Designer Colors

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Minotaur

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Douglas man, this is a public debate about the ethics of breeding designer colors, so if you have something to add, please do it in the forums (that is the point of this topic after all). You've posted three responses to me stating that I'm wrong and that it isn't very complicated, so by all means share the information!

The information I've laid out in my previous posts is what you'd get with a few semesters of college genetics, I'm not making things up. If for some reason ball pythons are above the statistical laws of genetics regarding breeding for homozygosity and gene fixation then I cede the argument. If you have compelling evidence that there is no increase in the number of pythons born homozygous for recessive deleterious alleles when inbred/linebred, then do share it.

Also, there is no need for ad hominem attacks - the number of reptiles I keep and the length I've kept them have absolutely nothing to do with my knowledge of genetics. My genetics professors weren't animal keepers but they still knew the science of genetics. On the other end of the spectrum there are many people who own and breed oodles of animals and have absolutely no knowledge of genetics.

You seem to have taken personal offense to my posts (which is probably to be expected in a debate forum) but if you reread, you'll see that I have not attacked you at all. On the flip-side, you've insulted me in every post you've made responding to me ("Actually Minotaur is not that very clear or well thought out.", "...I suspect that Minotaur is relatively new at this whole reptile hobby...", and the third post, where it is implied that I'm inexperienced and a liar.) I'm not sure why this is, but once again, I'm welcoming you to share your knowledge (with myself and all the other debaters), as that is what this debate forum is all about. A debate is not about winning, it's about comparing viewpoints and learning - if you provide a good argument and it turns out that by some flaw in my education or logic I am wrong then I will gladly cede the point as that is the true spirit of scientific inquiry.

Anyhow, I have no hard feelings man. I can see that you are passionate about this topic, and that is worthy of respect. Have a good one man, I look forward to your response.

Ken
 

elegans

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I am so sorry, maybe I missed something. What possible conflicts could there be breeding designer colors? They are after all the same animals. We know how to breed many species to the point that they would not be "endangered" but that would not be good for pollitics. I also have more than a few semesters of college genetics, I am able to do 1 out of 128 poss almost instantly. No more said. One of the best lines ever is that there are Lies, Damn Lies and Statistics!
 

Redfoot NERD

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Ken could it be that Doug is saying.. 'The only "book" I want to hear you reference is your own that you've kept from years of breeding experience.' ??

Yep.. "stats" should be enough proof. Of course the "scientists" have to Q? those too! Too bad common sense isn't.

GRIN.gif
Terry K
 

Minotaur

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Terry, I understand what you're saying, but there is a wealth of scientific papers already in existence on the topic inbreeding/linebreeding and it's effect on homozygosity, which would make any anecdotal evidence of my own (if it even existed) a bit superfluous. I think it should be obvious that the real point of saying that "The only book I want to hear you reference is your own" is to bypass a body of scientific knowledge acquired over the years by many researchers by "moving the goalposts" and claiming that only personal experience matters. I could say something about standing upon the shoulders of giants, but I wouldn't want the same fallacy appearing twice on the same page. :p

Doug, I'm not sure what you are saying in your previous post about breeding species that are endangered and politics or what it's applicability to the topic is. Also, the "conflict" in breeding designer colors has been dragged out all over this topic, and it is that you are breeding for homozygosity which inevitably increases the number of expressed deleterious alleles by some small percent. Expression of a deleterious allele does not have to mean the animal dies or is lame, it could be as small as a cow being born sans her tail tassel. That's all this topic is about. Also, the use of an old saying does not make a point, it's an argument fallacy known as Cliche Thinking - statistics are very relative when talking about genetics.
 

elegans

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I would love to read the wealth of scientific papers about reptilian inbreeding/linebreeding and it's effect on homozygosity. But I doubt that many have been written. Most DNA knowledge that we have is from plants, insects or mammals that have very short generational turnarounds. In the time that it would take to do a three generation study of tortoises, I could do at least 72 generations of mice for example. Fruit flies by a factor of 5 to 6. All breeding is done for some reason, usually with the intent of the breeder to improve something. It could be color, size, feed conversion or whatever. By your standard we should not do any of this? Right? Even if by your statement "breeding for homozygosity which inevitably increases the number of expressed deleterious alleles by some small percent" I can live with that. I would still challenge you to prove that you are right though. The reason you don't get 300 deformed normal leopard geckos is because no one breeds them in any numbers. Same goes for corns and ball Pythons. Back to my culling philosophy. Breeding is to plants and animals is what engineering is to products. So far that has worked out pretty well for us. Organisms in the wild keep mutating all the time and nature figures out which ones are best suited to survive and reproduce in the wild. But since that is off the table and these are captive animals it really does not matter. If breeding white Tigers and putting them on display in Zoo's brings up attendance and teaches people to care about the world around them, bring on the white Tigers. Best wishes Douglas
 

Minotaur

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I think you've misunderstood me Douglas - while there is some token increase in the number of expressed deleterious alleles I am not "against" breeding for traits through linebreeding/inbreeding. It's sad that it does create a few more unfit individuals, but I think the practice is interesting and fruitful. A world with only one type of dog/horse/python/whatever would be boring. I am not against breeding for unique traits, I was simply pointing out the downside, since this is an ethics debate I wanted the negative to be clearly defined (as there seemed to be some question as to what the ethical dilemma was in the beginning of the thread). Since most people already appreciate the upside of breeding for specific traits I didn't even mention it, but you are correct, the positive results are astounding - almost all vegetables and fruits have been bred and manipulated for yield, flavor, disease resistance, etc. which is great for mankind. There have also been great uses for farm animals bred for specific uses, like pulling plows, rounding up cattle, laying more eggs, producing more breast meat and on and on. Then in the pet trade, selective breeding has created oodles of variations of animals with different looks, sizes, and temperaments to suit any owner. No, I don't dispute that selective breeding is important and amazing, but in a debate both sides should be clearly defined.

I also agree that there are probably almost no scholarly articles specifically on reptilian inbreeding - I was speaking of articles on inbreeding in general, since the laws of inbreeding/homozygosity are pretty universal (makes sense, as DNA is universal) and there really is no reason to believe that the DNA would act differently in reptiles.

As an aside, I've been pretty caught up in the debate, but I'd like to see the stuff you breed if you have photos online or something.

Have a good one,
Ken
 

oswego tort lover

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i guess the heart of this informative debate is culling ethical or not. those who tend to have more anthropomorphic views about reptialian lifes, would seem to disagree with it on principle. those who breed to sell as i do have in common the knowledge that animals are property that carry an additional responsibly above the care of mere objects .we are all goverened by our own reasoned opinions as to weather we would buy an animal whose existence is created in part by the death of other similar creatures. that is the choice we make as consumers of the product. for me as long as the deformed creatures dont go to waste . a purpose has been served ............ed
 

Marla

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I think it would fun to breed for color with tortoises but also an impossible project..It takes so darn long to grow and adult tortoise as it is, yet select for color traits..I think its amazing that Richard Fife has the Ivory Tortoise (paten on the name too)..By the time you start to see your results your an old man/woman...
 

dawnzky05

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A red Russian tortoise? I love the idea but I still prefer the natural one.:)





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chic shoes
 

nrfitchett4

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I just don't think this is a viable option considering to amount of time involved. Even if you started in your teenage years, it would take many generations coupled with many torts to make this happen.
I guess you could pass it on to your grandchildren!!!
 

Pesky Fly

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I probably don’t have any right to post this but as far as my genetics knowledge goes, genes (traits, alleles) cannot build up. Hence Douglas would be correct. As only ½ of an organisms genes come from one parent and ½ from another, the likely hood of it acquiring multiples of the same or similar line gene are slim to none. I breed mammals, rabbits to be exact and yes I have line bred to bring out traits which are desirable. The issue with line breeding is, it will bring out the good traits, but will also bring out the “bad” traits. So if you have a bunny with a slightly crooked tail, breed it to one of its offspring, you could end up with a noticeably crooked tail. I don’t know if the same applies to reptiles, but it’s my two cents.
 

Jacqui

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Pesky Fly said:
I probably don’t have any right to post this but as far as my genetics knowledge goes, genes (traits, alleles) cannot build up. Hence Douglas would be correct. As only ½ of an organisms genes come from one parent and ½ from another, the likely hood of it acquiring multiples of the same or similar line gene are slim to none. I breed mammals, rabbits to be exact and yes I have line bred to bring out traits which are desirable. The issue with line breeding is, it will bring out the good traits, but will also bring out the “bad” traits. So if you have a bunny with a slightly crooked tail, breed it to one of its offspring, you could end up with a noticeably crooked tail. I don’t know if the same applies to reptiles, but it’s my two cents.

Curious, what type(s) of rabbits? Long ago I raised and showed rabbits (mostly Harlequins)
 

Pesky Fly

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I raise English Lops, Lionheads, Holland Lops, and a few Polish. I show for ARBA.
 
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stevejack

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Hi..
That's really great if in future tortoises is in colors.. about that red russian tortoises i like thought... Thanks
 

DoctorCosmonaut

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I personally think personality is the biggest seller for me... colors are pretty, but personality is what makes a good pet great... So color is usually peripheral for me
 

Tccarolina

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Pesky Fly said:
I probably don’t have any right to post this but as far as my genetics knowledge goes, genes (traits, alleles) cannot build up. Hence Douglas would be correct. As only ½ of an organisms genes come from one parent and ½ from another, the likely hood of it acquiring multiples of the same or similar line gene are slim to none. I breed mammals, rabbits to be exact and yes I have line bred to bring out traits which are desirable. The issue with line breeding is, it will bring out the good traits, but will also bring out the “bad” traits. So if you have a bunny with a slightly crooked tail, breed it to one of its offspring, you could end up with a noticeably crooked tail. I don’t know if the same applies to reptiles, but it’s my two cents.

Pesky Fly,
I believe you are reiterating what Ken was saying. "Building up expressed deleterious alleles" means that the likelihood of recessive traits are increased. He was not saying the same gene was being multiplied, but that the number of recessive traits are likely to increase, do to compounding of the alleles responsible. He was saying that breeding two genetically similar individuals will increase the likelihood that their offspring will exhibit or carry negative traits as well as the desired trait you are breeding for.
If you breed an albino wild-caught reptile together with a normal individual, you get babies that are heterozygous for albino. They carry the recessive albino allele, but the dominant allele from their other parent is expressed, so they do not show the albino trait, but carry the recessive allele for it. Breeding these offspring together results in some albino, some pure normal, and some het for albino individuals.

However, for most traits it's not so simple. They are not just the result of one gene with three outcomes (AA, aa, or Aa). They are the result of a combination of genes and their alleles or from genes with multiple alleles. Human blood type has three alleles, with six combinations (AA, BB, OO, AB, AO, and BO).
So if you have a rare disease that is present only when a combination of genes are expressing particular traits, you increase the odds of the bad combination significantly by inbreeding. The majority of the offspring may still not have the unlucky combination, but may be much closer to it, and further line-breeding compounds the scenario.

If A is dominant over b, and dominant means dark hair with recessive meaning blond hair, then:
Gene = XX (can be AA, Ab, or bb)
Allele = A or b (in this case there are 2 alleles)
Trait = The expressed result of the gene. There are two outcomes here, AA and Ab, or bb. AA and Ab have the same expression, dark hair. Only bb expresses the recessive trait, blond hair.

Basically, whether its mice, rabbits, humans, or reptiles, the results of inbreeding mean more bad stuff is expressed.
Another problem with line-breeding animals is we aren't usually aware of many of the negative results.
In humans, we quickly notice that inbred populations are more likely to exhibit mental disturbances, but other recessive traits that are more physical take more generations to notice. But when we line-breed animals, how difficult is it to notice mental disturbances? How do you tell your tortoise is a little "different"? You can't. Most of the negatives results of line-breeding are not immediately apparent, but they are there, and may result in reduced lifespan, poor health, impaired survival skills, and so on. These are not so easy to cull out, since they are hard to identify (is this snake suffering from genetic poor health or parasites?). Culling to eliminate expressing individuals is possible, but culling to eliminate a trait is very difficult, since many "normal" individuals in your breeding population are carriers for the recessive alleles that are expressed by the few. Many of the recessive negative traits aren't visible until after the individual is breeding, making culling expensive and time-consuming. Would you cull out all an animal's offspring when you find out later in its life that it died prematurely? Probably not (and chances are you've already sold them). Culling is usually applied only to deformed newborns/hatchlings, and rarely to other genetically negative traits, if for no other reason then they are hard to identify without expensive veterinary procedures.


Steve
 

Stephanie Logan

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egyptiandan said:
Not sure if you can get a tortoise in another color Jacqui, there are though plenty of people that are breeding to enhance or intensify the colors they already have.
Like Douglas breeding for Stars with more rays. I could see that getting to the point of an all yellow Star.
Terry breeds for color in his Redfoots. :D
There are now albino, hypomelanistic and leusistic tortoise out there, with people trying to breed those.

Me on the other hand :cool: I could care less about color. It's the species or subspecies that matters to me. One of my favorite tortoises, the Chaco tortoise, is one of the least colorful tortoises out there.
Give me the ugliest Burmese Star tortoise pair or Radiated pair and I'd be a happy camper. Just the chance to breed those species would do it for me. :D

Danny

Yay Chaco's! Beautiful features, sweet personalities, and terribly underappreciated! Go Chaco's! Go Chaco's! Go Chaco's!:D
 

-EJ

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I could care less in the case of pets. I'd like to produce a Leopard x Sulcata.

It's all about levels. If you're interested in pets... does it really matter.

If you're into the species in the hopes of contributing to repopulation... that's a different story. Many say this is impossible because biologists do not work with the private sector... wrong. If you have a species that is extremely limited... there are ways.

The point... distinguishing between pets and the rest.

Jacqui said:
What do you feel about the future tortoises being breed not for colorings they naturally would have, but more eye pleasing ones? Or crossing different types together like Maps and Sliders? Would you like a Star, that is red, orange, or bright yellow with the dark black markings? How about a red Russian anybody?
 
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darreinjhony

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Hi..
I have gone through the post and the information which you share is really good one...
 
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