Excited, Disappointed!

[Tom]

I do not believe a turtle knows which part of a thousand acre woods he is in. All i want to do is get them as far away from any road thats possible. Theres marshland, creeks, mature woods right here. Thats where i release them.

Yes i learned something today. No more relocating box turtles.

I didn't want to upset you further and argue, so I'm glad you figured this out on your own. They ABSOLUTELY know their own territory within a 1000 acre wood, and moving them out of it is often fatal in one way or another. Many of them never travel all that far from where they hatched. I worked in GA for several years recently, and I helped many a box turtle cross a busy road.

 

[Mrgeez]

I didn't want to upset you further and argue, so I'm glad you figured this out on your own. They ABSOLUTELY know their own territory within a 1000 acre wood, and moving them out of it is often fatal in one way or another. Many of them never travel all that far from where they hatched. I worked in GA for several years recently, and I helped many a box turtle cross a busy road.

I am very upset that i did this for 55 years!

 

[wellington]

I am very upset that i did this for 55 years!

If you had known, you wouldn't have done it. You did it out of love and concern for them. I'm sure many of us had done similar. When I was a kid, had I found a box turtle, I would have kept it. I know better now, and now would not.
I only pointed it out so you would know and not continue to do it. But we understand why you did.

 

[Mrgeez]

If you had known, you wouldn't have done it. You did it out of love and concern for them. I'm sure many of us had done similar. When I was a kid, had I found a box turtle, I would have kept it. I know better now, and now would not.
I only pointed it out so you would know and not continue to do it. But we understand why you did.

Thank you

 

[Tom]

I am very upset that i did this for 55 years!

Did you see them around your place after relocation? Ever see babies? I wonder how they fared? I wonder if they tried to go home, or not. In studies done here in CA, bears would travel 300 miles to get back to their territory or die trying. Any that did make it back were beat up pretty bad. Coyotes would travel up to 25 miles. Rattlesnakes would travel up to three miles to get home. Most of them didn't survive for very long if moved farther than these distances.

I've never seen studies on box turtle relocation, so maybe they are different. After 55 year of this, your place should be crawling with them, and that would be pretty neat. What have you observed? When I helped them cross the road in GA, they would just keep going in the direction they were already headed. I'd sit and watch them disappear into the brush.

 

[Mrgeez]

Did you see them around your place after relocation? Ever see babies? I wonder how they fared? I wonder if they tried to go home, or not. In studies done here in CA, bears would travel 300 miles to get back to their territory or die trying. Any that did make it back were beat up pretty bad. Coyotes would travel up to 25 miles. Rattlesnakes would travel up to three miles to get home. Most of them didn't survive for very long if moved farther than these distances.

I've never seen studies on box turtle relocation, so maybe they are different. After 55 year of this, your place should be crawling with them, and that would be pretty neat. What have you observed? When I helped them cross the road in GA, they would just keep going in the direction they were already headed. I'd sit and watch them disappear into the brush.

No i never saw any of them in my woods, but then again i never tried finding one.

 

[jaizei]

Substrate is minimum 8” deep. 6” of potting soil/sand mix with 2” coco coir. I hope this is deep enough if i have to hibernate them over the winters months, if i can’t adequately heat the enclosure.

What would your goal for the substrate to be? Are you planning on planting in it? Bioactive? I think that actual topsoil is less desirable in indoor enclosures. If you want something for planting, bioactive, or just a soil-like mix, I'd recommend making your own. Something akin to an ABG mix.

 

[Mrgeez]

What would your goal for the substrate to be? Are you planning on planting in it? Bioactive? I think that actual topsoil is less desirable in indoor enclosures. If you want something for planting, bioactive, or just a soil-like mix, I'd recommend making your own. Something akin to an ABG mix.

This is my 1st setup. I followed videos of others setups.
1. Yes i do have a tortoise blend of seeds to plant.
2. I might not be able to maintain 80 deg during the winter, so I thought if i have to hibernate them, that my substrate thickness would be adequate.
3. I have 60 sq ft of enclosure. Making my own was not feasible , hence i chose 12 large bags of raised bed potting soil, 5 bags playsand, and enough coir for hopefully 2” top layer.
4. Explain bioactive and ABG.

 

[jaizei]

This is my 1st setup. I followed videos of others setups.
1. Yes i do have a tortoise blend of seeds to plant.
2. I might not be able to maintain 80 deg during the winter, so I thought if i have to hibernate them, that my substrate thickness would be adequate.
3. I have 60 sq ft of enclosure. Making my own was not feasible , hence i chose 12 large bags of raised bed potting soil, 5 bags playsand, and enough coir for hopefully 2” top layer.
4. Explain bioactive and ABG.

Bioactive just means striving to achieve a more natural, soil-like substrate that also houses isopods, springtails, etc to try to create a self sustaining system. Actual soil is often not used, in favor of mixes like ABG. ABG refers to Atlanta Botanical Gardens, it's often considered the standard when discussing bioactive substrates, though after a while everyone tweaks the mix to their own liking.

As far as heating goes, I would consider heating the substrate. Depending on what temperature gradient you're shooting for, even 60-70* would help a lot. Heating the air/from above always leaves the substrates as a heat sink, using a controlled heat source from below would create a good base heat to build off of. And it would turn the substrate into a thermal mass that would help stabilize the temperature.

 

[Mrgeez]

Bioactive just means striving to achieve a more natural, soil-like substrate that also houses isopods, springtails, etc to try to create a self sustaining system. Actual soil is often not used, in favor of mixes like ABG. ABG refers to Atlanta Botanical Gardens, it's often considered the standard when discussing bioactive substrates, though after a while everyone tweaks the mix to their own liking.

As far as heating goes, I would consider heating the substrate. Depending on what temperature gradient you're shooting for, even 60-70* would help a lot. Heating the air/from above always leaves the substrates as a heat sink, using a controlled heat source from below would create a good base heat to build off of. And it would turn the substrate into a thermal mass that would help stabilize the temperature.

Yes. I definitely could do that with a radiant heater underneath w an insulated perimeter wall.
Thanks.

 

[wellington]

Yes. I definitely could do that with a radiant heater underneath w an insulated perimeter wall.
Thanks.

Just be aware that heat for a tortoise can not only come from below. They naturally basking in the sun, from above, which also heats the ground. So when using a heat mat/pig blanket on the ground/floor, a heat source should be above it. Any heat source that you might bury, not recommended by most more knowledgeable members, would have to be controlled so if the tort buried down, s/he wouldn't get burned.

 

[Mrgeez]

Just be aware that heat for a tortoise can not only come from below. They naturally basking in the sun, from above, which also heats the ground. So when using a heat mat/pig blanket on the ground/floor, a heat source should be above it. Any heat source that you might bury, not recommended by most more knowledgeable members, would have to be controlled so if the tort buried down, s/he wouldn't get burned.

A radiant heater would be beneath the wood floor , not in the substrate.

 

[The_Four_Toed_Edward]

Any one should be fine.

Is this reply in the wrong thread or am I missing something?

 

[wellington]

Is this reply in the wrong thread or am I missing something?

OMG, I have no clue how that could have happened. I was looking at the pics in the thread this response should have posted. Yes, wrong thread. Thanks for catching that. Very weird.

 

[The_Four_Toed_Edward]

OMG, I have no clue how that could happened. I was looking at the pics in the thread this response should have posted. Yes, wrong thread. Thanks for catching that. Very weird.

No worries! Just figured out that it is best to ask As a moderator you must have lots of tabs open at once!

 

[Tom]

A radiant heater would be beneath the wood floor , not in the substrate.

A radian heat panel under wood is not going to do anything.

I would not use bottom heat with a tortoise. It goes against their instinct to dig down into the earth when they feel too warm. In the wild, when it's too hot topside, they dig down to get away from the heat. If you are heating from below, they keep digging down farther, and it just gets hotter, so they dig down more and more until they are right on top of the heat source. Many get burned this way. Best to heat from the top. Best to contain your heat from the top with a large closed chamber. If this is an open table design, you can heat it with CHEs, RHPs and basking bulbs, but you will need quite a lot of electricity for that and it will likely heat up the whole room, which is not a bad thing for the tortoise.

I use radiant oil heaters that are meant to heat rooms in a house to maintain the ambient temps in my reptile room. You could do something similar to maintain ambient temp in your tortoise table room. For any temperate species, you can set the ambient room temp to 65-70 and then just have heat lamps on timers for day time basking. Would that work for your situation?

 

[Alex and the Redfoot]

A radian heat panel under wood is not going to do anything.

I would not use bottom heat with a tortoise. It goes against their instinct to dig down into the earth when they feel too warm. In the wild, when it's too hot topside, they dig down to get away from the heat. If you are heating from below, they keep digging down farther, and it just gets hotter, so they dig down more and more until they are right on top of the heat source. Many get burned this way. Best to heat from the top. Best to contain your heat from the top with a large closed chamber. If this is an open table design, you can heat it with CHEs, RHPs and basking bulbs, but you will need quite a lot of electricity for that and it will likely heat up the whole room, which is not a bad thing for the tortoise.

I use radiant oil heaters that are meant to heat rooms in a house to maintain the ambient temps in my reptile room. You could do something similar to maintain ambient temp in your tortoise table room. For any temperate species, you can set the ambient room temp to 65-70 and then just have heat lamps on timers for day time basking. Would that work for your situation?

Tom, but don't they burrow in cold weather to escape from cold (as ground temperature is more stable)? This looks more natural - low ambient air temperature, radiant heat at basking area and higher ground temperatures (that's what your nightboxes with Kane mat and RHP imitate, I guess).

Of course, trapping a tortoise between 105F from above and 105F from below is not natural and goes against their instincts but noone suggests that.

 

[Tom]

Tom, but don't they burrow in cold weather to escape from cold (as ground temperature is more stable)?

They do during brumation, yes. But not when they are up and basking and eating. In practice, under tank heating often leads to burns.

 

[Mrgeez]

A radian heat panel under wood is not going to do anything.

I would not use bottom heat with a tortoise. It goes against their instinct to dig down into the earth when they feel too warm. In the wild, when it's too hot topside, they dig down to get away from the heat. If you are heating from below, they keep digging down farther, and it just gets hotter, so they dig down more and more until they are right on top of the heat source. Many get burned this way. Best to heat from the top. Best to contain your heat from the top with a large closed chamber. If this is an open table design, you can heat it with CHEs, RHPs and basking bulbs, but you will need quite a lot of electricity for that and it will likely heat up the whole room, which is not a bad thing for the tortoise.

I use radiant oil heaters that are meant to heat rooms in a house to maintain the ambient temps in my reptile room. You could do something similar to maintain ambient temp in your tortoise table room. For any temperate species, you can set the ambient room temp to 65-70 and then just have heat lamps on timers for day time basking. Would that work for your situation?

Yes. Thats the plan.

 

[jaizei]

I know this thread is not about sulcatas, but literally the argument thats made on this forum for never letting sulcatas experience colder temperatures, even though there are colder nights (50s) in their native range is that they are in their nice warm, 80 degree burrow.

Perhaps the instinct is not to dig down to get away from the heat, but rather retreat into the earth to avoid extremes, both hot and cold.

Though speaking of Russians or other testudo, its interesting how "natural" is brought up when the premise of keeping them warm to prevent brumation is itself not natural.

Everyone is free to believe whatever they like, allow themselves to be limited, but heating from below/in the substrate can be done perfectly safe.