Evidently we are wrong (according to Facebook)

Maggie3fan

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And a Veterinarian says so...I freakin don't know how this post and 1 million comments to it got dumped on me and now I'm just gonna go lay down.
I don't know when and I don't remember commenting but my comment is there and I read some of the comments about how stupid I was for not understanding that Sulcata come from Africa in a hot dry climate and more than a few thousand comments repeated how too much water and soaking causes pyramiding. I realty am not exaggerating the number. It's disappointing and scary. And I do believe there are more of them then there is us, and most captive Sulcata will grow pyramided and it will become the norm. Sad..

TORTOISE 101
🐢

DO NOT SOAK YOUR TORTOISE DAILY!
(Even I learned something new today. I stand corrected. For all those I adviced about soaking, please read further)
‼️
Routinely soaking sulcata tortoises is wrong and unnatural. Daily soaking should only take place if there is a specific medical reason for doing so
‼️

The reason soaking is recommended by some, as I understand it, is to prevent pyramiding, an abnormal distortion of the tortoise’s carapace that is characterized by deformed, pyramid-shaped scutes.
The typical recommendation is that the tortoise soak in shallow warm water for 15 to 30 minutes anywhere from once a day to multiple times a day.
There is no scientific research to support the idea that soaking the plastron really does anything to stop pyramiding.
What does happen frequently is that the animal defecates in the water when soaking. If this happens several times a day or several times a week, you are interfering with the animal’s natural digestive transit time. The food is passing through the gut too quickly. Bad husbandry hinders the fermentation time needed to obtain the ultimate value of all the nutrients.
Keep a pan or saucer of water at the cool end of the enclosure; the tortoise will use it when it needs to drink or wants to soak.
‼️
Soaking is an unnatural, artificial solution to an unnatural, artificial problem caused by unnatural, artificial husbandry and habitat
‼️

In fact, this may well be a contributing factor to pyramiding. The scutes (keratin) absorb a lot of water and become very soft. The expansion and contraction of the keratin causes a lot of stress on the underlying bone. In an indoor enclosure, if the habitat temperature is high and the humidity is too low, the keratin can contract (dry out) too fast, causing the carapace bone structure to be drawn upward. The more dry the keratin becomes, the thicker it becomes, so up it goes, creating more stress to the carapace bone to follow. Get the temperature and humidity under control!
On a personal note, I believe now that it is more important to keep a proper humidity level than putting tortoise in water. We can regulate the humidity with a humidifier (olx, Lazada, I use Crane humidifiers) and a hygrometer.
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Look at that baby...his bridge is already starting to flare up. I'm beginning to think nothing we do will change things
 

ZEROPILOT

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And a Veterinarian says so...I freakin don't know how this post and 1 million comments to it got dumped on me and now I'm just gonna go lay down.
I don't know when and I don't remember commenting but my comment is there and I read some of the comments about how stupid I was for not understanding that Sulcata come from Africa in a hot dry climate and more than a few thousand comments repeated how too much water and soaking causes pyramiding. I realty am not exaggerating the number. It's disappointing and scary. And I do believe there are more of them then there is us, and most captive Sulcata will grow pyramided and it will become the norm. Sad
Just get out of there and never return.
It's a madhouse outside of this forum.
Like a ZOMBIE apocalypse of bad information.
Ignorance is bliss. Who wants to hear that everything they've ever known or done is wrong?
It's uncomfortable to see the "light"

Too bad those poor tortoise will continue to suffer. But I'd like to hope that you might've saved a few
 
Last edited:

TammyJ

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Ah well. So sorry for all those doomed baby Sulcatas hatched out in those awful wet monsoon conditions in Africa!
 

Tom

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And a Veterinarian says so...I freakin don't know how this post and 1 million comments to it got dumped on me and now I'm just gonna go lay down.
I don't know when and I don't remember commenting but my comment is there and I read some of the comments about how stupid I was for not understanding that Sulcata come from Africa in a hot dry climate and more than a few thousand comments repeated how too much water and soaking causes pyramiding. I realty am not exaggerating the number. It's disappointing and scary. And I do believe there are more of them then there is us, and most captive Sulcata will grow pyramided and it will become the norm. Sad..

TORTOISE 101
🐢

DO NOT SOAK YOUR TORTOISE DAILY!
(Even I learned something new today. I stand corrected. For all those I adviced about soaking, please read further)
‼️
Routinely soaking sulcata tortoises is wrong and unnatural. Daily soaking should only take place if there is a specific medical reason for doing so
‼️

The reason soaking is recommended by some, as I understand it, is to prevent pyramiding, an abnormal distortion of the tortoise’s carapace that is characterized by deformed, pyramid-shaped scutes.
The typical recommendation is that the tortoise soak in shallow warm water for 15 to 30 minutes anywhere from once a day to multiple times a day.
There is no scientific research to support the idea that soaking the plastron really does anything to stop pyramiding.
What does happen frequently is that the animal defecates in the water when soaking. If this happens several times a day or several times a week, you are interfering with the animal’s natural digestive transit time. The food is passing through the gut too quickly. Bad husbandry hinders the fermentation time needed to obtain the ultimate value of all the nutrients.
Keep a pan or saucer of water at the cool end of the enclosure; the tortoise will use it when it needs to drink or wants to soak.
‼️
Soaking is an unnatural, artificial solution to an unnatural, artificial problem caused by unnatural, artificial husbandry and habitat
‼️

In fact, this may well be a contributing factor to pyramiding. The scutes (keratin) absorb a lot of water and become very soft. The expansion and contraction of the keratin causes a lot of stress on the underlying bone. In an indoor enclosure, if the habitat temperature is high and the humidity is too low, the keratin can contract (dry out) too fast, causing the carapace bone structure to be drawn upward. The more dry the keratin becomes, the thicker it becomes, so up it goes, creating more stress to the carapace bone to follow. Get the temperature and humidity under control!
On a personal note, I believe now that it is more important to keep a proper humidity level than putting tortoise in water. We can regulate the humidity with a humidifier (olx, Lazada, I use Crane humidifiers) and a hygrometer.

Look at that baby...his bridge is already starting to flare up. I'm beginning to think nothing we do will change things
Is this FB again? That person spent so much time and effort typing up information that is obviously wrong and the opposite of the truth.

You shut it down with a simple innocent question Maggie. Ask the person: How many times have you raised a group of clutch mates using each method and what were the results?

When they tell you they have never done that, you can tell them you know several people who have done it, and they KNOW what the results will be, and its not what this person explained in that post. Then do what I and many others have done: Show them pic after pic of healthy, thriving, growing tortoises. Show pics in the soaks, and show pics of the weekly or monthly weight gain. If what that person says is correct, then the poor babies will wither and fail to grow since we are "interfering with the animal’s natural digestive transit time. The food is passing through the gut too quickly. Bad husbandry hinders the fermentation time needed to obtain the ultimate value of all the nutrients." Ask them: If its bad husbandry, why do they thrive and grow so well?

What they say sounds so reasonable and logical, but it simply DOES NOT WORK when applied in reality. One simple experiment demonstrates this. We've now duplicated that experiment, and the results, tens of thousands of times, all over the world, with the results pictured right here on the forum.

Addressing their wrong points:
1. Soaking is not done to stop pyramiding. It is done to keep the tortoise hydrated and prevent deadly kidney damage from chronic dehydration.
2. If daily soaking interfered with gut transit time and stopped them from digesting their food properly, why do they thrive and growth so big and healthy on the daily soak routine? All anyone has to do is take a dozen random sulcata clutch mates and raise half with daily soaks, and the other half without. The difference will soon be obvious and because we have done it here, we know what the result will be. My babies, of ALL species triple or quadruple their body weight in their first 2-3 months. That doesn't sound like malnutrition to me.
3. The old "they come from a hot dry area" routine again... {Sigh...} Yes it is hot and dry for 8-9 months a year. And they live underground in their humid burrows during that time. What about the REST of the year. You know, that time of year when babies hatch? Its called the monsoon season. High levels of rainfall. Puddles form, marshes, stream and drivers form, and there is thick growing green vegetation everywhere? They live under this thick vegetative cover in the rain "Who soaks them every day in the wild???" Uhhh... That would be God. Or Mother Nature. Or if someone doesn't believe in weather controlling deities, we could say the prevailing weather conditions in that part of that world at that time of the year soaks the newly hatching babies every day.
4. "...the keratin can contract (dry out) too fast, causing the carapace bone structure to be drawn upward." In a warm humid closed chamber, the carapace is not going to dry out and not cause malformation of the scute keratin or the underlying carapace bones.
5. HEY!!! These people are acknowledging that the babies need to be kept humid. They even recommend humidifiers by brand to do so, which I disagree with. I don't think humidifiers should be blowing directly into tortoise enclosures, but at least they are not recommending beef jerky maker type enclosures anymore. That's an improvement over that way it was before.

I'd love to hear @Markw84 comment on this person's post.

Don't give up Maggie. Word is spreading and things are getting better for tortoises around the world. Set-backs are frustrating, but remember that we are fighting decades of entrenched misinformation. Keep fighting until the day you die!
 

Maggie3fan

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Just get out of there and never return.
It's a mad house outside of this forum.
Like a ZOMBIE apocalypse of bad information.
Ignorance is bliss. Who wants to hear that everything they've ever known or done is wrong?
It's uncomfortable to see the "light"

Too bad those poor tortoise will continue to suffer. But I'd like to hope that you might've saved a few
I don't normally go to other chelonia sites. And when I do I'm always sorry...
 

Maro2Bear

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Im wondering if someone should edit the title and add in (per FB) or something. Had to read a few responses until i realized the bad info was coming from FACEBOOK tortoise peeps. Just saying….we don’t want to needlessly provide incorrect info.
 

Cathie G

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Im wondering if someone should edit the title and add in (per FB) or something. Had to read a few responses until i realized the bad info was coming from FACEBOOK tortoise peeps. Just saying….we don’t want to needlessly provide incorrect info.
Amen
 

Cowgirl

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What is so sad is that when I have been in one of the Facebook groups and suggested that people join this forum for resources and information my post is always deleted by the admin.
 

Cathie G

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What is so sad is that when I have been in one of the Facebook groups and suggested that people join this forum for resources and information my post is always deleted by the admin.
But they think they are being inclusive and all that Kinsa stuff but won't stand for discussing pros and cons. I go over pros and cons with myself all the time and I haven't refused to talk to myself yet.😉😜
 

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