Enclosure size criticism

[mark1]

turtles and tortoise do not move large distances in their lifetimes, let alone on a daily basis......some species hatchlings are rarely found more than 40 ft from their nest until after their first year.....i've read studies from folks who have set up study sites and watched hundreds of wild box turtles , wood turtles, blandings turtles, gopher tortoise, desert tortoise, greek and russian tortoises for years to understand their behavior..... most of these live their entire life on less than an acre, a football field......

in genetics you read about inbreeding depression, in turtles, and i'd imagine tortoises, you read about outbreeding depression......i'm guessing it'd be an adaptation to lack of mobility?


adapting to an 8'x4',2'x6', 3'x4' cage imo, is less harmful than adapting to life without the sun, daylght dawn/dusk rhythms, and environmental temperature variation......... i have become of the opinion everyone who owns a wild animal, their goal should be to house it outdoors at some point.......imo, once you do that you'll see, the enclosure size being anything even remotely similar to their natural territory dimensions is the less important than the enrichment they get from having to think and act as they were intended to.......... any thoughts on enclosure size in keeping birds? or fish?

 

[Megatron's Mom]

turtles and tortoise do not move large distances in their lifetimes, let alone on a daily basis......some species hatchlings are rarely found more than 40 ft from their nest until after their first year.....i've read studies from folks who have set up study sites and watched hundreds of wild box turtles , wood turtles, blandings turtles, gopher tortoise, desert tortoise, greek and russian tortoises for years to understand their behavior..... most of these live their entire life on less than an acre, a football field......

in genetics you read about inbreeding depression, in turtles, and i'd imagine tortoises, you read about outbreeding depression......i'm guessing it'd be an adaptation to lack of mobility?


adapting to an 8'x4',2'x6', 3'x4' cage imo, is less harmful than adapting to life without the sun, daylght dawn/dusk rhythms, and environmental temperature variation......... i have become of the opinion everyone who owns a wild animal, their goal should be to house it outdoors at some point.......imo, once you do that you'll see, the enclosure size being anything even remotely similar to their natural territory dimensions is the less important than the enrichment they get from having to think and act as they were intended to.......... any thoughts on enclosure size in keeping birds? or fish?

Enclosure size in the Gecko groups is crazy. It's like ppl want to give them your whole house now days. I truly believe in enrichments.

Heck I have a fried who thinks 1600' house is too small for a family of 4. We're a family of 8 in less then that. Nothing wrong with it all all.

 

[Anastasia 22]

Enclosure size in the Gecko groups is crazy. It's like ppl want to give them your whole house now days. I truly believe in enrichments.

Heck I have a fried who thinks 1600' house is too small for a family of 4. We're a family of 8 in less then that. Nothing wrong with it all all.

I'm with them 😄 One bedroom is for one tortoise, another bedroom is for a second tortoise. The third bedroom is for me. 2500' house is getting too small😄

 

[S2G]

I know its fkn hilarious. Thats ur opinion. There are also ppl think a wild animals shouldnt be kept in captivity… why dont u listen to them? Instead of using an 8x8 enclosure

I thought I was being civil. I didnt mean to rub you or anyone the wrong way. That was a hot take you asked for though, but i'll see myself out. My apologies if I struck a nerve with anyone. I promise i wasnt trying to.

 

[Fluffy]

You are absolutely correct about that. Not only does she lead by example, but she's given me individual guidance and correction over the years. My style has morphed for the very reason we are talking too. I want to get more help to more tortoises and have fewer people feel attacked or disrespected.

All we can do is try for more successes and fewer failures, but I'm not sure what more we can do. Its still a jagged little pill even with all the sugar coating in the world. I get the dilemma you describe and its the reason I made this thread right here:

Info For New People. Please Read This First.

Hello and welcome to tortoiseforum.org! We are all glad you are here! There is no other forum like this anywhere. We have tens of thousands of members from all over the world ranging from kids with their first tortoise to people who have been breeding and keeping high end tortoises since the...

tortoiseforum.org

Have you read this one? I'd love to hear you take on the first few intro paragraphs that attempt to explain why all the other info is wrong and why what we are saying sounds so different.

Tom first of all I have thoroughly enjoyed this discussion. There are so many layers to all of this. I wish you weren't 3,000 miles away because I feel we could sit down and spend several hours on this topic.

I have absolutely read your "Info for new people" thread. It was well written and to the point. It's exactly the info new people need to read. I don't think the message needs to be any "softer" if that's the right word.

Let me try to unpack some of these layers as to what I see happening here sometimes.

When new people come here they made the effort to find this site and interact for whatever reason. Maybe they need help or just want to interact with what they assume are like minded people. There have to be thousands of people acquiring tortoises every year that never make it here or just read and never interact. I'm sure the majority of people take the bad advice they get and never look any further. Knowing this we should take every chance we get to make sure people get the info we have and have a positive interaction whenever possible so they help spread the word. They made the effort to post here so that says something about them from the start.

We have no idea who is posting. We don't know their age, education level, what language they speak, income or if they have any physical or mental disabilities etc. I just hope people think about the other person and what their situation may be when they respond.

People also learn and retain info in different ways. Tom your New People thread is great but also very detailed and wordy. There are lots of people who can't retain written information very well. Visual learners do so much better with videos or short bursts of info at a time. Tom knowing you and what you do for a living I really wish you would use your resources and time and make some YouTube videos. Chris Leone does an excellent job with his videos. I know you don't agree with everything you he does but his popularity on YouTube should show you the power and influence good videos can have. This leads me to my next item.

We all know that most of the information out there is outdated and bad. When we say things like ALL the info on YouTube, Facebook, Veterinarians, the internet, etc. is wrong it comes off very poorly. Let's be honest, THIS is on the internet and there are posters here who post videos on YouTube. We also used to have at least one Vet on here. It would be nice if we could say things like a lot or most instead of ALL. To expand on this, just like we don't know the people posting they have no idea who anyone here is. I've been around to see the experiments with the failures and successes. The new people haven't. Most people would assume they can trust Vets and the pet shops. They should assume that. It's ingrained in us to trust experts and people in a position of power. They do what they were told by these so called experts and then come here where complete strangers tell you "don't listen to them listen to us only". It would be hard for anyone to know what to do. It also sounds very pompous to tell people here is the "only" place you can trust. Let's be honest, there are good reptile vets out there and probably some people who work at pet stores who know correct information. Some of the people HERE even worked in pet stores.

The last thing for now. When people come here after doing everything wrong, instead of harping on everything why not focus on the most important things. Tortoises are very resilient and we should worry about the very dangerous things first. Let's use the 4x8 minimum as the example. It's been talked about and is easy to use as an example. I know not having enough room is dangerous and can be deadly but that shouldn't be in the top things someone needs to worry about after learning everything is wrong.

There are so many variables when it comes to how much space a tortoise needs. I really believe a tortoise needs to have their environment set up correctly first before we worry about enclosure size. I'm obviously not talking about tortoises in tiny ten gallon tanks here. If we can get them to get all the parameters correct and the food correct that would be a big win. They will learn quickly that it takes some decent size to get these right. We could initially tell them their tort needs about 32 sq ft or the size of a 4x8 sheet of plywood. That can be configured any way you like. For example; a square, L or U shape. You can do two levels if that helps. Be creative but let's get these important things first. Also if people have a decent outdoor space, which they should, and only use the indoor enclosure part time they can get away with smaller if they had to. The larger you can provide obviously the better. I wish we had a thread with nothing but pictures of correct enclosures. Tom I know you always show your one outdoor enclosure but there are lots of enclosures that may give people inspiration and be something financially they can do.

If we can get people to stick around and get to know everyone we have a chance. If we present them the info and they're not receptive there's no reason to be rude. If they stick around then we have a good chance they learn and make corrections. If they leave it's just another animal that will never get the correct care.

I own and run a construction company. As I've gotten older, I'm quickly seeing my 40's end, I realize I get better results by allowing my guys to learn and not forcing them to learn. It's a subtle change but nobody likes to be told what to do but most appreciate being shown. Some people don't want to learn but most are willing to learn if you can explain it clearly and give them time to absorb it at their pace. I see people come here all the time that are open and willing to take advice. They're the easy ones. It's the others that I'm referring to here. Sorry for being so long winded tonight. There's more I'm sure I could talk about but I've gone on long enough. I just want to see as many people get the help and info they need.

 

[Fluffy]

turtles and tortoise do not move large distances in their lifetimes, let alone on a daily basis......some species hatchlings are rarely found more than 40 ft from their nest until after their first year.....i've read studies from folks who have set up study sites and watched hundreds of wild box turtles , wood turtles, blandings turtles, gopher tortoise, desert tortoise, greek and russian tortoises for years to understand their behavior..... most of these live their entire life on less than an acre, a football field......

in genetics you read about inbreeding depression, in turtles, and i'd imagine tortoises, you read about outbreeding depression......i'm guessing it'd be an adaptation to lack of mobility?


adapting to an 8'x4',2'x6', 3'x4' cage imo, is less harmful than adapting to life without the sun, daylght dawn/dusk rhythms, and environmental temperature variation......... i have become of the opinion everyone who owns a wild animal, their goal should be to house it outdoors at some point.......imo, once you do that you'll see, the enclosure size being anything even remotely similar to their natural territory dimensions is the less important than the enrichment they get from having to think and act as they were intended to.......... any thoughts on enclosure size in keeping birds? or fish?

Tank you for that information Mark. I agree wholeheartedly. We should be more worried about outside time than a few sq ft of an inside enclosure.

 

[Tom]

turtles and tortoise do not move large distances in their lifetimes, let alone on a daily basis......some species hatchlings are rarely found more than 40 ft from their nest until after their first year.....i've read studies from folks who have set up study sites and watched hundreds of wild box turtles , wood turtles, blandings turtles, gopher tortoise, desert tortoise, greek and russian tortoises for years to understand their behavior..... most of these live their entire life on less than an acre, a football field......

in genetics you read about inbreeding depression, in turtles, and i'd imagine tortoises, you read about outbreeding depression......i'm guessing it'd be an adaptation to lack of mobility?


adapting to an 8'x4',2'x6', 3'x4' cage imo, is less harmful than adapting to life without the sun, daylght dawn/dusk rhythms, and environmental temperature variation......... i have become of the opinion everyone who owns a wild animal, their goal should be to house it outdoors at some point.......imo, once you do that you'll see, the enclosure size being anything even remotely similar to their natural territory dimensions is the less important than the enrichment they get from having to think and act as they were intended to.......... any thoughts on enclosure size in keeping birds? or fish?

Thought provoking post Mark. It made me realize that I am ignorant about long term indoor housing. I start babies of all reptiles in safe, mild, controlled indoor conditions, but then they move outside to appropriate housing. I live in a pretty good climate and it is fairly easy to house all my adult animals outdoors year round, with a little help in the weather extremes. I change some minor management techniques in winter and summer, but even my non-brumating species thrive outdoors here all year. I couldn't/wouldn't do all of this if it had to be indoors for several months of the year. If I lived where you lived, I'd have a whole different collection of species.

Your post made me realize that my way of thinking about this topic, and other tortoise topics, is skewed and biased by years of having of having access to acres of outdoor area available to house whatever I want, however I want, in a climate that is mild and warm most of the time.

 

[Tom]

Tom first of all I have thoroughly enjoyed this discussion. There are so many layers to all of this. I wish you weren't 3,000 miles away because I feel we could sit down and spend several hours on this topic.

I have absolutely read your "Info for new people" thread. It was well written and to the point. It's exactly the info new people need to read. I don't think the message needs to be any "softer" if that's the right word.

Let me try to unpack some of these layers as to what I see happening here sometimes.

When new people come here they made the effort to find this site and interact for whatever reason. Maybe they need help or just want to interact with what they assume are like minded people. There have to be thousands of people acquiring tortoises every year that never make it here or just read and never interact. I'm sure the majority of people take the bad advice they get and never look any further. Knowing this we should take every chance we get to make sure people get the info we have and have a positive interaction whenever possible so they help spread the word. They made the effort to post here so that says something about them from the start.

We have no idea who is posting. We don't know their age, education level, what language they speak, income or if they have any physical or mental disabilities etc. I just hope people think about the other person and what their situation may be when they respond.

People also learn and retain info in different ways. Tom your New People thread is great but also very detailed and wordy. There are lots of people who can't retain written information very well. Visual learners do so much better with videos or short bursts of info at a time. Tom knowing you and what you do for a living I really wish you would use your resources and time and make some YouTube videos. Chris Leone does an excellent job with his videos. I know you don't agree with everything you he does but his popularity on YouTube should show you the power and influence good videos can have. This leads me to my next item.

We all know that most of the information out there is outdated and bad. When we say things like ALL the info on YouTube, Facebook, Veterinarians, the internet, etc. is wrong it comes off very poorly. Let's be honest, THIS is on the internet and there are posters here who post videos on YouTube. We also used to have at least one Vet on here. It would be nice if we could say things like a lot or most instead of ALL. To expand on this, just like we don't know the people posting they have no idea who anyone here is. I've been around to see the experiments with the failures and successes. The new people haven't. Most people would assume they can trust Vets and the pet shops. They should assume that. It's ingrained in us to trust experts and people in a position of power. They do what they were told by these so called experts and then come here where complete strangers tell you "don't listen to them listen to us only". It would be hard for anyone to know what to do. It also sounds very pompous to tell people here is the "only" place you can trust. Let's be honest, there are good reptile vets out there and probably some people who work at pet stores who know correct information. Some of the people HERE even worked in pet stores.

The last thing for now. When people come here after doing everything wrong, instead of harping on everything why not focus on the most important things. Tortoises are very resilient and we should worry about the very dangerous things first. Let's use the 4x8 minimum as the example. It's been talked about and is easy to use as an example. I know not having enough room is dangerous and can be deadly but that shouldn't be in the top things someone needs to worry about after learning everything is wrong.

There are so many variables when it comes to how much space a tortoise needs. I really believe a tortoise needs to have their environment set up correctly first before we worry about enclosure size. I'm obviously not talking about tortoises in tiny ten gallon tanks here. If we can get them to get all the parameters correct and the food correct that would be a big win. They will learn quickly that it takes some decent size to get these right. We could initially tell them their tort needs about 32 sq ft or the size of a 4x8 sheet of plywood. That can be configured any way you like. For example; a square, L or U shape. You can do two levels if that helps. Be creative but let's get these important things first. Also if people have a decent outdoor space, which they should, and only use the indoor enclosure part time they can get away with smaller if they had to. The larger you can provide obviously the better. I wish we had a thread with nothing but pictures of correct enclosures. Tom I know you always show your one outdoor enclosure but there are lots of enclosures that may give people inspiration and be something financially they can do.

If we can get people to stick around and get to know everyone we have a chance. If we present them the info and they're not receptive there's no reason to be rude. If they stick around then we have a good chance they learn and make corrections. If they leave it's just another animal that will never get the correct care.

I own and run a construction company. As I've gotten older, I'm quickly seeing my 40's end, I realize I get better results by allowing my guys to learn and not forcing them to learn. It's a subtle change but nobody likes to be told what to do but most appreciate being shown. Some people don't want to learn but most are willing to learn if you can explain it clearly and give them time to absorb it at their pace. I see people come here all the time that are open and willing to take advice. They're the easy ones. It's the others that I'm referring to here. Sorry for being so long winded tonight. There's more I'm sure I could talk about but I've gone on long enough. I just want to see as many people get the help and info they need.

Much food for thought here. I'm going to read it again later and take it all in. I'll see if your words can help me find a way to achieve our common goal more of the time.

 

[jeff kushner]

After reading this thread in its entirety, 3 things become evident.

1. Chubbs is a "pot stirrer"
2. There are lots of folks smarter than I am

And my fav-

3. Size matters

 

[Maggie3fan]

This subject is a friend of mine...I have been crtiicised for not having massive amounts of room for almost my whole chelonia keeping experience, from people who I respect. Because of how and where I live I have 1 bedroom in my house with three 6'x2.5 tort tables with either box turtle or small tortoises, another bedroom contains 11 caged parakeets and a large aquarium with a randy male Terrapine ornata ornata. All spring and summer evey morning I take all the torts from in the house to their outside pens, all the box turtles out to their pond, and open both doggie doors on my 20'x12' tort shed and here in lies the rub. I mostly like to keep Sulcata tortoises from small to largish (100+ lbs)...giant species kept in a small shed all winter and small outside pens. I brought a bunch of chelonia to Oregon when I left California, one being a 10 pound Sulcata tortoise named Bob. That shed was outfitted especially for him and over the years he grew, I hand dug a pond for Bob and he spent a lot of time in the water, so when he started passing srones I didn't understand how that could be as he WAS well hydrated. Bob and I had a different relationship, we were very close and I spent most of my time with him. When he was 17 years old and 100+ pounds he got a bladder stone as big as a softball, and he died from a very badly done surgery. I was devastated, and yet I started to hear that Bob died from lack of exercise. We are always saying Sulcata wander far and wide daily, Bob sure didn't. He had 3 different pens planted just for him, but there's no 20 miles here. Now I have a Redfoot tortoise living in a greenhouse in another room and I do have 1 whole bedroom for me and at 1300 feet my house is not big enuf for me. But often this subject comes up concerning Bob and his lack of wander room. Did lack of wander room really cause huge bladder stone? How would we really know?

 

[Chubbs the tegu]

After reading this thread in its entirety, 3 things become evident.

1. Chubbs is a "pot stirrer"
2. There are lots of folks smarter than I am

And my fav-

3. Size matters

Ive been called worse

 

[Tom]

...I have been crtiicised for not having massive amounts of room for almost my whole chelonia keeping experience...

Nobody has criticized you personally. What has been mentioned repeatedly over the years is the fact that confining large tortoises to small quarters for months on end causes problems. Bladder stones being one of them. Its not about you. Its about tortoise health and safety. Because everyone knows you and Bob so well, your situation serves as an example of what frequently happens.

Did lack of wander room really cause huge bladder stone? How would we really know?

Patterns. When we see this same thing over and over, patterns become easily discernible. Sulcatas kept in small quarters in sheds or basement over long cold winters tend to develop bladder stones. Sulcatas walking around in warm sunshine all day long in warmer climates do not. I see a similar pattern with DTs here in the southwest. When people house them dry and keep them in what they perceive to be dry "desert" conditions, they get bladders stones and die. When people keep them well hydrated, they don't develop bladder stones and die. Try telling someone from the CTTC to keep a baby DT on damp substrate with a humid hide, and soak it daily. Or try telling them to soak adults two or three times a week in hot weather. They will have some choice words for you, and then they will show you their collection of large bladder stones from all the ones that have died over the years. There is some sort of mental disconnect with some of those people...

 

[jeff kushner]

Ive been called worse

and I was going to but I don't really know you very well yet.

LOL

 

[Chubbs the tegu]

and I was going to but I don't really know you very well yet.

LOL

Yeah give it time and it gets better haha