Enclosure size criticism

Tom

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Hey guys and gals,

Just sitting here having a couple cold ones enjoying this beautiful weather!

Now this is probably gonna get some ppls panties up in a bunch but here we go!

I see a lot of ppl all over members for having a smallish enclosure.. im not saying a 40 gallon for an adult Russian but lets say a 6x2.
Now i hear a lot of “if u cant give it a 8x4 then rehome it to someone that can”

I see a lot of these new members love their tort with all there heart. My question is .. is it better to let them keep it in the smallish enclosure and be cared for correctly in every other way? Or end up maybe being rehomed over and over into homes who are not going to come to TFO for info and have way worse care?

Ill sit back now and watch the chaos hahaha
The issue here is that small enclosures can cause all sorts of problems for tortoises including death. Its a bad deal, and its all too common for people to have tiny enclosures, which includes adult sulcatas stuff in small heated sheds or basements for months over winter every year.

Remember Maggie's awesome tortoise Bob? Died of a bladder stone. I see this all the time in Russians that are housed in those "tortoise houses" that people buy online, or in the 40 gallon tanks that the pet stores sell them in.

It also hampers digestion and causes impaction. Much like a horse, tortoises rely on locomotion to keep food moving through the gut. Put them in a small area, and things start to get backed up.

Lack of muscle tone due to lack of area to roam is another issue. This is a major killer of island giant tortoises in zoos that keep them in tiny enclosures.

The 4x8 foot thing is an arbitrary number that I made up over a decade ago. My thinking at the time was that is was so simple to go buy a sheet of plywood at the hardware store, attach some walls and have a suitable enclosure for an indoor Testudo species. Even then, I said 4x8 should be considered a minimum and bigger would be better, but that number stuck and other people started repeating it. Obviously, this does not mean the tortoise is going to suddenly drop dead of the enclosure is only 94 inches by 46 inches, but there is some point where the enclosure size is getting too small, and it is going to do harm to the tortoise. There are many variable that determine this point. I'll agree that 6x3 feet is better tan a 40 gallon aquarium, and that 6x3 feet might be okay for the long term for some tortoises, like the ones Steve mentioned, but is 6x3 big enough for a big 10 inch active Russian female? I say it isn't. Does it mean instant death if the enclosure is only 2x4 feet? Obviously not, but its also obviously not good to house and adult Testudo in something that size, or an adult sulcata in a 10x10 shed over an entire frozen winter.

In conclusion, I will always agree with the sentiment and the statement that if anyone cannot meet any animal's basic needs, then that person should find a home for it that can. When we say that to people it is usually because they demonstrate an unwillingness or inability to care for a tortoise properly. Tiny enclosure size is just one aspect of this. When someone says, "I can't afford to do this or that...", then they cannot afford to keep the animal in question. Its that simple. I turn down free animals all the time, like horses, because I am not willing to spend the time, money, and effort needed to house and care for them correctly.
 

Fluffy

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The issue here is that small enclosures can cause all sorts of problems for tortoises including death. Its a bad deal, and its all too common for people to have tiny enclosures, which includes adult sulcatas stuff in small heated sheds or basements for months over winter every year.

Remember Maggie's awesome tortoise Bob? Died of a bladder stone. I see this all the time in Russians that are housed in those "tortoise houses" that people buy online, or in the 40 gallon tanks that the pet stores sell them in.

It also hampers digestion and causes impaction. Much like a horse, tortoises rely on locomotion to keep food moving through the gut. Put them in a small area, and things start to get backed up.

Lack of muscle tone due to lack of area to roam is another issue. This is a major killer of island giant tortoises in zoos that keep them in tiny enclosures.

The 4x8 foot thing is an arbitrary number that I made up over a decade ago. My thinking at the time was that is was so simple to go buy a sheet of plywood at the hardware store, attach some walls and have a suitable enclosure for an indoor Testudo species. Even then, I said 4x8 should be considered a minimum and bigger would be better, but that number stuck and other people started repeating it. Obviously, this does not mean the tortoise is going to suddenly drop dead of the enclosure is only 94 inches by 46 inches, but there is some point where the enclosure size is getting too small, and it is going to do harm to the tortoise. There are many variable that determine this point. I'll agree that 6x3 feet is better tan a 40 gallon aquarium, and that 6x3 feet might be okay for the long term for some tortoises, like the ones Steve mentioned, but is 6x3 big enough for a big 10 inch active Russian female? I say it isn't. Does it mean instant death if the enclosure is only 2x4 feet? Obviously not, but its also obviously not good to house and adult Testudo in something that size, or an adult sulcata in a 10x10 shed over an entire frozen winter.

In conclusion, I will always agree with the sentiment and the statement that if anyone cannot meet any animal's basic needs, then that person should find a home for it that can. When we say that to people it is usually because they demonstrate an unwillingness or inability to care for a tortoise properly. Tiny enclosure size is just one aspect of this. When someone says, "I can't afford to do this or that...", then they cannot afford to keep the animal in question. Its that simple. I turn down free animals all the time, like horses, because I am not willing to spend the time, money, and effort needed to house and care for them correctly.
Tom I'm glad you admitted that 4x8 is a made up number with no actual basis behind it. I don't want you to think I disagree with you but this number is thrown around like the gospel. My problem with it is there are too many variables that go into this. Such as species, sex, age, size and most importantly set up and how it's being used. Not everyone has the space in their home for a full sheet of plywood. That doesn't mean that they can't house a tortoise correctly. The biggest thing for me, that needs to come into play, is are they provided outdoor space and how much time are they spending between the two. I've also noticed that when the parameters are being correctly met the amount of space needed goes down. People here will go on the attack as soon as someone posts a picture that's not a 4x8 and then everyone piles on. I find that some of these people will also say its ok to house a large tortoise in a shed over winter. All of this just runs people off who could benefit from being here. Again I don't disagree with you this is just my 2 cents.
 

Tom

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Not everyone has the space in their home for a full sheet of plywood.
The above is not the problem. The problem is when they have a species and size tortoise the DOES need a full sheet of plywood sized enclosure, or bigger, and they say, "I don't have the space for an enclosure that size..."

I don't think anyone here has an issue with a hatchling being kept in something significantly smaller than 4x8 feet. I don't see people here "going on the attack" when someone talks about their new 30 gram baby tortoise in a 2x4 enclosure. Its when they have a full grown Russian tortoise, or something similar, in one of those little "tortoise houses" that are sold at pet stores or online under a variety of names. The "piling on" happens when someone has a 10 inch sulcata in a 60 gallon aquarium and then argues with the people talking them they really need something bigger. What would you have people do when someone with a large tortoise stuffed into a small enclosure replies with: "Well I don't have room for anything larger..." or "Well I can't afford something like that...", essentially saying: I'm not going to give this tortoise what it needs to live and be healthy?

I phrase it carefully: "I recommend a minimum of 4x8 feet as a general guideline for adults of this species. Bigger would be better."

When this type of thing happens, I see most of the regulars here being very respectful and courteous, even when the person arguing back is not. I do not see "attacks". Where you see "piling on", I see multiple people that know better trying to add their voice of agreement so that a new poster might be convinced to do better, and so that the new poster knows that a whole community of caring tortoise keepers agrees that their tortoise needs a better housing situation, and its not just one whack-job guy on an Internet forum picking on them.

You and I are certainly in agreement that 4x8 isn't some magic number that solves every problem for every tortoise housing situation, but its a good guideline and an easy to understand number that does solve the problem for a large percentage of the issues we see here daily. We also agree that there are a number of variables that play into how suitable a certain size indoor enclosure is for a given tortoise. Large outdoor housing for suitable weather being a big one.
 

S2G

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Honestly 8x4 is pretty dang small for an adult testudo that are common in pet stores. That 4ft is narrow like a run. I was looking at cubes at work that are 8x8. I think the bare minimum should be 8x6 or 8x8. That gives decent room to roam while still having plants, hides, etc. If all you can provide is a tortoise table or 6x2 for the life of the animal then simply dont get the animal. Then people have the audacity to charge a "rehome" fee to someone to bail you out of your poor impulse control. Those small plush studio apartments were awesome until you started losing your mind after a month of being locked in them 24/7 in 2020.

We all have mini computers in our hand. The "pet shop gave me poor advice" is not a good excuse. You could of watched garden state tortoise, etc, but you chose to listen to whomever would tell you what you wanted to hear so you coud justify getting the animal you wanted.
 

S2G

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I was going to adopt this male russian that was like 12yrs old. He was in fantastic shape & very well taken care of. He grew up in an enclosed 6x2 with sliding doors with all the fixings & was let outside when it was nice in a big grown up dog kennel. Owners were very attentive & fed a quality diet.

The problem came when they both started working more & couldnt attend to him like in the past. He started pacing the walls trying to get out & kept flipping himself over. She noticed he was on his back one day & had no idea how long he'd been like that. So i guess it could work if you split between 2 enclosures & were attentive like that. Thats a lot of work to keep up with for your entire life though.
 

Fluffy

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The above is not the problem. The problem is when they have a species and size tortoise the DOES need a full sheet of plywood sized enclosure, or bigger, and they say, "I don't have the space for an enclosure that size..."

I don't think anyone here has an issue with a hatchling being kept in something significantly smaller than 4x8 feet. I don't see people here "going on the attack" when someone talks about their new 30 gram baby tortoise in a 2x4 enclosure. Its when they have a full grown Russian tortoise, or something similar, in one of those little "tortoise houses" that are sold at pet stores or online under a variety of names. The "piling on" happens when someone has a 10 inch sulcata in a 60 gallon aquarium and then argues with the people talking them they really need something bigger. What would you have people do when someone with a large tortoise stuffed into a small enclosure replies with: "Well I don't have room for anything larger..." or "Well I can't afford something like that...", essentially saying: I'm not going to give this tortoise what it needs to live and be healthy?

I phrase it carefully: "I recommend a minimum of 4x8 feet as a general guideline for adults of this species. Bigger would be better."

When this type of thing happens, I see most of the regulars here being very respectful and courteous, even when the person arguing back is not. I do not see "attacks". Where you see "piling on", I see multiple people that know better trying to add their voice of agreement so that a new poster might be convinced to do better, and so that the new poster knows that a whole community of caring tortoise keepers agrees that their tortoise needs a better housing situation, and its not just one whack-job guy on an Internet forum picking on them.

You and I are certainly in agreement that 4x8 isn't some magic number that solves every problem for every tortoise housing situation, but its a good guideline and an easy to understand number that does solve the problem for a large percentage of the issues we see here daily. We also agree that there are a number of variables that play into how suitable a certain size indoor enclosure is for a given tortoise. Large outdoor housing for suitable weather being a big one.
Tom I totally understand what you're saying "BUT" and it's a big but, people come here and were told all the wrong information usually by someone that they would think they should trust. I rarely see anyone ask more questions of how the tortoise will be kept, outside inside etc., or explain the options to get to an enclosure size that would work. It is almost immediately 3 or 4 people saying the exact same thing over and over again. The people that are new have no reason to trust anyone here and they are being pilled onto if you see it or not. They are immediately told you're doing it wrong, don't trust anyone but us, don't trust vets or pet stores, everyone else has it wrong. If you don't see how this can feel like an attack im sorry but I know that it does. Just because this info is the best it does no good if we run off the people who need it. Tom i have a lot of respect for you but i can remember when you were here doing it wrong and trying to figure it out. If everyone treated you the way some get treated when they show up we may not have the great information we have today.
 

David Steere

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Personally I believe there is no longer a need to buy a wild tortoise anymore. Start off with a baby born by a vendor and adjust your enclosure a little at a time.

When I started the first thing I asked myself is how big will tortoise get. Not many people do that! I do not have the space or live in the correct area to have one of the huge Sulcata Tortoise. Wish I did but I knew I would get in a jam and it would be cruel for me to get one. So I settled for a Russian. Even the small ones need a lot of square footage.

Personally it makes common sense to me to make enclosures as big as you can at the time and upgrade as time goes on. Makes perfect sense a tortoise needs room to roam and explore.

Right now I have a 6'x4' enclosure for Sandy. This winter I going to add a 4'x4' wing addition. Next winter I plan on making a 3.5'x5' wing. Total floor plan at that time will be 54 square feet.

Than I can be creative the following winters ( since tortoise is an adult and does not need an enclosed space anymore and start making enclosure two or three stories and pile on the square footage.

A lot of people do not think of the end game which in my opinion is a HUGE mistake.
 

TammyJ

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Tom I totally understand what you're saying "BUT" and it's a big but, people come here and were told all the wrong information usually by someone that they would think they should trust. I rarely see anyone ask more questions of how the tortoise will be kept, outside inside etc., or explain the options to get to an enclosure size that would work. It is almost immediately 3 or 4 people saying the exact same thing over and over again. The people that are new have no reason to trust anyone here and they are being pilled onto if you see it or not. They are immediately told you're doing it wrong, don't trust anyone but us, don't trust vets or pet stores, everyone else has it wrong. If you don't see how this can feel like an attack im sorry but I know that it does. Just because this info is the best it does no good if we run off the people who need it. Tom i have a lot of respect for you but i can remember when you were here doing it wrong and trying to figure it out. If everyone treated you the way some get treated when they show up we may not have the great information we have today.
When I "Like" what I know is good advice that someone has given to a new person, it's because I want the newcomer to be glad to see that it's not just one person's opinion. If the newcomer is a reasonable and receptive type of person, they will take it as good because so many other people here agree. If the newcomer is a less receptive and perhaps more defensive type, then they may see the multiple "Likes" as some kind of attack. It really depends on the new person and their mood or personality, right? So what do we do here? Pull back and watch what happens?
 

S2G

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Tom I totally understand what you're saying "BUT" and it's a big but, people come here and were told all the wrong information usually by someone that they would think they should trust. I rarely see anyone ask more questions of how the tortoise will be kept, outside inside etc., or explain the options to get to an enclosure size that would work. It is almost immediately 3 or 4 people saying the exact same thing over and over again. The people that are new have no reason to trust anyone here and they are being pilled onto if you see it or not. They are immediately told you're doing it wrong, don't trust anyone but us, don't trust vets or pet stores, everyone else has it wrong. If you don't see how this can feel like an attack im sorry but I know that it does. Just because this info is the best it does no good if we run off the people who need it. Tom i have a lot of respect for you but i can remember when you were here doing it wrong and trying to figure it out. If everyone treated you the way some get treated when they show up we may not have the great information we have today.

I get what youre saying, but the knowledge thats out there today at your fingertips is mind blowing. Theres really no excuse. Its like living in your car & purchasing a dog. Well i know its not ideal, but im going to make it work anyway. Then get an attitude when people are like why'd buy a dog right now.
 

Tom

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I get what youre saying, but the knowledge thats out there today at your fingertips is mind blowing. Theres really no excuse. Its like living in your car & purchasing a dog. Well i know its not ideal, but im going to make it work anyway. Then get an attitude when people are like why'd buy a dog right now.
You get it. This is how I look at it too. Good analogy. "I bought this animal that needs these things, but I don't have the space or money to give it these things..."
 

Tom

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Tom I totally understand what you're saying "BUT" and it's a big but, people come here and were told all the wrong information usually by someone that they would think they should trust. I rarely see anyone ask more questions of how the tortoise will be kept, outside inside etc., or explain the options to get to an enclosure size that would work. It is almost immediately 3 or 4 people saying the exact same thing over and over again. The people that are new have no reason to trust anyone here and they are being pilled onto if you see it or not. They are immediately told you're doing it wrong, don't trust anyone but us, don't trust vets or pet stores, everyone else has it wrong. If you don't see how this can feel like an attack im sorry but I know that it does. Just because this info is the best it does no good if we run off the people who need it. Tom i have a lot of respect for you but i can remember when you were here doing it wrong and trying to figure it out. If everyone treated you the way some get treated when they show up we may not have the great information we have today.
Thanks for the feed back. This is a good topic, and this is good area for many of us to improve on.

I hear what you are saying, and the reaction of some percentage of people demonstrates that you are correct at least some of the time. So my question is the same as @TammyJ What are we supposed to do? My strategy for being diplomatic about it and saving myself hours of typing is to make a brief mention of the obvious problem, and then link them to the care sheets. People who don't want to hear it can just skip it and learn the hard way. The vast majority of people thank me. So if 99% of people are saying "thanks, you saved my tortoise", what am I supposed to do about that 1 out of a hundred who calls me names and leaves in a huff? I'd like to help that 1, and I try to do so, but you can't please everybody.

What is your solution to the problem of someone posting obvious mistakes and problems? Are we to just keep quiet and let the tortoise continue suffering? Are we to designate just one person to say something and everyone else keep quiet?
 

Chubbs the tegu

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I have one bad example of the keeping tortoise in a small aquarium. Legs muscles atrophy, lethargy etc. I am happy that she didn't end up in another small fish tank that pet store people recommend me to buy for h
I get what youre saying, but the knowledge thats out there today at your fingertips is mind blowing. Theres really no excuse. Its like living in your car & purchasing a dog. Well i know its not ideal, but im going to make it work anyway. Then get an attitude when people are like why'd buy a dog right now.
They can do plenty of research and end up with the wrong info. Because not everybody knows that TFO are the “experts” so they might be reading other sites that say all the same old info. Instead of saying how mind blowing it is that they dont research.. maybe give them a chance.
 

Anastasia 22

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The issue here is that small enclosures can cause all sorts of problems for tortoises including death. Its a bad deal, and its all too common for people to have tiny enclosures, which includes adult sulcatas stuff in small heated sheds or basements for months over winter every year.

Remember Maggie's awesome tortoise Bob? Died of a bladder stone. I see this all the time in Russians that are housed in those "tortoise houses" that people buy online, or in the 40 gallon tanks that the pet stores sell them in.

It also hampers digestion and causes impaction. Much like a horse, tortoises rely on locomotion to keep food moving through the gut. Put them in a small area, and things start to get backed up.

Lack of muscle tone due to lack of area to roam is another issue. This is a major killer of island giant tortoises in zoos that keep them in tiny enclosures.

The 4x8 foot thing is an arbitrary number that I made up over a decade ago. My thinking at the time was that is was so simple to go buy a sheet of plywood at the hardware store, attach some walls and have a suitable enclosure for an indoor Testudo species. Even then, I said 4x8 should be considered a minimum and bigger would be better, but that number stuck and other people started repeating it. Obviously, this does not mean the tortoise is going to suddenly drop dead of the enclosure is only 94 inches by 46 inches, but there is some point where the enclosure size is getting too small, and it is going to do harm to the tortoise. There are many variable that determine this point. I'll agree that 6x3 feet is better tan a 40 gallon aquarium, and that 6x3 feet might be okay for the long term for some tortoises, like the ones Steve mentioned, but is 6x3 big enough for a big 10 inch active Russian female? I say it isn't. Does it mean instant death if the enclosure is only 2x4 feet? Obviously not, but its also obviously not good to house and adult Testudo in something that size, or an adult sulcata in a 10x10 shed over an entire frozen winter.

In conclusion, I will always agree with the sentiment and the statement that if anyone cannot meet any animal's basic needs, then that person should find a home for it that can. When we say that to people it is usually because they demonstrate an unwillingness or inability to care for a tortoise properly. Tiny enclosure size is just one aspect of this. When someone says, "I can't afford to do this or that...", then they cannot afford to keep the animal in question. Its that simple. I turn down free animals all the time, like horses, because I am not willing to spend the time, money, and effort needed to house and care for them correctly.

Thanks for the feed back. This is a good topic, and this is good area for many of us to improve on.

I hear what you are saying, and the reaction of some percentage of people demonstrates that you are correct at least some of the time. So my question is the same as @TammyJ What are we supposed to do? My strategy for being diplomatic about it and saving myself hours of typing is to make a brief mention of the obvious problem, and then link them to the care sheets. People who don't want to hear it can just skip it and learn the hard way. The vast majority of people thank me. So if 99% of people are saying "thanks, you saved my tortoise", what am I supposed to do about that 1 out of a hundred who calls me names and leaves in a huff? I'd like to help that 1, and I try to do so, but you can't please everybody.

What is your solution to the problem of someone posting obvious mistakes and problems? Are we to just keep quiet and let the tortoise continue suffering? Are we to designate just one person to say something and everyone else keep quiet?
Well, I am one of those "1"s who is thankful.
The deal was about keeping tortoises in pairs. I was thinking that my Russian boy needed a friend. And then I read the thread on how Russians are territorial. It really helped me not to make a huge mistake that could lead to the tragedy....
 

Fluffy

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I get what youre saying, but the knowledge thats out there today at your fingertips is mind blowing. Theres really no excuse. Its like living in your car & purchasing a dog. Well i know its not ideal, but im going to make it work anyway. Then get an attitude when people are like why'd buy a dog right now.
I get you. Here's the problem, someone does the research then comes here after buying all the wrong stuff and doing everything wrong to be told "don't trust anything on the internet, Facebook, YouTube, the vet office or pet stores". It can be demoralizing. I've said here before that not everything needs done immediately. There just should be a way to show people what's right without beating down everything they've done to this point.
 

Fluffy

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Thanks for the feed back. This is a good topic, and this is good area for many of us to improve on.

I hear what you are saying, and the reaction of some percentage of people demonstrates that you are correct at least some of the time. So my question is the same as @TammyJ What are we supposed to do? My strategy for being diplomatic about it and saving myself hours of typing is to make a brief mention of the obvious problem, and then link them to the care sheets. People who don't want to hear it can just skip it and learn the hard way. The vast majority of people thank me. So if 99% of people are saying "thanks, you saved my tortoise", what am I supposed to do about that 1 out of a hundred who calls me names and leaves in a huff? I'd like to help that 1, and I try to do so, but you can't please everybody.

What is your solution to the problem of someone posting obvious mistakes and problems? Are we to just keep quiet and let the tortoise continue suffering? Are we to designate just one person to say something and everyone else keep quiet?
Tom I've been around a long time. I remember when you weren't so diplomatic. 😁 I want to commend you because you've really changed your approach from years ago. I'm sure a lot of that has to do with following Yvonne's lead. Now to the discussion at hand. I don't think ignoring it is the answer. I never said it was. I only think having different people repeat the same info over and over only makes people feel as though they're piling on. You do a good job of posting links. I don't have all the answers but I feel as a group we can come up with a better way. We'll always have the people who come open and ready to learn. It's the others where I feel we fail sometimes. I think asking them more questions and learning more about their situation. Maybe trying to show them through different pictures or old threads that help make our point could be helpful. Again these people know nothing about the people here or all the failures that got us to this point. I just think as a group we have room to improve. Great discussion by the way.
 

Fluffy

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When I "Like" what I know is good advice that someone has given to a new person, it's because I want the newcomer to be glad to see that it's not just one person's opinion. If the newcomer is a reasonable and receptive type of person, they will take it as good because so many other people here agree. If the newcomer is a less receptive and perhaps more defensive type, then they may see the multiple "Likes" as some kind of attack. It really depends on the new person and their mood or personality, right? So what do we do here? Pull back and watch what happens?
It's not the likes I'm referring to. I think likes are a great way to show its good advice.
 

Tom

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Tom I've been around a long time. I remember when you weren't so diplomatic. 😁 I want to commend you because you've really changed your approach from years ago. I'm sure a lot of that has to do with following Yvonne's lead. Now to the discussion at hand. I don't think ignoring it is the answer. I never said it was. I only think having different people repeat the same info over and over only makes people feel as though they're piling on. You do a good job of posting links. I don't have all the answers but I feel as a group we can come up with a better way. We'll always have the people who come open and ready to learn. It's the others where I feel we fail sometimes. I think asking them more questions and learning more about their situation. Maybe trying to show them through different pictures or old threads that help make our point could be helpful. Again these people know nothing about the people here or all the failures that got us to this point. I just think as a group we have room to improve. Great discussion by the way.
You are absolutely correct about that. Not only does she lead by example, but she's given me individual guidance and correction over the years. My style has morphed for the very reason we are talking too. I want to get more help to more tortoises and have fewer people feel attacked or disrespected.

All we can do is try for more successes and fewer failures, but I'm not sure what more we can do. Its still a jagged little pill even with all the sugar coating in the world. I get the dilemma you describe and its the reason I made this thread right here:

Have you read this one? I'd love to hear you take on the first few intro paragraphs that attempt to explain why all the other info is wrong and why what we are saying sounds so different.
 

S2G

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They can do plenty of research and end up with the wrong info. Because not everybody knows that TFO are the “experts” so they might be reading other sites that say all the same old info. Instead of saying how mind blowing it is that they dont research.. maybe give them a chance.
I get you. Here's the problem, someone does the research then comes here after buying all the wrong stuff and doing everything wrong to be told "don't trust anything on the internet, Facebook, YouTube, the vet office or pet stores". It can be demoralizing. I've said here before that not everything needs done immediately. There just should be a way to show people what's right without beating down everything they've done to this point.

You know maybe you're on to something. I wasnt your average keeper when I started. My dart frog & saltwater background prob made it easy for me to sort through the trash. Mainly for starters i knew i had to find a forum so I could find some addicts with experience.

I will say though. I had a small 4-5yr old hermann dropped in my lap. I threw together a quick 5x4 open top crate at 1st. It did not take me long to realize that wasnt enough space & i couldnt maintain my humidity without a top.

@Chubbs the tegu Remember you lit this firecracker 🤣. You were talking about prestine care in a 6x2. A person that researched enough to provide optimal care has also researched & observed enough to know that the 6x2 is not big enough especially for an adult. So yeah you love your animal. Now do you love it enough to give it the space you know it needs or enough to find a knowledgeable home that can? Or are you going to force it to live in an enclosure you know is too small for your own desires?
 

David Steere

Active Member
Joined
Mar 14, 2024
Messages
69
Location (City and/or State)
Rhode Island
I am brand new at tortoises, somehow found this forum, already had scoured YouTube on how to take care of a tortoise the wrong way and read the "How To" threads on Russian tortoises on this forum.

Built my enclosure and posted my first post thinking I was golden and everyone would say great job!

The constructive criticism that came back was huge. It took my three tries to even get close to a finished product and to this day I still ask questions. I never felt insulted or made fun of my efforts. Maybe it is age, being 59, and dealing with real life.

I do not pile on by posting when new people post. I feel it is not my place and would not help since they get excellent advice.

I even now see their setup, say "Oh my GOD that is so wrong" and wait for the replies. Not sure why they act the way they do when they get told they should change their setups by people more experienced than they are? No clue.
 

Chubbs the tegu

Well-Known Member
5 Year Member
Joined
May 9, 2019
Messages
9,756
Location (City and/or State)
Ma
You know maybe you're on to something. I wasnt your average keeper when I started. My dart frog & saltwater background prob made it easy for me to sort through the trash. Mainly for starters i knew i had to find a forum so I could find some addicts with experience.

I will say though. I had a small 4-5yr old hermann dropped in my lap. I threw together a quick 5x4 open top crate at 1st. It did not take me long to realize that wasnt enough space & i couldnt maintain my humidity without a top.

@Chubbs the tegu Remember you lit this firecracker 🤣. You were talking about prestine care in a 6x2. A person that researched enough to provide optimal care has also researched & observed enough to know that the 6x2 is not big enough especially for an adult. So yeah you love your animal. Now do you love it enough to give it the space you know it needs or enough to find a knowledgeable home that can? Or are you going to force it to live in an enclosure you know is too small for your own desires?
I know its fkn hilarious. Thats ur opinion. There are also ppl think a wild animals shouldnt be kept in captivity… why dont u listen to them? Instead of using an 8x8 enclosure
 
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