Enclosure size criticism

[mark1]

turtles and tortoise do not move large distances in their lifetimes, let alone on a daily basis......some species hatchlings are rarely found more than 40 ft from their nest until after their first year.....i've read studies from folks who have set up study sites and watched hundreds of wild box turtles , wood turtles, blandings turtles, gopher tortoise, desert tortoise, greek and russian tortoises for years to understand their behavior..... most of these live their entire life on less than an acre, a football field......

in genetics you read about inbreeding depression, in turtles, and i'd imagine tortoises, you read about outbreeding depression......i'm guessing it'd be an adaptation to lack of mobility?


adapting to an 8'x4',2'x6', 3'x4' cage imo, is less harmful than adapting to life without the sun, daylght dawn/dusk rhythms, and environmental temperature variation......... i have become of the opinion everyone who owns a wild animal, their goal should be to house it outdoors at some point.......imo, once you do that you'll see, the enclosure size being anything even remotely similar to their natural territory dimensions is the less important than the enrichment they get from having to think and act as they were intended to.......... any thoughts on enclosure size in keeping birds? or fish?

 

[Megatron's Mom]

turtles and tortoise do not move large distances in their lifetimes, let alone on a daily basis......some species hatchlings are rarely found more than 40 ft from their nest until after their first year.....i've read studies from folks who have set up study sites and watched hundreds of wild box turtles , wood turtles, blandings turtles, gopher tortoise, desert tortoise, greek and russian tortoises for years to understand their behavior..... most of these live their entire life on less than an acre, a football field......

in genetics you read about inbreeding depression, in turtles, and i'd imagine tortoises, you read about outbreeding depression......i'm guessing it'd be an adaptation to lack of mobility?


adapting to an 8'x4',2'x6', 3'x4' cage imo, is less harmful than adapting to life without the sun, daylght dawn/dusk rhythms, and environmental temperature variation......... i have become of the opinion everyone who owns a wild animal, their goal should be to house it outdoors at some point.......imo, once you do that you'll see, the enclosure size being anything even remotely similar to their natural territory dimensions is the less important than the enrichment they get from having to think and act as they were intended to.......... any thoughts on enclosure size in keeping birds? or fish?

Enclosure size in the Gecko groups is crazy. It's like ppl want to give them your whole house now days. I truly believe in enrichments.

Heck I have a fried who thinks 1600' house is too small for a family of 4. We're a family of 8 in less then that. Nothing wrong with it all all.

 

[Anastasia 22]

Enclosure size in the Gecko groups is crazy. It's like ppl want to give them your whole house now days. I truly believe in enrichments.

Heck I have a fried who thinks 1600' house is too small for a family of 4. We're a family of 8 in less then that. Nothing wrong with it all all.

I'm with them 😄 One bedroom is for one tortoise, another bedroom is for a second tortoise. The third bedroom is for me. 2500' house is getting too small😄

 

[S2G]

I know its fkn hilarious. Thats ur opinion. There are also ppl think a wild animals shouldnt be kept in captivity… why dont u listen to them? Instead of using an 8x8 enclosure

I thought I was being civil. I didnt mean to rub you or anyone the wrong way. That was a hot take you asked for though, but i'll see myself out. My apologies if I struck a nerve with anyone. I promise i wasnt trying to.

 

[Fluffy]

You are absolutely correct about that. Not only does she lead by example, but she's given me individual guidance and correction over the years. My style has morphed for the very reason we are talking too. I want to get more help to more tortoises and have fewer people feel attacked or disrespected.

All we can do is try for more successes and fewer failures, but I'm not sure what more we can do. Its still a jagged little pill even with all the sugar coating in the world. I get the dilemma you describe and its the reason I made this thread right here:

Info For New People. Please Read This First.

Hello and welcome to tortoiseforum.org! We are all glad you are here! There is no other forum like this anywhere. We have tens of thousands of members from all over the world ranging from kids with their first tortoise to people who have been breeding and keeping high end tortoises since the...

tortoiseforum.org

Have you read this one? I'd love to hear you take on the first few intro paragraphs that attempt to explain why all the other info is wrong and why what we are saying sounds so different.

Tom first of all I have thoroughly enjoyed this discussion. There are so many layers to all of this. I wish you weren't 3,000 miles away because I feel we could sit down and spend several hours on this topic.

I have absolutely read your "Info for new people" thread. It was well written and to the point. It's exactly the info new people need to read. I don't think the message needs to be any "softer" if that's the right word.

Let me try to unpack some of these layers as to what I see happening here sometimes.

When new people come here they made the effort to find this site and interact for whatever reason. Maybe they need help or just want to interact with what they assume are like minded people. There have to be thousands of people acquiring tortoises every year that never make it here or just read and never interact. I'm sure the majority of people take the bad advice they get and never look any further. Knowing this we should take every chance we get to make sure people get the info we have and have a positive interaction whenever possible so they help spread the word. They made the effort to post here so that says something about them from the start.

We have no idea who is posting. We don't know their age, education level, what language they speak, income or if they have any physical or mental disabilities etc. I just hope people think about the other person and what their situation may be when they respond.

People also learn and retain info in different ways. Tom your New People thread is great but also very detailed and wordy. There are lots of people who can't retain written information very well. Visual learners do so much better with videos or short bursts of info at a time. Tom knowing you and what you do for a living I really wish you would use your resources and time and make some YouTube videos. Chris Leone does an excellent job with his videos. I know you don't agree with everything you he does but his popularity on YouTube should show you the power and influence good videos can have. This leads me to my next item.

We all know that most of the information out there is outdated and bad. When we say things like ALL the info on YouTube, Facebook, Veterinarians, the internet, etc. is wrong it comes off very poorly. Let's be honest, THIS is on the internet and there are posters here who post videos on YouTube. We also used to have at least one Vet on here. It would be nice if we could say things like a lot or most instead of ALL. To expand on this, just like we don't know the people posting they have no idea who anyone here is. I've been around to see the experiments with the failures and successes. The new people haven't. Most people would assume they can trust Vets and the pet shops. They should assume that. It's ingrained in us to trust experts and people in a position of power. They do what they were told by these so called experts and then come here where complete strangers tell you "don't listen to them listen to us only". It would be hard for anyone to know what to do. It also sounds very pompous to tell people here is the "only" place you can trust. Let's be honest, there are good reptile vets out there and probably some people who work at pet stores who know correct information. Some of the people HERE even worked in pet stores.

The last thing for now. When people come here after doing everything wrong, instead of harping on everything why not focus on the most important things. Tortoises are very resilient and we should worry about the very dangerous things first. Let's use the 4x8 minimum as the example. It's been talked about and is easy to use as an example. I know not having enough room is dangerous and can be deadly but that shouldn't be in the top things someone needs to worry about after learning everything is wrong.

There are so many variables when it comes to how much space a tortoise needs. I really believe a tortoise needs to have their environment set up correctly first before we worry about enclosure size. I'm obviously not talking about tortoises in tiny ten gallon tanks here. If we can get them to get all the parameters correct and the food correct that would be a big win. They will learn quickly that it takes some decent size to get these right. We could initially tell them their tort needs about 32 sq ft or the size of a 4x8 sheet of plywood. That can be configured any way you like. For example; a square, L or U shape. You can do two levels if that helps. Be creative but let's get these important things first. Also if people have a decent outdoor space, which they should, and only use the indoor enclosure part time they can get away with smaller if they had to. The larger you can provide obviously the better. I wish we had a thread with nothing but pictures of correct enclosures. Tom I know you always show your one outdoor enclosure but there are lots of enclosures that may give people inspiration and be something financially they can do.

If we can get people to stick around and get to know everyone we have a chance. If we present them the info and they're not receptive there's no reason to be rude. If they stick around then we have a good chance they learn and make corrections. If they leave it's just another animal that will never get the correct care.

I own and run a construction company. As I've gotten older, I'm quickly seeing my 40's end, I realize I get better results by allowing my guys to learn and not forcing them to learn. It's a subtle change but nobody likes to be told what to do but most appreciate being shown. Some people don't want to learn but most are willing to learn if you can explain it clearly and give them time to absorb it at their pace. I see people come here all the time that are open and willing to take advice. They're the easy ones. It's the others that I'm referring to here. Sorry for being so long winded tonight. There's more I'm sure I could talk about but I've gone on long enough. I just want to see as many people get the help and info they need.

 

[Fluffy]

turtles and tortoise do not move large distances in their lifetimes, let alone on a daily basis......some species hatchlings are rarely found more than 40 ft from their nest until after their first year.....i've read studies from folks who have set up study sites and watched hundreds of wild box turtles , wood turtles, blandings turtles, gopher tortoise, desert tortoise, greek and russian tortoises for years to understand their behavior..... most of these live their entire life on less than an acre, a football field......

in genetics you read about inbreeding depression, in turtles, and i'd imagine tortoises, you read about outbreeding depression......i'm guessing it'd be an adaptation to lack of mobility?


adapting to an 8'x4',2'x6', 3'x4' cage imo, is less harmful than adapting to life without the sun, daylght dawn/dusk rhythms, and environmental temperature variation......... i have become of the opinion everyone who owns a wild animal, their goal should be to house it outdoors at some point.......imo, once you do that you'll see, the enclosure size being anything even remotely similar to their natural territory dimensions is the less important than the enrichment they get from having to think and act as they were intended to.......... any thoughts on enclosure size in keeping birds? or fish?

Tank you for that information Mark. I agree wholeheartedly. We should be more worried about outside time than a few sq ft of an inside enclosure.

 

[Tom]

turtles and tortoise do not move large distances in their lifetimes, let alone on a daily basis......some species hatchlings are rarely found more than 40 ft from their nest until after their first year.....i've read studies from folks who have set up study sites and watched hundreds of wild box turtles , wood turtles, blandings turtles, gopher tortoise, desert tortoise, greek and russian tortoises for years to understand their behavior..... most of these live their entire life on less than an acre, a football field......

in genetics you read about inbreeding depression, in turtles, and i'd imagine tortoises, you read about outbreeding depression......i'm guessing it'd be an adaptation to lack of mobility?


adapting to an 8'x4',2'x6', 3'x4' cage imo, is less harmful than adapting to life without the sun, daylght dawn/dusk rhythms, and environmental temperature variation......... i have become of the opinion everyone who owns a wild animal, their goal should be to house it outdoors at some point.......imo, once you do that you'll see, the enclosure size being anything even remotely similar to their natural territory dimensions is the less important than the enrichment they get from having to think and act as they were intended to.......... any thoughts on enclosure size in keeping birds? or fish?

Thought provoking post Mark. It made me realize that I am ignorant about long term indoor housing. I start babies of all reptiles in safe, mild, controlled indoor conditions, but then they move outside to appropriate housing. I live in a pretty good climate and it is fairly easy to house all my adult animals outdoors year round, with a little help in the weather extremes. I change some minor management techniques in winter and summer, but even my non-brumating species thrive outdoors here all year. I couldn't/wouldn't do all of this if it had to be indoors for several months of the year. If I lived where you lived, I'd have a whole different collection of species.

Your post made me realize that my way of thinking about this topic, and other tortoise topics, is skewed and biased by years of having of having access to acres of outdoor area available to house whatever I want, however I want, in a climate that is mild and warm most of the time.

 

[Tom]

Tom first of all I have thoroughly enjoyed this discussion. There are so many layers to all of this. I wish you weren't 3,000 miles away because I feel we could sit down and spend several hours on this topic.

I have absolutely read your "Info for new people" thread. It was well written and to the point. It's exactly the info new people need to read. I don't think the message needs to be any "softer" if that's the right word.

Let me try to unpack some of these layers as to what I see happening here sometimes.

When new people come here they made the effort to find this site and interact for whatever reason. Maybe they need help or just want to interact with what they assume are like minded people. There have to be thousands of people acquiring tortoises every year that never make it here or just read and never interact. I'm sure the majority of people take the bad advice they get and never look any further. Knowing this we should take every chance we get to make sure people get the info we have and have a positive interaction whenever possible so they help spread the word. They made the effort to post here so that says something about them from the start.

We have no idea who is posting. We don't know their age, education level, what language they speak, income or if they have any physical or mental disabilities etc. I just hope people think about the other person and what their situation may be when they respond.

People also learn and retain info in different ways. Tom your New People thread is great but also very detailed and wordy. There are lots of people who can't retain written information very well. Visual learners do so much better with videos or short bursts of info at a time. Tom knowing you and what you do for a living I really wish you would use your resources and time and make some YouTube videos. Chris Leone does an excellent job with his videos. I know you don't agree with everything you he does but his popularity on YouTube should show you the power and influence good videos can have. This leads me to my next item.

We all know that most of the information out there is outdated and bad. When we say things like ALL the info on YouTube, Facebook, Veterinarians, the internet, etc. is wrong it comes off very poorly. Let's be honest, THIS is on the internet and there are posters here who post videos on YouTube. We also used to have at least one Vet on here. It would be nice if we could say things like a lot or most instead of ALL. To expand on this, just like we don't know the people posting they have no idea who anyone here is. I've been around to see the experiments with the failures and successes. The new people haven't. Most people would assume they can trust Vets and the pet shops. They should assume that. It's ingrained in us to trust experts and people in a position of power. They do what they were told by these so called experts and then come here where complete strangers tell you "don't listen to them listen to us only". It would be hard for anyone to know what to do. It also sounds very pompous to tell people here is the "only" place you can trust. Let's be honest, there are good reptile vets out there and probably some people who work at pet stores who know correct information. Some of the people HERE even worked in pet stores.

The last thing for now. When people come here after doing everything wrong, instead of harping on everything why not focus on the most important things. Tortoises are very resilient and we should worry about the very dangerous things first. Let's use the 4x8 minimum as the example. It's been talked about and is easy to use as an example. I know not having enough room is dangerous and can be deadly but that shouldn't be in the top things someone needs to worry about after learning everything is wrong.

There are so many variables when it comes to how much space a tortoise needs. I really believe a tortoise needs to have their environment set up correctly first before we worry about enclosure size. I'm obviously not talking about tortoises in tiny ten gallon tanks here. If we can get them to get all the parameters correct and the food correct that would be a big win. They will learn quickly that it takes some decent size to get these right. We could initially tell them their tort needs about 32 sq ft or the size of a 4x8 sheet of plywood. That can be configured any way you like. For example; a square, L or U shape. You can do two levels if that helps. Be creative but let's get these important things first. Also if people have a decent outdoor space, which they should, and only use the indoor enclosure part time they can get away with smaller if they had to. The larger you can provide obviously the better. I wish we had a thread with nothing but pictures of correct enclosures. Tom I know you always show your one outdoor enclosure but there are lots of enclosures that may give people inspiration and be something financially they can do.

If we can get people to stick around and get to know everyone we have a chance. If we present them the info and they're not receptive there's no reason to be rude. If they stick around then we have a good chance they learn and make corrections. If they leave it's just another animal that will never get the correct care.

I own and run a construction company. As I've gotten older, I'm quickly seeing my 40's end, I realize I get better results by allowing my guys to learn and not forcing them to learn. It's a subtle change but nobody likes to be told what to do but most appreciate being shown. Some people don't want to learn but most are willing to learn if you can explain it clearly and give them time to absorb it at their pace. I see people come here all the time that are open and willing to take advice. They're the easy ones. It's the others that I'm referring to here. Sorry for being so long winded tonight. There's more I'm sure I could talk about but I've gone on long enough. I just want to see as many people get the help and info they need.

Much food for thought here. I'm going to read it again later and take it all in. I'll see if your words can help me find a way to achieve our common goal more of the time.

 

[jeff kushner]

After reading this thread in its entirety, 3 things become evident.

1. Chubbs is a "pot stirrer"
2. There are lots of folks smarter than I am

And my fav-

3. Size matters

 

[Maggie3fan]

This subject is a friend of mine...I have been crtiicised for not having massive amounts of room for almost my whole chelonia keeping experience, from people who I respect. Because of how and where I live I have 1 bedroom in my house with three 6'x2.5 tort tables with either box turtle or small tortoises, another bedroom contains 11 caged parakeets and a large aquarium with a randy male Terrapine ornata ornata. All spring and summer evey morning I take all the torts from in the house to their outside pens, all the box turtles out to their pond, and open both doggie doors on my 20'x12' tort shed and here in lies the rub. I mostly like to keep Sulcata tortoises from small to largish (100+ lbs)...giant species kept in a small shed all winter and small outside pens. I brought a bunch of chelonia to Oregon when I left California, one being a 10 pound Sulcata tortoise named Bob. That shed was outfitted especially for him and over the years he grew, I hand dug a pond for Bob and he spent a lot of time in the water, so when he started passing srones I didn't understand how that could be as he WAS well hydrated. Bob and I had a different relationship, we were very close and I spent most of my time with him. When he was 17 years old and 100+ pounds he got a bladder stone as big as a softball, and he died from a very badly done surgery. I was devastated, and yet I started to hear that Bob died from lack of exercise. We are always saying Sulcata wander far and wide daily, Bob sure didn't. He had 3 different pens planted just for him, but there's no 20 miles here. Now I have a Redfoot tortoise living in a greenhouse in another room and I do have 1 whole bedroom for me and at 1300 feet my house is not big enuf for me. But often this subject comes up concerning Bob and his lack of wander room. Did lack of wander room really cause huge bladder stone? How would we really know?

 

[Chubbs the tegu]

After reading this thread in its entirety, 3 things become evident.

1. Chubbs is a "pot stirrer"
2. There are lots of folks smarter than I am

And my fav-

3. Size matters

Ive been called worse

 

[Tom]

...I have been crtiicised for not having massive amounts of room for almost my whole chelonia keeping experience...

Nobody has criticized you personally. What has been mentioned repeatedly over the years is the fact that confining large tortoises to small quarters for months on end causes problems. Bladder stones being one of them. Its not about you. Its about tortoise health and safety. Because everyone knows you and Bob so well, your situation serves as an example of what frequently happens.

Did lack of wander room really cause huge bladder stone? How would we really know?

Patterns. When we see this same thing over and over, patterns become easily discernible. Sulcatas kept in small quarters in sheds or basement over long cold winters tend to develop bladder stones. Sulcatas walking around in warm sunshine all day long in warmer climates do not. I see a similar pattern with DTs here in the southwest. When people house them dry and keep them in what they perceive to be dry "desert" conditions, they get bladders stones and die. When people keep them well hydrated, they don't develop bladder stones and die. Try telling someone from the CTTC to keep a baby DT on damp substrate with a humid hide, and soak it daily. Or try telling them to soak adults two or three times a week in hot weather. They will have some choice words for you, and then they will show you their collection of large bladder stones from all the ones that have died over the years. There is some sort of mental disconnect with some of those people...

 

[jeff kushner]

Ive been called worse

and I was going to but I don't really know you very well yet.

LOL

 

[Chubbs the tegu]

and I was going to but I don't really know you very well yet.

LOL

Yeah give it time and it gets better haha

 

[The_Four_Toed_Edward]

This subject is a friend of mine...I have been crtiicised for not having massive amounts of room for almost my whole chelonia keeping experience, from people who I respect. Because of how and where I live I have 1 bedroom in my house with three 6'x2.5 tort tables with either box turtle or small tortoises, another bedroom contains 11 caged parakeets and a large aquarium with a randy male Terrapine ornata ornata. All spring and summer evey morning I take all the torts from in the house to their outside pens, all the box turtles out to their pond, and open both doggie doors on my 20'x12' tort shed and here in lies the rub. I mostly like to keep Sulcata tortoises from small to largish (100+ lbs)...giant species kept in a small shed all winter and small outside pens. I brought a bunch of chelonia to Oregon when I left California, one being a 10 pound Sulcata tortoise named Bob. That shed was outfitted especially for him and over the years he grew, I hand dug a pond for Bob and he spent a lot of time in the water, so when he started passing srones I didn't understand how that could be as he WAS well hydrated. Bob and I had a different relationship, we were very close and I spent most of my time with him. When he was 17 years old and 100+ pounds he got a bladder stone as big as a softball, and he died from a very badly done surgery. I was devastated, and yet I started to hear that Bob died from lack of exercise. We are always saying Sulcata wander far and wide daily, Bob sure didn't. He had 3 different pens planted just for him, but there's no 20 miles here. Now I have a Redfoot tortoise living in a greenhouse in another room and I do have 1 whole bedroom for me and at 1300 feet my house is not big enuf for me. But often this subject comes up concerning Bob and his lack of wander room. Did lack of wander room really cause huge bladder stone? How would we really know?

I am currently dealing with my rescue Russian tortoise having bladder stones. With that I have done some research, and also read some threads about Bob. I wonder how big of a factor the lack of space was in the case of my tortoise.

In the shelter he was housed on a thin layer of dry sand or sometimes fir bark, infra red bulb (probably spot too), no soaking and a cat bowl for water. The humidity was in the 40s. But on top of this all, his enclosure was less than one sqm. He was occasionally let roam because that is what he was used to in his old home. Overall they just continued to do what the previous owner had done. This was a shelter mainly for cats and dogs, and surely almost only for mammals. They weren't knowledgeable on tortoise care.

 

[mark1]

my questions would be why a wild russian tortoise or desert tortoise can go months without activity, water or urinating (aestivation and hibernation) year after year for decades and not be dying from bladder stones ? and why are bladder stones not an issue in redfoot, yellowfoot, elongated, or hingeback tortoises kept in too small enclosures?

if i were guessing, i'd guess the difference would be diet......

 

[Tom]

my questions would be why a wild russian tortoise or desert tortoise can go months without activity, water or urinating (aestivation and hibernation) year after year for decades and not be dying from bladder stones ? and why are bladder stones not an issue in redfoot, yellowfoot, elongated, or hingeback tortoises kept in too small enclosures?

if i were guessing, i'd guess the difference would be diet......

Bladder stones are a by-product of protein digestion that form and collect in a dehydrated tortoise. Exercise helps to pass the material before it dehydrates further and collects into the "stones" that we speak of. During aestivation or brumation there is no protein intake, and no food intake of any kind at all, so therefore no protein digestion by-products to form a stone. So in a round about sort of way, you are correct that it is related to diet, but that relation is that there is no diet during the times of inactivity you mentioned.

Why do those other species not get it? Hydration. I have seen stones in RFs that were housed on rabbit pellets with a hot red bulb and no water dish. The vast majority of people keeping all of the species you listed keep them in damp, humid conditions, which staves off dehydration, and those species usually have a large suitable water bowl or some other type of water feature in their enclosures. In other words, humans are not housing those species in whatever their interpretation of "desert" housing might be. This is also why you seldom see RFs or Indotestudo dying as hatchlings from kidney failure due to chronic dehydration like you so frequently see with sulcatas, Russians, DTs, and leopards that are so often mis-classified as "desert" species and incorrectly housed in a beef jerky maker style enclosure.

 

[jaizei]

Why do those other species not get it? Hydration. I have seen stones in RFs that were housed on rabbit pellets with a hot red bulb and no water dish. The vast majority of people keeping all of the species you listed keep them in damp, humid conditions, which staves off dehydration, and those species usually have a large suitable water bowl or some other type of water feature in their enclosures. In other words, humans are not housing those species in whatever their interpretation of "desert" housing might be. This is also why you seldom see RFs or Indotestudo dying as hatchlings from kidney failure due to chronic dehydration like you so frequently see with sulcatas, Russians, DTs, and leopards that are so often mis-classified as "desert" species and incorrectly housed in a beef jerky maker style enclosure.

Wouldn't that then suggest it's more of a hydration/dehydration issue than lack of movement?

 

[Tom]

Wouldn't that then suggest it's more of a hydration/dehydration issue than lack of movement?

Its three elements: Protein intake, hydration status, and amount of exercise. Urates form and collect in dry conditions with ample protein in the diet. When the animal is able to get up and walk around in a large area, those urates tend to pass. Not always, but there is a much greater likelihood. If that animal is cramped in an electrically heated small space for months on end, then the urates are more likely to collect and ball up, and less likely to pass.

I see these stones most often here in the dry southwest with DTs. Most of these DTs, have huge enclosures, spanning entire backyards, but all of the literature, vets, experts, and clubs give the same wrong info for housing. They recommend dry conditions since this species naturally occurs in a "desert", but this ignores the fact that in the wild they stay underground in a more humid environment and avoid the temperature extremes above ground during the hottest or coldest parts of the day and night. Many of these sources caution against too much hydration citing that it will "upset their water balance". I think you realize by now that this is nonsense and certainly incorrect based on 1000s of cases seen here on TFO. Diet in these cases is variable, but typically they are fed the usual grocery store fare. They usually live above ground in areas where summer daytime highs top 100F, and with the lack of water, and lack of a more humid environment, they get quite dehydrated. In these cases, the stones are forming primarily due to dehydration, not lack of space to roam. I've come across many people who for whatever reason ignore the usual "dry" advice and frequently soak their DTs, use regular flood irrigation, run the hose on the lawn for their DT in summer, use humid underground housing and take care to keep the tortoise well hydrated through diet with lettuce, cucumber, opuntia, and the like, and their tortoises seldom form or pass urates, and remain healthy for decades. In my own experience starting and raising dozens of DT hatchlings, they fare FAR better when they are soaked daily, kept on damp substrate, and kept with at least moderate humidity.

The other common cases are sulcatas and Russians that are kept in tiny enclosures relative to their size for months on end due to the climate they live in. In these cases, the animals often have a water source, but lack of locomotion appears to cause both stone formation and constipation or impaction. I would see this in my own herd over winter and sometimes over summer. When weather extremes have them staying in their boxes more of the time, the urates would tend to collect. For example, every year we get cold spells here that last anywhere from 3-10 days with overcast weather, rain, and temps seldom getting out of the 50s. My adult sulcatas tended to wait out these colder spells inside their heated night boxes. When the sunshine and warmer temps returned, they would all come out and march around all over their huge enclosures and I'd find piles of urates here and there. Presumably, if housed in a heated shed similar in size to my night boxes, over several months instead of a few days during someone's frozen winter, those urates would have collected and formed a stone, where my sulcatas easily passed them during a walk-about on a warm sunny day, after a few days of cold. During our hot summers, the tortoises would remain immobile in the shade through the heat of the day. I would soak them 2 or 3 times per week in these hot dry conditions, and once the "tortoise tread mill" started in their large soaking tubs, I would frequently find urates. Through most of spring and fall when temperatures are milder and they are out walking around all day long, I seldom found any urates at all. Between the mild weather conditions, good hydration, low protein grassy diet, and ample exercise, they simply didn't form urates.

Its a recognizable and predictable pattern that I have seen over and over for decades. I know you hate anecdotal info, preferring scientific citation, but it is what it is. My advice to prevent the formation of bladder stones is to limit protein intake carefully, provide excellent hydration, and give the tortoises large enclosures to roam in. Using these three principals, I've never had a tortoise of any species get impacted, constipated, or form a bladder stone under my care, yet I see others not conforming to these three principals in one way or another, lose tortoises to large bladder stones or impaction.

 

[mark1]

an aestivating tortoise uses water from it's bladder to survive, causing it's urine to become concentrated, some temperate tortoises and turtles are inactive 9 months of the year........ i believe urates are nitrogen waste, a product of protien breakdown? a reason it wouldn't be common in forest dwelling species would be evolutionary diet adaptation..... a reason it may occur in a captive redfoot , there are some ridiculously inappropriate diets being fed.......

i would guess lack of food does have something to do with urates being produced, which would lead me to think it's diet, possibly the over feeding of unnaturally nutritious food?

one method used by hibernating turtles to survive sub-freezing temperatures for extended periods of time, specifically hatchlings, is to become dehydrated so there is no water to freeze and damage the cells ..... i would assume russian tortoises would also use the same method...

even the forest dwelling tortoises are adapted to surviving months of drought.......