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ChiKat

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IMO these are just people who are raising their tortoises the way they believe is best!
Try to look past the word "experiment" if that is bothering you :)
 

Mao Senpai

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terryo said:
I NEVER get involved with these angry debates, and I'm sure this one will turn out to be one of them, but I just have to comment on this thread.
I think this is a ridiculous thread too, and I don't think it has anything to do with the "experiment" at all.......unfortunately.
I notice that groups are starting to form here, and I think it's very sad. Sometimes I read the threads from when the forum just started, and I see how everyone was so friendly and had a common goal. Now, the debate section has turned into a school yard. Remember when you were a little kid, and there were groups in the school yard, each wispering about the other group? Very sad.
I absolutely agree with Maggie and Yvonne's post. I think it's fun to watch the torts grow and see how people are doing things differently in different parts of the country. As long as the tortoises are getting the best care, and they are, what is the harm in calling it an experiment?

I agree with this. Besides, no one is holding a gun to your head saying you gotta raise your tort this way or it'll be a bad tortoise.
 

Angi

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The first time I saw the word experiment on a thread I thought" Oh how awful".but after reading a bit about it I found it to be harmless and benificial. I think Tom's experiments are very good. And no I am not a friend of Tom's just someone who has come to respect him. Isn't life about experimenting. I experiment with my children and my dogs. I really don't get scientific results or anything like that, but I think it is good to experiment with what foods they do better on etc...
 
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stells

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I think its crazy that someone has said they like trial and error... yes maybe trial and error is ok when trying a new haircut... but keeping living animals??? you like trial and error then???

I'm afraid you are wrong Terry... its nothing to do with a group... its my opinion on what i feel about it... and as this forum values everyones opinion i thought i would state it...

The thing that bugs me the most about these... is they are posted up straight away... before the person doing the "experiment" knows it is going to work... which potentially could land tortoises in trouble... i did mention that in my original post
 

Jacqui

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stells said:
The thing that bugs me the most about these... is they are posted up straight away... before the person doing the "experiment" knows it is going to work... which potentially could land tortoises in trouble... i did mention that in my original post

I like the fact that we are told of these experiments as they are begun and along the way. If gives us thoughts and ideas of things we may not have given thought to and may spark an idea as to where our own keeping is lacking (or exceeding in). Just generally makes us think better keeper in the long run.

If we wait til the end, first off the experimenter may have lost focus along the way or may not keep as well documented as he or she might if these experiments are kept public. I myself would rather be watching the testing unfold, so if it does look promising and sounds like a good idea, I can use the information to tweak my husbandry. You may want to wait for ten years of study before the work is allowed out for all of us to see, but if something is looking good I want to have that better way being applied to my tortoise as soon as possible, so my tortoises life is improved as soon as possible.

We all pretty much are experimenting every day we keep these unique animals, these folks are just calling it that. Yes they could just say, "This is how I am raising my hatchlings currently...", but they choose to use the term experimenting.

From my experience everything we do could "potentially could land tortoises in trouble". For example showing you keep a water dish in their enclosure. How many hatchlings have drown in a water dish? OR should we not show hides or suggest them, because some tortoises find away to fall off them onto their backs and die before they get righted? Of course not. You can not protect every tortoise from everything. By clearly marking these different attempts at raising these tortoises as experiments, these caretakers are using a term that should point out to folks that these methods are in the testing stage only.

Sorry Kelly, on this subject I completely disagree with you. Just as in real life, I am happy to hear we have actual humans out there taking experimental drugs and being in experimental studies on a wide range of health issues that may in the future, when the testing is done, improve life for all of us, the same holds true for my tortoises.
 
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stells

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TBH... it doesn't matter to me who agree's... and who doesn't... some do... some don't...

I just wanted to get my opinion out there.. as i really don't understand why people have to state them as "experiments"

I also agree that things can happen with the day to day keeping of tortoises... but the same could be said about other pets... but you don't see us "experimenting" on our domesticated animals... because that would be seen as cruelty...

I also as stated before i know that these "experiments" are going to take some time... but if people are truely dedicated to it and weren't so bothered about earning brownie points... the time scale wouldn't be an issue...

As humans we have a mind of our own... and a voice of our own to agree... on being experimented on... but i'm guessing you wouldn't see a typed up report about it when that experiment was ongoing... you would hear about it... but wouldn't have all the data until the experiment had reached its conclusion...

Thanks for making me think about it all a little more Jacqui... its certainly given me a few idea's
 

yagyujubei

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ex·per·i·mentNOUN
ex·per·i·ments plural

1. scientific test: a test, especially a scientific one, carried out in order to discover whether a theory is correct or what the results of a particular course of action would be
"a chemistry experiment"
2. doing something new: an attempt to do something new or to see what will happen
"switching to decaf as an experiment"
3. use of repeated tests and trials: the use of tests and trials in order to make discoveries
"developed the protocol by experiment"
INTRANSITIVE VERB
ex·per·i·ment·ed past and past participle
ex·per·i·ment·ing present participle
ex·per·i·ments 3rd person present singular

1. try new things: to try out new methods of doing or using things
"a reluctance to experiment with new ingredients"
2. science carry out scientific test: to carry out a scientific test of a theory or process
[ 14th century. Directly or via Old French < Latin experimentum "trial, test" < experiri "try out" ]
ex·per·i·men·ta·tion NOUN
ex·per·i·ment·er NOUN
Thesaurus
NOUN
Synonyms: trial, test, research, experimentation, tryout
VERB
Synonyms: test, try out, investigate, try, trial
Translations
 

Jacqui

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stells said:
... but the same could be said about other pets... but you don't see us "experimenting" on our domesticated animals... because that would be seen as cruelty...

Interesting, could yo explain this a bit more to me? I think living life is all an experiment. I "experiment" with different types of flea products, every few years I might experiment with a new brand of food, I experiment with different flavors of food, which toy works best with my animals, and the list goes on. How is that seemed as cruel? To me it's a part of life, just with the label of experiment or doing a home trial.

It seems to me, that it is just the term that is really causing all of us problems. I think the term "experiment" carries a lot of negative baggage with it. We visualize Frankenstein or small, cute, defenseless animals in small cages being subjected to cruel, horrible, and painful lives.

No animal is being harmed in these experiments. All care is what they already would be getting in these private homes already. It's just different styles of care. The only difference is we are using the same clutch of tortoises in order to make it more equal. (This is and actually most all specific comments in this post are based on the Tom experiments with the four groups of 3...just to keep things clear)


stells said:
I also as stated before i know that these "experiments" are going to take some time... but if people are truely dedicated to it and weren't so bothered about earning brownie points... the time scale wouldn't be an issue...

Brownie points, hmmm I would rather have just plain brownies, chewy ones of course. :D

Why I guess some folks could do threads on their experiments for brownie points, I honestly do not think that is the case here. To me they are brave. By the virtual fact that they are sharing this information at the start of the experiment and as it progresses, they are setting themselves up to be lowered in the eyes of this group, if an animal dies especially. I think they are brave. I think one reason, besides the wanting to share their lives and what they are doing to test things with these tortoises is just the fact they are so excited.

To me this is no different then if we (we, because both you and I have dogs), were on a dog forum and I made a thread saying.. "Hey, did you guys see the new type of dog food Brand Zeemeee has out? I got some last week and my dogs seem to like it. Waiting to see, how the food works on Raine's skin issues". Would you think bad of me for publicly, at the very start, letting all of you know I was experimenting on my dogs? With friends you would share small things like that and from the beginning. To me, this forum is one of my families or groups of internet friends if you prefer, so we can share the small things in life as we go along.


stells said:
As humans we have a mind of our own... and a voice of our own to agree... on being experimented on

For the most part yes, but not our young children. Then again, what say so do any of our pets actually have? We have the responsibility to act on their behalf to make choices for them that we deem are or have potential to be in their best interest, which is what these experiments are trying to do.

stells said:
... but i'm guessing you wouldn't see a typed up report about it when that experiment was ongoing... you would hear about it... but wouldn't have all the data until the experiment had reached its conclusion...


If this was a formal or official scientific medical experiment you would actually see articles about the work in progress. You would not see details, just generalities at that time. Folks let the public know what they are doing to validate grants and get more money, get more volunteers to do the studies on, and to just share their enthusiasm. These experiments are not being done in such a formal way. They are designed to be shared with our TFO friends. To get feedback from them along the way. In a way, the members in here our kinda like an ethic committee over seeing each person, which is very much also in the best interest of the tortoise.:cool:


stells said:
Thanks for making me think about it all a little more Jacqui... its certainly given me a few idea's

That's the whole point, for each of us to take the comments made by the "other side" and try to see where they are coming from. With luck, even if neither side ends up totally agreeing with each other, maybe we can move closer to each others opinion. It is fine for all of us to disagree. Think how boring this place would be, if we were all carbon copies of each other. :( Exchanging ideas leads to new ideas and growth in all parties.

I am glad what I wrote made you think, because what you have written certainly has made me think a bit, too. I don't think either of us are going to change our thoughts on this subject, but just the friendly exchange makes sharing our thoughts worthwhile I think. :D
 

terryo

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"I guess i am just a person who doesn't feel the need to big myself up by doing such things"


"but if people are truely dedicated to it and weren't so bothered about earning brownie points... the time scale wouldn't be an issue..."

All your posts are credible Kelly, and we all should respect each others opinions and learn from each other, but when you throw things in like these statements, it looks like it is nothing more than a personal issue, and you loose your credibility. IMHO..of course.
 
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stells

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Flea treatments... brands of food... etc have all been tried and tested before they go on the market... so the experimenting has already been done... trying an already tried and testing product is more down to preference of a marketed product... and which you prefer... not experimentation...

I don't experiment on my children... i have thought about it... but fear the authorities might have something to say about that :p :D Children certainly have rights too... the court case where one divorced her parents springs to mind...

I can do friendly... i think my English dry humour must just come across as wrong to alot of people here :D Its certainly easier than a barrage of unfriendly comments which i have fallen victim to in the past...
 

exoticsdr

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Yag to the rescue! Thank you for the definitions...+1

This is "stir-the-pot" thread if I've ever seen one and for no other reason to try to get under the skin of a well respected member because of the semantics of a posting and the "cherry picking" of the definition of a word to fit a idiotic agenda....but this is just my humble opinion.

yagyujubei said:
ex·per·i·mentNOUN
ex·per·i·ments plural

1. scientific test: a test, especially a scientific one, carried out in order to discover whether a theory is correct or what the results of a particular course of action would be
"a chemistry experiment"
2. doing something new: an attempt to do something new or to see what will happen
"switching to decaf as an experiment"
3. use of repeated tests and trials: the use of tests and trials in order to make discoveries
"developed the protocol by experiment"
INTRANSITIVE VERB
ex·per·i·ment·ed past and past participle
ex·per·i·ment·ing present participle
ex·per·i·ments 3rd person present singular

1. try new things: to try out new methods of doing or using things
"a reluctance to experiment with new ingredients"
2. science carry out scientific test: to carry out a scientific test of a theory or process
[ 14th century. Directly or via Old French < Latin experimentum "trial, test" < experiri "try out" ]
ex·per·i·men·ta·tion NOUN
ex·per·i·ment·er NOUN
Thesaurus
NOUN
Synonyms: trial, test, research, experimentation, tryout
VERB
Synonyms: test, try out, investigate, try, trial
Translations
 
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stells

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Thanks for the constructive use of your views and your insight into this thread...

Most helpful???

Nah not really... i expected nothing less from you TBH...

exoticsdr said:
Yag to the rescue! Thank you for the definitions...+1

This is "stir-the-pot" thread if I've ever seen one and for no other reason to try to get under the skin of a well respected member because of the semantics of a posting and the "cherry picking" of the definition of a word to fit a idiotic agenda....but this is just my humble opinion.

yagyujubei said:
ex·per·i·mentNOUN
ex·per·i·ments plural

1. scientific test: a test, especially a scientific one, carried out in order to discover whether a theory is correct or what the results of a particular course of action would be
"a chemistry experiment"
2. doing something new: an attempt to do something new or to see what will happen
"switching to decaf as an experiment"
3. use of repeated tests and trials: the use of tests and trials in order to make discoveries
"developed the protocol by experiment"
INTRANSITIVE VERB
ex·per·i·ment·ed past and past participle
ex·per·i·ment·ing present participle
ex·per·i·ments 3rd person present singular

1. try new things: to try out new methods of doing or using things
"a reluctance to experiment with new ingredients"
2. science carry out scientific test: to carry out a scientific test of a theory or process
[ 14th century. Directly or via Old French < Latin experimentum "trial, test" < experiri "try out" ]
ex·per·i·men·ta·tion NOUN
ex·per·i·ment·er NOUN
Thesaurus
NOUN
Synonyms: trial, test, research, experimentation, tryout
VERB
Synonyms: test, try out, investigate, try, trial
Translations
 

Angi

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Just to make things clear what I concider experimenting on my children is seeing if they do better in school or feel better during the day when they have a whole fruit smoothie everyday for breakfast or taking red dye out of their diet to see if they quit getting head aches. With my dogs I have added the Chinese herbs that I eat to their food. The result I got with this was my Rat Terrier quit chewing on his leg. When I took him off the herbs he started chewing again. So no I am not putting my children at risk or doing things to my dog that the dog food company's have already done. In fact I did not think about it being an experiment until I read your tread. I thought of it as finding ways to make thoughs I love healthier. And when it comes to food I do not trust the goverment or the FDA. I think they are a bunch of crooks that try to get us to eat garbage and are motivated by $$$$$$. Sorry for going off but I felt I had to defend myself as a mother.
 

onarock

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Doc, you know I love ya man, but I have to respectfully disagree with your comments:( If your reference to this respected member is who I think it is, then everything must be questioned. Im sure youve been paying attention, like we all have, and I'm sure you read a recent post where this respected member out and out states that certain opinions that he is very passionate about, argued endlessly about, are not his own, based on his own experience, but the opinions of no less than 7 others. You all should have payed close attention to those words and go back and read my threads/posts on the matter. I think you will have a clear understanding of my possision now. Having said all of the above, we should CONTINUE to question everything.

Dont care about Yagyujube's definition.....its not the point of this thread.

Once again, like my self, I think Kelly is advocating responsability, but because people are assuming that she is referring to this certain member...maybe she is, maybe shes not...people get ruffled. I wonder how many people actually read what is written on these threads and pay attention to it. I think most only care about the feeling of the post, or was someone nice to them, not did if learn something and is this person writing the post legit. They want to be patronized to death and see that this person was probably number 1 or 2 to bump their rating a point after being on the forum for a week.

We will never be able to have an open, honest discussion on this forum about husbandry, husbandry experiments and the like, because there are just too many here that are emotionally invested in to one side of the coin. I have tried many times. Go back and read it all. It starts out civil...with some questions...turns into war.
 

Angi

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I respect a lot of people on here On a Rock is one of them, Tom Yvonne, Maggie, Kristina, Terry and more have given me and others great imfo and help. Her post just seemed.... um crabby to me. Like she was trying to pick a fight.
 

exoticsdr

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Rock....you da man, but your coming to the defense of one individual is no different than me coming to the defense of another, we all have those that we respect and those that we don't, so I will leave that alone..for now.

As for Yag's definition, it is exactly the point of this thread and very well brought up. To even assume that anyone (well almost anyone) on this forum is referring to "experiments" as some kind of mad scientist approach to raising tortoises, where the torts are subjected to "evil" doings in order to see if they survive, thrive or benefit is assinine and above MOST members on this forum.

As I said before, this thread is nothing more than a low brow attempt to character assassinate while pretending to look like a concerned patron....poppycock! as they might say.
 
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stells

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You have your views of me... Kelly... Her... She!!!

I know the reasoning for me posting this thread... you don't know me... Paul... who has chatted with me... get its... gets what it is about... but even if he didn't agree with myself... that doesn't mean that i would respect himself and his husbandry any less...

I haven't posted this thread... and walked away... and watch it explode...thats stirring the pot... i have read replies... i have thought about them... i have replied to people... and have had discussions about it too...

It seems to me the ones that have to post the kind of replies as you have just done... are the ones that want to stir the pot... and get me to bite...

I guess that barrage if unfriendly comments i was talking about earlier... isn't going to stop anytime soon!!!
 

EricIvins

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stells said:
Flea treatments... brands of food... etc have all been tried and tested before they go on the market... so the experimenting has already been done... trying an already tried and testing product is more down to preference of a marketed product... and which you prefer... not experimentation...

I don't experiment on my children... i have thought about it... but fear the authorities might have something to say about that :p :D Children certainly have rights too... the court case where one divorced her parents springs to mind...

I can do friendly... i think my English dry humour must just come across as wrong to alot of people here :D Its certainly easier than a barrage of unfriendly comments which i have fallen victim to in the past...

Things may be tried and tested in a Lab, but they haven't been tested by me, for me, and the situation(s) I'm in.........Therefore, I'll experiment with something to see if it works for me.......Or my Tortoises for that matter........If you don't like it, I really don't care......I know what either works, or may work for me........That's what matters......
 

Kristina

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All I will say is this, if me attempting to raise my Sulcatas OUTSIDE in a habitat that is as closely replicated as possible to their natural habitat, to see if I can achieve a steady rate of healthy growth, without artificial lighting, food, heat sources, etc, constitutes animal cruelty, then I guess I better give up tortoise keeping right this instant.

I could give a crap less about "brownie points." At the end of the day, when I log off this forum I go back to my real world and the things that happen here have not affected it or my tortoises in any negative way whatsoever. Maybe I learned about a new edible plant, or got an idea to research the mean temperatures and average rainfall in the Sahel based on something written by someone else. But that is the extent of it.

I am here on this forum daily for the plain and simple reason that I want to help other people's tortoises. I have never yet heard of an instance where my advice killed someone's tortoise. In fact, I have saved many, both through my advice and by taking in and turning the lives of some that were horribly cared for completely around. I rarely even post about those things. I don't need to.

I am really sorry that you feel this way about my "experiment." I don't know anyone else that has raised a Sulcata 100% outside from less than two weeks of age (I am sure someone has, but I don't know about it personally,) so unfortunately that is what it is, an experiment. Trying something different. But I am absolutely going to keep doing it and keep posting about it.
 
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