dry tortoise shell?

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

i also completely forgot to mention that she drags herself when she walks. i'm considering taping her for her outside walks until she develops muscles again to walk without drag.

Can I ask how long you’ve noticed her dragging for? I don’t suppose you could attach a video? You have to upload to another source like YouTube then attach the link

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

i'm back again, does anyone here know tortoise babysitters in california, san jose? my parents want to go on vacation this summer and i've practically shut out the idea of vacation because i wanna stay and care for her. it's bad enough that im not at home bc of school ... 😭

I can’t help on this front, but I’d be very careful who you choose to cater to her current needs, you need to find someone who will be prepared in the event she deteriorates under their care, sorry I’m not saying that to worry you, I’m only saying as she’s clearly presenting with some health problems

I genuinely wish I could be of more use to you, her symptoms really are out of my depth so I’m reluctant saying what I think the potential problems could be/advising on her care, but I also don’t want you just left hanging if the others don’t get round to answering😣

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

This sounds silly as I’m sure you’ve answered all this previously, but let’s strip back to the very basics again for a refresh and to keep this thread active

What are the temperatures in the enclosure like? Ie basking temp(directly under the bulb) overall day temps and night temps?
What size is the current enclosure? And how long does she get outside daily?(be as honest as you can, we won’t judge, we just need to know the information)
How’s humidity and what are you using for substrate?
How do you measure your temp and humidity? Digital monitors? Temp gun?
What kind of things are you currently feeding diet wise now? Do you add supplementation like calcium? If so how much?
What kind of lighting/heating are you using specifically? Do you use indoor uv?
How often do you soak her currently?

An up to date photo of your enclosure could be useful here👍

 

[zovick]

@Chefdenoel10 😭 i'm so lost right now, i want her to get better... i've ordered everything from amazon, and during the weekend i will set up her new enclosure. i've been very busy lately, so i haven't been actively hand feeding her. i know for sure she poops (it's a dark green color and holds its shape, though it isn't overly dry.) i put her in the bath this weekend (i kind of feel bad for not soaking her today) and she pooped 6 times she's very active still, she can probably claw me hard enough to break my skin though she hasn't really tried. she also dug under the fence and has a crazy appetite, though i've been feeding her a lot less lately to see if her weight drops. (it hasn't.) she was 600g in early july, now she is 580g. ...i think it's just water retention, like in humans. man i don't know, i'm so lost.

i can't drive (yet), and i've been so busy and i can't find time for her. i already bought all these supplies to make her a nice enclosure (still small, but bigger than her last one). if i were to rehome her (i really don't want to) i'd have to do something with all these supplies. it feels like a monetary waste, as harsh as it sounds... since money is something i take care of on my own. my job isn't very stable so sadly, money is a factor in her care.

okay onto the shell, if u look between the scutes, some of it is dark, almost like dried blood. (it isn't). some of it did come off, and it was pure white underneath. these areas between the scutes are softer, like a very hard bar of soap. you can make indents with your nails. the rest of her shell is hard. near the edges of her scutes, part of her shell can flake off, in small segments. underneath is whiter shell. i don't think it's fungus? fungus usually appears on plastron first right.... anyway, that aside, her shell is still rock hard aside from those areas. only those crevices between scutes.

The white crevices between the scutes which I see in these pix are the new growth which is taking place. Those areas are always softer than the rest of the shell. I would highly recommend leaving them alone (IE, don't scrape on them to see if they are soft, they ARE soft) because you will cause damage to the new growth and scarring. Not to mention exposing the new bone underneath and possibly causing an infection.

 

[Yingg]

The white crevices between the scutes which I see in these pix are the new growth which is taking place. Those areas are always softer than the rest of the shell. I would highly recommend leaving them alone (IE, don't scrape on them to see if they are soft, they ARE soft) because you will cause damage to the new growth and scarring. Not to mention exposing the new bone underneath and possibly causing an infection.

oh okay, that makes me feel better. do you know what the dark area is?

 

[Yingg]

I can’t help on this front, but I’d be very careful who you choose to cater to her current needs, you need to find someone who will be prepared in the event she deteriorates under their care, sorry I’m not saying that to worry you, I’m only saying as she’s clearly presenting with some health problems

I genuinely wish I could be of more use to you, her symptoms really are out of my depth so I’m reluctant saying what I think the potential problems could be/advising on her care, but I also don’t want you just left hanging if the others don’t get round to answering😣

ah, don't worry. you've been so much help so far, and you're so nice. i totally get what you mean, i do have to be very careful 😢

 

[Yingg]

Can I ask how long you’ve noticed her dragging for? I don’t suppose you could attach a video? You have to upload to another source like YouTube then attach the link

i will make a video soon, i'm in class right now. maybe 12 hours!

 

[Yingg]

This sounds silly as I’m sure you’ve answered all this previously, but let’s strip back to the very basics again for a refresh and to keep this thread active

What are the temperatures in the enclosure like? Ie basking temp(directly under the bulb) overall day temps and night temps?
What size is the current enclosure? And how long does she get outside daily?(be as honest as you can, we won’t judge, we just need to know the information)
How’s humidity and what are you using for substrate?
How do you measure your temp and humidity? Digital monitors? Temp gun?
What kind of things are you currently feeding diet wise now? Do you add supplementation like calcium? If so how much?
What kind of lighting/heating are you using specifically? Do you use indoor uv?
How often do you soak her currently?

An up to date photo of your enclosure could be useful here👍

gosh this is all going to sound so bad. i'll provide the old enclosure, since as you know everything is getting revamped. this is the enclosure i think caused the harm.

temp: 70-90, i used to turn on the basking light in intervals rather than leaving it on.
size: 34x16 inches (this is so bad....)
outside: used to be basically none, only 3 hours every, like, 5 days.... now it's at least 4 hours every two days and 6 hours a day on the weekends.
humidity... i'm not sure. the humidity reader broke, a while back. before this, i know it used to be very dry. now, i manually spritz with water and keep the substrate moist while the reader arrives.
substrate: coco coir
temp gun, not monitor. i stole my dad's.
food: back then it was practically romaine lettuce 24/7. now: still romaine, but i mix it with mazuri LS tortoise chow if she's hungry (she won't eat it otherwise). hibiscus flowers, sometimes succulents (very rarely), endive: escarole, wheatgrass if i can get my hands on it. that's currently what she's okay with eating. i give her a pinch of calcium twice a week
i used to use indoor UV. the bulb is from somewhere, i don't even know where. the basking light is Zoomed's basking bulb, and the heat emitter is just a normal heat emitter. except it broke recently, so i use the basking lamp at a very low wattage/power (?) to regulate at night. though usually i don't need to, it's pretty warm at night. NOW: i use arcadia t5 12%, zoomed basking bulb, normal head emitter.
soak: used to be nearly never. now i do ít twice a week at minimum.

picture: these are VERY old pictures, but this is what the enclosure looked like 😭 i'm at school, i can't really go home and take a picture right now.

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

gosh this is all going to sound so bad. i'll provide the old enclosure, since as you know everything is getting revamped. this is the enclosure i think caused the harm.

temp: 70-90, i used to turn on the basking light in intervals rather than leaving it on.
size: 34x16 inches (this is so bad....)
outside: used to be basically none, only 3 hours every, like, 5 days.... now it's at least 4 hours every two days and 6 hours a day on the weekends.
humidity... i'm not sure. the humidity reader broke, a while back. before this, i know it used to be very dry. now, i manually spritz with water and keep the substrate moist while the reader arrives.
substrate: coco coir
temp gun, not monitor. i stole my dad's.
food: back then it was practically romaine lettuce 24/7. now: still romaine, but i mix it with mazuri LS tortoise chow if she's hungry (she won't eat it otherwise). hibiscus flowers, sometimes succulents (very rarely), endive: escarole, wheatgrass if i can get my hands on it. that's currently what she's okay with eating. i give her a pinch of calcium twice a week
i used to use indoor UV. the bulb is from somewhere, i don't even know where. the basking light is Zoomed's basking bulb, and the heat emitter is just a normal heat emitter. except it broke recently, so i use the basking lamp at a very low wattage/power (?) to regulate at night. though usually i don't need to, it's pretty warm at night. NOW: i use arcadia t5 12%, zoomed basking bulb, normal head emitter.
soak: used to be nearly never. now i do ít twice a week at minimum.

picture: these are VERY old pictures, but this is what the enclosure looked like 😭 i'm at school, i can't really go home and take a picture right now.

Thank you for the reply.

So for your temperatures, directly under the bulb you want a 95-100 basking spot(check under that bulb to see if you’re achieving that)then the middle can be around 80-85, and the cooler side high 70’s.

With the basking light, it’s all about making it the right height to achieve that basking temperature underneath, once you’ve got that, your ceramic running on a thermostat will be what makes up any ambient heat and give you your night heat(they need complete darkness at night, no basking light)

I think it’s important you invest in some digital monitoring that measures both your temperature and humidity, the monitors will give air temperature readings, whereas the gun only give surface temps, it’d be really good to know where your humidity is at too. I do notice her skin is quite dry, the soaks are great for this, but if humidity is constantly too low, she will potentially become dehydrated.

I am noticing your coir appears quite dry and dusty looking, with coir you want it nice and damp and packed down firmly by hand, leaving it loose will dry it out quicker. To be honest I think coir works better as a base, and it might be worth getting some orchid bark/forest floor to layer on top. To maintain your humidity a bit better, instead of just the sprays, I’d pour some lukewarm water into the corners, not too much to make mud🥲but enough to keep your bottom layer constantly damp.

Diet could ideally do with a little bit more variety, but I understand she’s a picky eater from her previous limited diet, just keep preserving with safe new foods🙂

Your soak schedule is fine, do you use timers for your basking bulb/ambient light? Uv can be on a separate one. It’s good to keep them on the correct cycle instead of manually having to do it.

Size wise, as you know that indoor set up is definitely too small, and unfortunately the one you are planning is too, I understand you’re in a very difficult position though😣

With all her current problems, personally, and some may disagree, I’d want to get her in an appropriate sized indoor set up until I started to see improvement, the reason I say this is so you can control all her environmental factors much easier, you can make sure she’s the exact temperature she needs to be to digest her food and nutrients properly and that she’s getting the appropriate amount of uv. This would of course only work if you’re will to go closer to a 8x4 foot size😕

I do have concerns that her outdoor time isn’t enough, that spending prolonged periods in a small indoor set up is causing the deterioration you’re seeing with her walking etc. I know you’re doing your absolute best with the position you’re in, but I do worry that things carrying on as they are, isn’t going to improve things, as you’ve already made certain amendments but she appears to be getting worse according to each update😔

Is there any possibility of you using the wood you have to make a barrier, sectioning off a part of your bedroom(a big a space as possible) and of course making sure it’s tall enough to prevent escape, then putting down pond lining and filling with substrate? Usually I wouldn’t suggest an enclosure directly on the ground as heat rises, but I think with the right heating and domes, maybe a potential covering, you could achieve the temperatures you need, whilst giving them the much needed roaming space. I’m attaching a photo to give you a rough visual, ignore what else is in there, their substrate looks rubbish and the log things, but hopefully you get the idea. You can then use other timber wood to make your stands for your lighting and heating🙂

I made this thread recently, I’ve given you a bunch of the information before, but if you scroll to the end, I give lots of visual examples for the kind of equipment you need, along with some enclosure examples, I think you might find it useful seeing it in that format

Housing adult Russian and Hermans indoors

Hello there! In this thread I’m going to include some information an example of an appropriate indoor set up for an older Herman/russian. As much as it’s encouraged to have tortoises in a safe outdoor enclosure, I understand being from the uk myself, that some climates make it difficult to...

tortoiseforum.org

 

[Yingg]

Thank you for the reply.

So for your temperatures, directly under the bulb you want a 95-100 basking spot(check under that bulb to see if you’re achieving that)then the middle can be around 80-85, and the cooler side high 70’s.

With the basking light, it’s all about making it the right height to achieve that basking temperature underneath, once you’ve got that, your ceramic running on a thermostat will be what makes up any ambient heat and give you your night heat(they need complete darkness at night, no basking light)

I think it’s important you invest in some digital monitoring that measures both your temperature and humidity, the monitors will give air temperature readings, whereas the gun only give surface temps, it’d be really good to know where your humidity is at too. I do notice her skin is quite dry, the soaks are great for this, but if humidity is constantly too low, she will potentially become dehydrated.

I am noticing your coir appears quite dry and dusty looking, with coir you want it nice and damp and packed down firmly by hand, leaving it loose will dry it out quicker. To be honest I think coir works better as a base, and it might be worth getting some orchid bark/forest floor to layer on top. To maintain your humidity a bit better, instead of just the sprays, I’d pour some lukewarm water into the corners, not too much to make mud🥲but enough to keep your bottom layer constantly damp.

Diet could ideally do with a little bit more variety, but I understand she’s a picky eater from her previous limited diet, just keep preserving with safe new foods🙂

Your soak schedule is fine, do you use timers for your basking bulb/ambient light? Uv can be on a separate one. It’s good to keep them on the correct cycle instead of manually having to do it.

Size wise, as you know that indoor set up is definitely too small, and unfortunately the one you are planning is too, I understand you’re in a very difficult position though😣

With all her current problems, personally, and some may disagree, I’d want to get her in an appropriate sized indoor set up until I started to see improvement, the reason I say this is so you can control all her environmental factors much easier, you can make sure she’s the exact temperature she needs to be to digest her food and nutrients properly and that she’s getting the appropriate amount of uv. This would of course only work if you’re will to go closer to a 8x4 foot size😕

I do have concerns that her outdoor time isn’t enough, that spending prolonged periods in a small indoor set up is causing the deterioration you’re seeing with her walking etc. I know you’re doing your absolute best with the position you’re in, but I do worry that things carrying on as they are, isn’t going to improve things, as you’ve already made certain amendments but she appears to be getting worse according to each update😔

Is there any possibility of you using the wood you have to make a barrier, sectioning off a part of your bedroom(a big a space as possible) and of course making sure it’s tall enough to prevent escape, then putting down pond lining and filling with substrate? Usually I wouldn’t suggest an enclosure directly on the ground as heat rises, but I think with the right heating and domes, maybe a potential covering, you could achieve the temperatures you need, whilst giving them the much needed roaming space. I’m attaching a photo to give you a rough visual, ignore what else is in there, their substrate looks rubbish and the log things, but hopefully you get the idea. You can then use other timber wood to make your stands for your lighting and heating🙂

I made this thread recently, I’ve given you a bunch of the information before, but if you scroll to the end, I give lots of visual examples for the kind of equipment you need, along with some enclosure examples, I think you might find it useful seeing it in that format

Housing adult Russian and Hermans indoors

Hello there! In this thread I’m going to include some information an example of an appropriate indoor set up for an older Herman/russian. As much as it’s encouraged to have tortoises in a safe outdoor enclosure, I understand being from the uk myself, that some climates make it difficult to...

tortoiseforum.org

my parents will definitely not allow anything bigger, table or on the ground or anything, really. i'm actually considering leaving her to walk around outside while i'm in class. she's pretty visible, i do leave a marker on her shell (a small piece of tape.) and yes, i do have timers for all my lights. i'll invest in a digital monitor too, and start pouring water into the substrate. is there any way i could actually just leave her outdoors? would that help? and more soaks?

ugh i feel so bad, she keeps getting worse in my care.... she's still eating, and walking around, but looking at her shell makes me so sad. at this point, should i just rehome her? i'm not sure i'll do with all the supplies i bought tho.... i kind of just want the best for her, you know ><" since all this care IS something i can do. it's just that my parents won't allow it. ugh,,,,

 

[Alex and the Redfoot]

my parents will definitely not allow anything bigger, table or on the ground or anything, really. i'm actually considering leaving her to walk around outside while i'm in class. she's pretty visible, i do leave a marker on her shell (a small piece of tape.) and yes, i do have timers for all my lights. i'll invest in a digital monitor too, and start pouring water into the substrate. is there any way i could actually just leave her outdoors? would that help? and more soaks?

ugh i feel so bad, she keeps getting worse in my care.... she's still eating, and walking around, but looking at her shell makes me so sad. at this point, should i just rehome her? i'm not sure i'll do with all the supplies i bought tho.... i kind of just want the best for her, you know ><" since all this care IS something i can do. it's just that my parents won't allow it. ugh,,,,

The only way to safely leave her outside is to make a fenced area in the garden. It can be done very nice looking with some efforts.

New growth is a good sign but if older keratin layers were damaged some chipping is inevitable. I think you are doing great with her care now. If she is sick and slowly declining, unlikely you (or new home) can do anything about it. Rehoming is an option when you can't provide her good care (because of going to college, for example) and you sure that she will be neglected by your parents.

 

[Yingg]

The only way to safely leave her outside is to make a fenced area in the garden. It can be done very nice looking with some efforts.

New growth is a good sign but if older keratin layers were damaged some chipping is inevitable. I think you are doing great with her care now. If she is sick and slowly declining, unlikely you (or new home) can do anything about it. Rehoming is an option when you can't provide her good care (because of going to college, for example) and you sure that she will be neglected by your parents.

the good news is my whole yard (it's about an acre) is fenced in. she likes to dig so i tape a small string/balloon to her, so she's always visible . i will have to look into rehoming if college doesn't allow her. though i think they will, she doesn't bark or stink, she is just a moving rock

 

[Yingg]

The only way to safely leave her outside is to make a fenced area in the garden. It can be done very nice looking with some efforts.

New growth is a good sign but if older keratin layers were damaged some chipping is inevitable. I think you are doing great with her care now. If she is sick and slowly declining, unlikely you (or new home) can do anything about it. Rehoming is an option when you can't provide her good care (because of going to college, for example) and you sure that she will be neglected by your parents.

i also don't think the coconut oil is working 😭

 

[Tom]

gosh this is all going to sound so bad. i'll provide the old enclosure, since as you know everything is getting revamped. this is the enclosure i think caused the harm.

temp: 70-90, i used to turn on the basking light in intervals rather than leaving it on.
size: 34x16 inches (this is so bad....)
outside: used to be basically none, only 3 hours every, like, 5 days.... now it's at least 4 hours every two days and 6 hours a day on the weekends.
humidity... i'm not sure. the humidity reader broke, a while back. before this, i know it used to be very dry. now, i manually spritz with water and keep the substrate moist while the reader arrives.
substrate: coco coir
temp gun, not monitor. i stole my dad's.
food: back then it was practically romaine lettuce 24/7. now: still romaine, but i mix it with mazuri LS tortoise chow if she's hungry (she won't eat it otherwise). hibiscus flowers, sometimes succulents (very rarely), endive: escarole, wheatgrass if i can get my hands on it. that's currently what she's okay with eating. i give her a pinch of calcium twice a week
i used to use indoor UV. the bulb is from somewhere, i don't even know where. the basking light is Zoomed's basking bulb, and the heat emitter is just a normal heat emitter. except it broke recently, so i use the basking lamp at a very low wattage/power (?) to regulate at night. though usually i don't need to, it's pretty warm at night. NOW: i use arcadia t5 12%, zoomed basking bulb, normal head emitter.
soak: used to be nearly never. now i do ít twice a week at minimum.

picture: these are VERY old pictures, but this is what the enclosure looked like 😭 i'm at school, i can't really go home and take a picture right now.

What is the problem? There doesn't appear to be anything wrong with this tortoise.

Make a safe enclosure outside. If you keep turning the tortoise loose in the whole yard, you are going to lose it.

 

[Yingg]

What is the problem? There doesn't appear to be anything wrong with this tortoise.

Make a safe enclosure outside. If you keep turning the tortoise loose in the whole yard, you are going to lose it.

her shell is soft between the scutes, though i learned that it's new growth and it's okay. some areas are dark and crumbly. sorry, the thread is long and roughly 90% of it is me panicking.

 

[Tom]

her shell is soft between the scutes, though i learned that it's new growth and it's okay. some areas are dark and crumbly. sorry, the thread is long and roughly 90% of it is me panicking.

I'm not going to go back and read 7 pages, but just house and feed this tortoise correctly, and everything should be fine.

The Best Way To Raise Any Temperate Species Of Tortoise

I chose the title of this care sheet very carefully. Are there other ways to raise babies and care for adults? Yes. Yes there are, but those ways are not as good. What follows is the BEST way, according to 30 years of research and experimentation with hundreds of babies of many species. What is...

tortoiseforum.org

 

[Yingg]

I'm not going to go back and read 7 pages, but just house and feed this tortoise correctly, and everything should be fine.

The Best Way To Raise Any Temperate Species Of Tortoise

I chose the title of this care sheet very carefully. Are there other ways to raise babies and care for adults? Yes. Yes there are, but those ways are not as good. What follows is the BEST way, according to 30 years of research and experimentation with hundreds of babies of many species. What is...

tortoiseforum.org

yes that's what i've been trying to do. however her state isn't changing, and i think she's declining if anything. i made some changes to her "lifestyle" and everything.

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

I took the time to re read your thread in case there was anything missed, I think you’re doing the absolute best you can and I would hate for you to have to rehome her, that’ll be last resort if there’s a problem with you taking her to college. Would you be able to house her in something larger there?

If the bigger indoor set up is a no go, it could well be worth getting her set up outdoors so she has more room to roam each day, what are temps like out there ground level? if you’re noticing she’s always digging when out, it could be it’s slightly too warm and she needs more shade, but perhaps get your gun out and do some checks🙂
I think even though you say your yard is fenced, many have still been able to escape if you aren’t there supervising, even with the tape on her shell. That’s why it is definitely worth getting something a bit more reinforced set up, that way you don’t have to worry about only letting her roam when you are home, you’ll know she’s safe.

I think I’d personally stop applying any product to her shell, but I’m curious what others think.

What is the problem? There doesn't appear to be anything wrong with this tortoise.

Make a safe enclosure outside. If you keep turning the tortoise loose in the whole yard, you are going to lose it.

I'm not going to go back and read 7 pages, but just house and feed this tortoise correctly, and everything should be fine.

The Best Way To Raise Any Temperate Species Of Tortoise

I chose the title of this care sheet very carefully. Are there other ways to raise babies and care for adults? Yes. Yes there are, but those ways are not as good. What follows is the BEST way, according to 30 years of research and experimentation with hundreds of babies of many species. What is...

tortoiseforum.org

The tortoises shell has been soft for quite a while now between the scutes, could definitely be new growth taking place, but they’ve also said she’s starting to drag herself as she walks.
They’re working on improving her diet but she is picky due to previous limitations, so it’s still not super varied, but they’re given the needed supplements.
She previously had what looked like some edema, that seems to have improved a little?
She get 4 hours outdoors every two days during the week, and 6 hours on weekends, the rest of the time they are housed in 36x16 inches indoors, soon to be upgraded to 34x44 inches. Her owner lives with their parents who won’t let them go any bigger indoors, we’re currently in discussions about the possibility of building a larger outdoor space. They will be moving to college soon, where I’m guessing outdoors may not be an option, and planned to be housed in the upgrade, so unsure on how to proceed with next steps and debating rehome, which won’t necessarily be the best option for this tortoise, she clearly has some issues going on and there’s no telling the right new owner will come along.

Positives are, tortoise is active, eating and pooping well🙂

I guess the main concern right now is why she’s started to drag when walking, and how to address the issue with set up size moving forward.

@Tom I’m curious, the tortoise is around 15 years old according to the original post, @Yingg is that how long you’ve had her? And she looks virtually fully grown, if the softness is definitely new growth? I know Russians grow slower, but I was just wondering.

yes that's what i've been trying to do. however her state isn't changing, and i think she's declining if anything. i made some changes to her "lifestyle" and everything.

I’m genuinely so sorry you’re in this tricky position😣I hope we can help in any way we can!🐢💚