I decided to share my concerns relating to the tortoise hobby. I have loved turtles all my life. I probably rescued 50 found on the country roads around where i live and placed them far away from roads on my farm. I am retired now and have been building a somewhat elaborate enclosure deep in my barn for either a hermanns or russian. 75% of the time i am super excited to continue on with my enclosure and am always planning my next step of the build. Then I start reading all the problematic threads about the unbelievable number of problems tortoise owners are having. Whether its feeding, bad eyes, sleeping too much, lighting, basking, etc etc etc. then i question myself about moving forward. Are these tortoises so fragile that everything needs to be “perfect”? I don’t think so, because they apparently have been living and thriving in the wild without human intervention for eons. Hopefully for every problem thread on here, there are 10x the number of positive experiences the owners just find no reason to post their successes. Sorry for the rant! I just worry so much about all living creatures too much i guess.
Excited, Disappointed!
- Thread starter Mrgeez
- Start date
Well two things 1) captivity isn't nature and 2) they die in nature - a lot. Any species that makes large amounts of babies is because they aren't destined to live long lives. For every pet that someone painstakingly puts into hibernation, there are countless out in the wild that simply die due to drowning, predation, rotting gut, cave-in, etc. and no one knows/cares. You're comparing apples and oranges. They are both fruit, but not the same.
Megatron's Mom
Well-Known Member
Don't let the the posts with problems gets you down. Many times it is truly out of our hands. Other times it was do to many of us getting bad information.
Being that you found this site you're going to start off with some of the best information out there. Do the best you can with all this wonderful information. Remember for every post out on here that needs help. There are hundreds of tortoises who never get mentioned because all is good.
Being that you found this site you're going to start off with some of the best information out there. Do the best you can with all this wonderful information. Remember for every post out on here that needs help. There are hundreds of tortoises who never get mentioned because all is good.
The_Four_Toed_Edward
Well-Known Member
Welcome to the forum!
This can sometimes be a overwhelming place, but this is also a gem for information and networking.
This can sometimes be a overwhelming place, but this is also a gem for information and networking.
Adults are way less fragile than hatchlings in my opinion when it comes to conditions. Also, the species you listed are very hardy.
I believe this to be true. Most make their account on here to seek help for a problem they are already having. There is just a fraction of people that stay active and report on the day to day of tortoise keeping.
Its hard for me to sort thru all the conflicting info and opinions members share. I am not educated enough re this hobby, to sort out the fanatics from the real common sense members. One person i seem to trust somewhat is the guy from garden state tortoises. I watch all his videos, and start out to plan my build. Then i research some threads and find out maybe i am missing something. Thats when i get frustrated and stop for a while. Theres so many over the top tortoise owners and i can’t seem yet to sort them out.
Yes. My research tells me to purchase a hardy species adult or sub adult. I prefer a pair that will reproduce in upcoming years.
Yes, this is a very overwhelming forum. There is tons upon tons of info here. I just have to avoid the fanatics and find the common sense tortoise lovers.
The_Four_Toed_Edward
Well-Known Member
There are a few big things that cause difference in opinion:
- How important is minimizing risks as a value? Example: Whether or not use sand in indoor enclousures/captivity? Here, risks play a big part. Some people advice to steer clear from any risks sand can cause and go with coco coir, orchid bark or cypress mulch instead. Meanwhile people like garden state tortoise believe it can be safe enough to use in captivity.
- Replicating nature. Sometimes replicating nature clashes with the value of minimizing risks (in outdoor brumation for example). Examples of a difference in opinion about replicating nature can be found in all different areas from diet to housing.
- If it is not broken, why fix it? Some people here aren't all that keen to look into new research or converse about any debatable topics.
- Ethics. This goes with things like breeding hybrids etc.
The_Four_Toed_Edward
Well-Known Member
You will find out that most of the people here will advice against tortoises living in pairs. If you want to breed tortoises, you could either keep them separate most of the year and then put them together to breed, or a have a group with a balanced male to female ratio. This means at least 2 to 4 females per one male.
There are a few, in my opinion common sense reasons for this:
- Replicating the wild: Tortoises don't live in pairs in the wild. They either live in groups or more often in solidarity, seeking a mate when the mating season begins. After mating, they will wander apart again, or sometimes one gets chased away by the other.
- Minimizing risks: Because living in a pair is unnatural for them it causes stress. Most tortoise bullying and stress is not visible. In the worst case scenario things turn physical with ramming and biting etc. leading to injuries. With a male and just one female the male might mate with the female constantly, way more than in nature. Sometimes enough to kill the female.
Why not to keep 2 tortoises together - a lesson learned the hard way
This is a copy/paste of an article I wrote on my blog last year. I've seen several new keepers ask the question of whether they should get a 'friend' for their tortoise, and so rather than keeping on linking to my blog (which feels kinda self-promoting, which is not my intent), I am creating a...
tortoiseforum.org
Bottom line is: tortoises are extremely easy to keep badly. Its not hard at all to keep a tortoise in poor conditions for years or even decades - they will survive a long time. Many people do that out of ignorance, some do it out of laziness, some do it out of stubbornness. The people on this forum advocate for responsible tortoise care, which takes time and effort.
No one can force you to do anything - you do you. But this is a form where people come when after months of years of "you do you" they ask why their tortoise seems sick or dying. So that's what a lot of this forum is - helping those who don't want to have tortoises who simply survive but want them to thrive.
Chris's videos are mostly great - he's a good resource. Just remember he is a full time tortoise keeper. He has cameras on his tortoises to alert him when something goes wrong, he has formally trained his dogs not to attack his tortoises, he does things that are great for him. They do not necessarily translate to the "average joe" tortoise keeper.
No one can force you to do anything - you do you. But this is a form where people come when after months of years of "you do you" they ask why their tortoise seems sick or dying. So that's what a lot of this forum is - helping those who don't want to have tortoises who simply survive but want them to thrive.
Chris's videos are mostly great - he's a good resource. Just remember he is a full time tortoise keeper. He has cameras on his tortoises to alert him when something goes wrong, he has formally trained his dogs not to attack his tortoises, he does things that are great for him. They do not necessarily translate to the "average joe" tortoise keeper.
Thanks. Maybe i went over the top in my planning. Maybe not. I researched this for probably 4 months before i pulled the trigger and started. Yes, i researched that they are loaners, so i am building a very large “L” shaped enclosure with duplicate requirements on each of the L’s such as lighting, basking stones, water fountains, and soaking trays. The build can easily be made into 2 separate areas with a simple 8” high wall. If and when i have a pair, then i will research and question about mating times.You will find out that most of the people here will advice against tortoises living in pairs. If you want to breed tortoises, you could either keep them separate most of the year and then put them together to breed, or a have a group with a balanced male to female ratio. This means at least 2 to 4 females per one male.
There are a few, in my opinion common sense reasons for this:
This is one example of a worst case scenario that was fixed by getting multiple females:
- Replicating the wild: Tortoises don't live in pairs in the wild. They either live in groups or more often in solidarity, seeking a mate when the mating season begins. After mating, they will wander apart again, or sometimes one gets chased away by the other.
- Minimizing risks: Because living in a pair is unnatural for them it causes stress. Most tortoise bullying and stress is not visible. In the worst case scenario things turn physical with ramming and biting etc. leading to injuries. With a male and just one female the male might mate with the female constantly, way more than in nature. Sometimes enough to kill the female.
Why not to keep 2 tortoises together - a lesson learned the hard way
This is a copy/paste of an article I wrote on my blog last year. I've seen several new keepers ask the question of whether they should get a 'friend' for their tortoise, and so rather than keeping on linking to my blog (which feels kinda self-promoting, which is not my intent), I am creating a...
Substrate is minimum 8” deep. 6” of potting soil/sand mix with 2” coco coir. I hope this is deep enough if i have to hibernate them over the winters months, if i can’t adequately heat the enclosure.
I can’t help but having 2nd thoughts and scaling everything down to a very large storage container and start out with hatchlings in the house, to get my feet wet!
Yes i understand this. Once i assume the responsibility of an animal, i am “all in”, no matter what. I have horses for 48 years, and can’t tell you the expenses we incur, but i assumed the responsibility 48 years ago i strive to do the right thing, hence all my research. I will not buy that 1st tortoise until i am ready for a life long commitment to it.
The easiest way for you to do this is figure out who or what info you want to follow
If you want to follow Chris, from Garden State, do so, keep in mind though he takes risk most of us on the forum not only see wrong but will not do or advocate for. We don't advocate for mixing species, Chris does this. We don't advocate using sand, Chris does this. We don't advocate keep him pairs, not sure if Chris does or not. We don't advocate letting a tortoise that is not native to brumate on its own or outside.
This forum and most of its members learned the correct ways by other members that have done experiments and learning of their own for many years and shared with us, so we don't have to take the risks.
There are a few different ways, however some of those are risky to your tortoise and he pays for it.
Even rescuing a turtle off the road and taking it home is not the correct way to rescue a turtle. They will spend years trying to find a way back to what they know as their territory, the territory you took them out of. The proper way is to move them off the road in the direction they were going.
If you want to follow Chris, from Garden State, do so, keep in mind though he takes risk most of us on the forum not only see wrong but will not do or advocate for. We don't advocate for mixing species, Chris does this. We don't advocate using sand, Chris does this. We don't advocate keep him pairs, not sure if Chris does or not. We don't advocate letting a tortoise that is not native to brumate on its own or outside.
This forum and most of its members learned the correct ways by other members that have done experiments and learning of their own for many years and shared with us, so we don't have to take the risks.
There are a few different ways, however some of those are risky to your tortoise and he pays for it.
Even rescuing a turtle off the road and taking it home is not the correct way to rescue a turtle. They will spend years trying to find a way back to what they know as their territory, the territory you took them out of. The proper way is to move them off the road in the direction they were going.
You will do fine. People tend to share their problems, not the good things. Just relax and take it step by step.
I am really not deciding to follow any one person, be it GST or this thread. I do my research and then use my common sense and pick what i feel is the best way forward. I believed GST when he advised that the hermanns or russian was the best to start out with. I chose to believe this forum that 2 together could be problematic. As far ad sand goes, 1 bag sand to 4 cu ft topsoil seems to me to be safe. I do not believe a turtle knows which part of a thousand acre woods he is in. All i want to do is get them as far away from any road thats possible. Theres marshland, creeks, mature woods right here. Thats where i release them.
Littleredfootbigredheart
Well-Known Member
I for one am loving seeing what you’re coming up with! It’s clear how much time and work you’re putting in which is so wonderful!
Word of advice from someone who when first researching, presumed it’s best to cover multiple sources of information to cover absolutely all bases, boy oh boy all it did was cause confusion! Don’t get me wrong, garden state for example isn’t the worst source of information, but he does have certain methods that are questionable and have been proved to cause issues if you look into them on here. Being new to the hobby, you genuinely can’t go wrong using this place as your only source of information, you can challenge the members on their answers to get to the nitty gritty of the information you need, many of them have raised different species, perfecting their care throughout the years by trial and error, sometimes learning the hard way, but it’s all documented here and is a great learning tool for others to not have to go through the problems they’ve encountered. The more you learn here to help understand why certain common practices are outdated or incorrect, you can use other sources to your advantage and filter out the bad. Until then I’d recommend using this as your hive mind lol.
It can probably all feel a bit negative looking through common problem after problem, but as said already, tortoises are easy to keep bad for years and years, hardy by nature, but will eventually take its toll, to try and put a more positive spin on things, for every thread you’ve read with a problem, was the perfect opportunity for someone to get the answers they needed to help their tortoise, and now fellow keepers can come across those posts to also get the answers they need. Be it a sad or happy outcome, those posts can now potentially save so many tortoises!
I wouldn’t use a top soil, unless composted yourself, there’s no way of know exactly what plants have gone into it, sand can pose an impaction risk.
I’d go for coco coir and orchid bark/cypress mulch
As someone who is new to the forum, I have posted a couple of my concerns, I think they were pretty valid and still ongoing, but hopefully i'm heading in the right direction. I would think it's quite normal for people to over worry and be concerned as first time owners, especially with hatchlings. I have to say, the feedback and help from the community has been absolutely superb.
Thanks. My topsoil was the bagged raised bed variety. From home depot. The ratio of bagged topsoil to sand is 3:1. Compaction should not be a problem. Yes, i know i am overthinking this!I for one am loving seeing what you’re coming up with! It’s clear how much time and work you’re putting in which is so wonderful!
Word of advice from someone who when first researching, presumed it’s best to cover multiple sources of information to cover absolutely all bases, boy oh boy all it did was cause confusion! Don’t get me wrong, garden state for example isn’t the worst source of information, but he does have certain methods that are questionable and have been proved to cause issues if you look into them on here. Being new to the hobby, you genuinely can’t go wrong using this place as your only source of information, you can challenge the members on their answers to get to the nitty gritty of the information you need, many of them have raised different species, perfecting their care throughout the years by trial and error, sometimes learning the hard way, but it’s all documented here and is a great learning tool for others to not have to go through the problems they’ve encountered. The more you learn here to help understand why certain common practices are outdated or incorrect, you can use other sources to your advantage and filter out the bad. Until then I’d recommend using this as your hive mind lol.
It can probably all feel a bit negative looking through common problem after problem, but as said already, tortoises are easy to keep bad for years and years, hardy by nature, but will eventually take its toll, to try and put a more positive spin on things, for every thread you’ve read with a problem, was the perfect opportunity for someone to get the answers they needed to help their tortoise, and now fellow keepers can come across those posts to also get the answers they need. Be it a sad or happy outcome, those posts can now potentially save so many tortoises!
I wouldn’t use a top soil, unless composted yourself, there’s no way of know exactly what plants have gone into it, sand can pose an impaction risk.
I’d go for coco coir and orchid bark/cypress mulch
Just an FYI. If you search for the info on turtles trying to get back to their territory after being moved out, you will find many sites, some reliable with turtle experience and studies, with the same answer.
Soil and sand should never be used as tortoise substrate. Please read this thread all the way through at least twice. Sand can cause impactions and its a skin and eye irritant. Sandy native dirt outside is fine. Store bought sand used indoors is frequently a problem. There is no way to know what composted material that soil is made of and it could be toxic. Soil makers add in all sorts of weird stuff to make their soil a good consistency for plant roots. They do not intend for small animals to be living in it or on it full time.
I can assure you that I'm no "fanatic". I am a graduate of the school of hard knocks. I made many mistake and followed the conventional wrong advice for decades to learn what I have learned. I've encountered my own problems, and I also work with many reptile vets that share their reptile cases with me. I've seen these problems many times fist hand and I try to help people avoid them.
Tortoises are easy and very enjoyable to keep with the right set up. The problem is that most people follow the wrong advice, have the wrong set up, and get sold the wrong stuff. Then they come here and we help them sort it all out. Many of us have never even needed to take our tortoises to a vet because it all just works and there are no problems.
This thread will help you avoid a lot of the common problems and have a positive tortoise keeping experience. Questions are welcome:
Info For New People. Please Read This First.
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Yes i learned something today. No more relocating box turtles.
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