every month or so. It's because of this that I question the ethics of breeding for these designer colors.

@ Danny - it is true that the [genes] for all the color combinations seen in snakes today occur naturally, but in nature animals who have these alleles don't usually survive, and if they do survive long enough to breed, almost certainly never come across another genetic anomaly to breed with to create some of the crazy designer colors seen on the market today (therefore even if all the genes occur naturally, the genotype combinations responsible for the new phenotypes does not). So you can create new color morphs within a species without crossing to another species, you simply have to combine novel genotypes that would never be combined in the wild. Hope that makes sense.
 

Jacqui

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Minotaur, thank you for saying very clearly what I had in mind with the entire thing when I used snakes as a for instance...and actually what Laura did when bringing up the bulldog.

Nerd I agree with the comment on how long it would take, but looking at humane nature and seeing how much money can be made by creating these new colors, I think somebody will be doing it.

Douglas I agree, that lavender should be appreciated. I doubt your planning to keep breeding it to siblings for several generations are you?

Do we take something away from an animal, be it snake, tortoise, whatever, if what we do in breeding it (such as changing it's colors) would make this animal unable to survive in the wild as a snake, tort or whatever?

Isn't it -EJ who is working with a smaller type of redfoot? (Nudge -EJ hey we are having debates where are you???lol)
 

egyptiandan

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Ed is working with Cherryhead Redfoots Jacqui, which are a bit smaller than other types of Redfoots.

I understand exactly what your saying Ken. :D I still don't see any "new colors" popping up in say ball pythons. Most of the time it's taking away a color that makes the morphs, to either brighten or mute the colors. I haven't seen any red ball pythons :p

The one thing I can think of that really fits this thread, is the few scaleless snakes that have been born (mostly watersnakes). There is at least one breeder trying to find out if it's something you can breed for. Now thats a radical enough design change to make it impossible for these animals to survive in the wild.

Danny
 

elegans

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Actually Minotaur is not that very clear or well thought out. The Bulldog is a much better example if you want to make one. A number of other dog breeds also fall into that category in my eyes. If you can't reproduce naturally then your doomed. More than a couple of dog breeds are all born via C section. this is not the case with any reptiles. And 300-400 geckos a month from a place that produces over 100,000 a year, no big deal. I would also ask where you came up with the idea that a color or pattern mutation also carries with it other deleterious alleles? I have produced as many deformed animals from normal, not line bred animals as "designer morphs." Inbreeding does have its own problems; however if you are willing to cull bad offspring you cannot only breed for the traits that you want, but also breed out flaws. Nature kills most of what it makes, only the strongest or luckiest survive. So I do agree that greed can encourage people to save weak animals that should just be put down but that does not make line breeding a bad thing. I have used line breeding to establish a trait, then outcross for diversities sake. Almost all island species are completely inbred with no ill effects. Just my 2 cents Douglas
 

elegans

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egyptiandan said:
Ed is working with Cherryhead Redfoots Jacqui, which are a bit smaller than other types of Redfoots.

I understand exactly what your saying Ken. :D I still don't see any "new colors" popping up in say ball pythons. Most of the time it's taking away a color that makes the morphs, to either brighten or mute the colors. I haven't seen any red ball pythons :p

The one thing I can think of that really fits this thread, is the few scaleless snakes that have been born (mostly watersnakes). There is at least one breeder trying to find out if it's something you can breed for. Now thats a radical enough design change to make it impossible for these animals to survive in the wild.

Danny
There have also been scaleless albino western diamondback rattlesnakes, scaleless ball pythons and now scaleless bearded dragons. I know for a fact that the scaleless rattlesnakes are very weak animals and a real pain in the *** to keep. Douglas
 

Jacqui

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I thought that even with most island animals, some do end up, because of storms, ect.., traveling among islands and thus changing a little the gene pool?

Nobody said that line breeding is a bad thing, in and of itself. Actually it's a good thing. It becomes bad when it's continually done and the person doing it, only is fixated on one area (such as color) and ignores any weaknesses that may happen. Like the royal families who bred only to their line and ended up with bleeding troubles. Somebody only concerned with money won't be culling his flaws, those will be sold to others so they can breed them too.


Danny, guess I was wrong, I thought Ed was working on something other then "normal" Cherries.
 

Jacqui

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elegans said:
There have also been scaleless albino western diamondback rattlesnakes, scaleless ball pythons and now scaleless bearded dragons. I know for a fact that the scaleless rattlesnakes are very weak animals and a real pain in the *** to keep. Douglas

So what about the scaleless rattlesnakes makes them weak or maybe I need to ask, weak in what way?
 

elegans

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They do indeed seem to have some other genes that are carried with the scaleless trait that make them weak and sickly. I do not know anyone that has been able to keep them alive for more than a few years. Maybe a multi generational outbreeding project could fix that? I don't know? Not enough interest, money and way to much risk for most peoples taste though. LOL Douglas


Reread this and you can see where there are many flaws in the theory.

The only thing I dislike about breeding specifically for genetic mutations and novel coloration is the build-up of deleterious recessive alleles in the animals' genome. Many breeders, especially those of the more common reptiles such as leopard geckos and ball pythons, continuously inbreed animals with unique colorations and then breed them to other inbred animals with strange colorations, leading to all the crazy designer colors like creamsicle, caramel, snowflake, blizzard, etc. (This means that each phenotype's linked genotype carries it's own deleterious alleles, so when you breed several of these phenotypes together, you start to get more and more inviable animals). The problem with this is that instead of just having a small percentage of deformed or inviable animals you start producing many, many malformed individuals.


As a side note ball pythons are only recently bred in captivity with any frequency I suspect that Minotaur is relatively new at this whole reptile hobby. When I started working seriously with ball pythons in 1992 there were probably less than 100 clutches a year produced in the USA.
 

Minotaur

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If you could point out the flaws instead of just saying there are flaws, I would be interested in hearing it. I'm fine with criticism, but saying "No, that stuff is wrong" without pointing out why is not a valid critique. You seem to have some experience, and I would be interested in hearing a serious critique from you.

It is a fact that breeding a group of animals who are more closely related will lead to more inviable hatchlings because it increases homozygosity. I didn't say the color pattern carries deleterious alleles, but in inbreeding animals you form gene complexes (groups of genes which are typically passed together) and due to higher number of deleterious alleles from INBREEDING it becomes far more likely that the gene complex which contains the genetics responsible for new colors will also contain those deleterious alleles. Just as certain breeds of dogs come with their own breed-specific problems (hip-dysplasia in American Cocker Spaniels, or disc disease in Dachshunds). Culling does not "breed out" flaws, because flaws are almost always recessive traits - you would have to continuously breed until you found a pair that was homozygous for the non-deleterious allele, which is a bit more involved than simply culling. I'm not saying you will see a gigantic leap in inviable hatchlings, but there will definitely be more. The point of this conversation is whether a new or popular trait is worth any increase in the number of inviable hatchlings.

If all breeders linebred for traits there would be no ethical issue, as animals with undesirable traits (and carriers) wouldn't be allowed to breed - in fact, my argument can't even be applied to linebreeding - however, the market is not being flooded with pedigreed, linebred individuals, it's being flooding with inbred individuals because for the people who are in the hobby just to turn a buck, it is cheaper and easier to simply buy a few snakes and inbreed them to create your stock while simultaneously creating a ridiculous number of inviables which are still bred, than it is find unrelated individuals and breed for specific traits AND non-deleterious alleles.

Also, I'm not sure why the fact that balls weren't widely bred in captivity until recently makes any difference. If anything it shows that inbreeding was most likely used to increase homozygosity in order to produce the new morphs so quickly.

As an aside, I realize that some of the colors I randomly listed in the first post are actually intergrades and such, I just typed a few names I remembered.
 

elegans

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Call me if you want to really figure this out. It is not that complicated! You are so far off the mark that it hardly makes this post worth doing. You were the person that brought up Ball Pythons and now you don't know how it occured? I do. Stop just making up stuff if you don't know what you are talking about. I respect everyone on this site; but a person with 6 reptiles, is going to explain to me what?

" Also, I'm not sure why the fact that balls weren't widely bred in captivity until recently makes any difference. If anything it shows that inbreeding was most likely used to increase homozygosity in order to produce the new morphs so quickly"

So take some time to find out how wrong you are. I could just make up stuff with real background info. How helpfull would that be. How long have you been keeping reptiles? Best wishes Douglas Beard 305-246-3129
 
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