Extreme difference in growth

[Hoodoo_man]

Hi, I have two juvenile Brazilian RF's/Cherryheads. They are approximately 6 months apart in age. They are genetically similar, having the same parents, but from different clutches. I am concerned because the growth of my younger tort., Domino, is greatly outpacing the growth of my older tort., Robin. More than I would expect from genetic variation. While Domino is the more aggressive of the two, I have not noticed her actually shutting Robin out of food.

I'm wondering if anyone can give me things to look for as to why Robin may not be growing appropriately? I am kind of concerned.

 

[JoesMum]

They need splitting up. The smaller one is being bullied by the larger one and is likely to get very sick indeed if they're left together.

Groups of redfoot can do very well together and they're one of the better species when it comes to bullying. However the behaviour you describe is a clear case of one telling the other to leave now

 

[TechnoCheese]

What you are seeing is what happens when you house tortoises in pairs. Most tortoises generally should not be kept in pairs because there is always a dominant and a subordinate, and both are constantly stressed. Groups can work because the stress is spread out, and they are able to establish a pecking order.

They need to be separated.

 

[SweetGreekTorts]

I would recommend separating them. I had the same situation with two Russian Tortoise hatchlings, sisters from the same clutch. They even hatched the same day. One was growing and easily doubled in size while the other was not.

They are only 4 months old right now, but giving the smaller one her own space has made a world of difference! She's eating more, she's basking, and she's putting on weight. Before, all she would do was burrow and hide from her sister. I'll be keeping them separate so they both continue to thrive.

 

[Hoodoo_man]

Thanks for the quick responses! To provide some more background: I am reluctant to separate them, as they have been together since Domino was a hatchling. Over a decade, now, and I have only had this problem for ~ the last year? They seem much more active together, and have usually been fairly cooperative (in the sense of one being the smart one, and one being the dim but adventurous younger sister who just jumps off things ). Would it be ok to just separate them for feeding, possibly temporarily? They have a fair amount of space currently, and Robin is often the more active one?
Thanks again.

 

[TechnoCheese]

Thanks for the quick responses! To provide some more background: I am reluctant to separate them, as they have been together since Domino was a hatchling. Over a decade, now, and I have only had this problem for ~ the last year? They seem much more active together, and have usually been fairly cooperative (in the sense of one being the smart one, and one being the dim but adventurous younger sister who just jumps off things ). Would it be ok to just separate them for feeding, possibly temporarily? They have a fair amount of space currently, and Robin is often the more active one?
Thanks again.

No. One is being bullied, and they are definitely stressed by each other. They will definitely be much happier once separated.

 

[Cheryl Hills]

The bullying may have just started because the are sexually maturing. They should still be separated. It will only get worse with time.

 

[ZEROPILOT]

I agree with the above.
In most cases of a pair of any species being housed together, one of them will prosper and grow much larger than the other.
Redfoot are probably the calmest and least likely species to actually fight or to do physical harm to each other. But they do still bully in less obvious ways. And its just as destructive to them.
It is indeed stressful for both of them. They are solitary animals and if they could speak to you, they'd say "get that other tortoise out of here!"

 

[ZEROPILOT]

Now. If you do separate them. One may indeed spend some time initially looking for the other.
Get rid of the human emotion that they miss each other. It'll be the dominant one looking for the submissive one.
It will pass and they'll both settle down.
Trust us. Tortoises HATE having company. And things like following each other around and sleeping together isn't because they're B.F.F.s
Been there....
Trying to understand true tortoise nature takes some doing. But you'll end up with healthier tortoises and a keeper that can relax.

 

[Hoodoo_man]

Thanks again. @ZEROPILOT: I know torts are traditionally solitary animals, but RF's are more social than most. To set my mind at ease, what is following each other around and sleeping together-as a preference-indicitave of? From a humanocentric view, it seems like affection. Can you offer another explanation? I'm not challenging your opinion-just trying to figure out what's best for my torts.
Thanks again to everyone!

 

[TechnoCheese]

Thanks again. @ZEROPILOT: I know torts are traditionally solitary animals, but RF's are more social than most. To set my mind at ease, what is following each other around and sleeping together-as a preference-indicitave of? From a humanocentric view, it seems like affection. Can you offer another explanation? I'm not challenging your opinion-just trying to figure out what's best for my torts.
Thanks again to everyone!

Following and “snuggling” are one tortoise trying to chase and crowd the other tortoise out of it’s territory. It’s like yelling “this space is occupied, get out!” And is an extremely common sign of aggression, along with sitting on food, sitting nose to nose, climbing on top of each other, and just being together in general.

 

[ZEROPILOT]

What she said.
Following and sleeping together are like saying. "I'm not going to leave you alone".
If you notice. It'll almost always be the same tortoise doing the following. And the stalking.
If you ever find two Redfoot that actually CAN cohabitate. They're going to do the exact opposite.
They'll each have their own area to sleep in. Not ever interacting much.
This can in rare circumstances and with a large enough enclosure, be accomplished with females. Or non sexually mature males.
It can also be possible with several females and just one Male. Again. With a large enough enclosure. Mine is currently about 280 square feet. And houses one adult and one yearling. They seem to never even notice each other. Perfect!
But I would never, ever attempt this with a sexed pair or with 2 known males.
With a very large enclosure with many hides, plants, etc. Tortoises can seek out places to get away from any unwanted bullying. And with a lot of space and several females, any aggressive Male (or female) can spread the aggression out to more than one other tortoise. Or hopefully when given enough room, the aggression might not even present itself. When I had 7 tortoises, I grew my enclosure to 425 square feet and had bushes, pots, two ponds and two night houses. It was still on the small side.
If you have an acre or two, you could have a dozen hides and dozens of Redfoot. Size is key.
Please, for the sake of any other readers, keep in mind that we are talking Redfoot here.
These are the most peaceful species. But if you know what you're looking at, you'll be able to see signs that there could be or actually is an issue even with these.
Your small Redfoot is probably eating ok but not be able to digest correctly. It's all very stressful.

 

[Grandpa Turtle 144]

I hope this helps you .

 

[Tom]

Thanks again. @ZEROPILOT: I know torts are traditionally solitary animals, but RF's are more social than most. To set my mind at ease, what is following each other around and sleeping together-as a preference-indicitave of? From a humanocentric view, it seems like affection. Can you offer another explanation? I'm not challenging your opinion-just trying to figure out what's best for my torts.
Thanks again to everyone!

"Social" meaning groups, not pairs. Pairs are a bad idea. Groups can frequently work with RFs and other species.

 

[TammyJ]

Hi, I have two juvenile Brazilian RF's/Cherryheads. They are approximately 6 months apart in age. They are genetically similar, having the same parents, but from different clutches. I am concerned because the growth of my younger tort., Domino, is greatly outpacing the growth of my older tort., Robin. More than I would expect from genetic variation. While Domino is the more aggressive of the two, I have not noticed her actually shutting Robin out of food.

I'm wondering if anyone can give me things to look for as to why Robin may not be growing appropriately? I am kind of concerned.

Hi, can we see some pictures of these tortoises to see the difference in size, and in their enclosure? Have you got space to separate them so that each one can have its own space?

 

[Hoodoo_man]

Thanks again, everybody! It looks like I have been severely misinterpreting some behaviour. I had noticed some of the "bullying" type behaviour, but it seemed to be directed both ways, so I hadn't really worried. It looks like I'll have to separate them. I don't have room in their current enclosure, but I can probably set something up fairly quickly. I'll try to get some pics.

 

[ZEROPILOT]

That's great.
Quite a few new members have gotten upset at our initial answers and have left the forum.
We're not here to scare people away or upset them.
We're here to help.
You'll see how easy it gets as soon as you have everything "dialed in". So don't get discouraged.

 

[Grandpa Turtle 144]

That's great.
Quite a few new members have gotten upset at our initial answers and have left the forum.
We're not here to scare people away or upset them.
We're here to help.
You'll see how easy it gets as soon as you have everything "dialed in". So don't get discouraged.

A lot of new members come for help and want to learn . And thoughts get a lot of help and they stay as I have .
But a few come to argue every point and Boy do they get what they want !
I’m not afraid to say I’ve learned a lot
In the years I’ve been here . And there is a lot of great people here to give great advise .

 

[Yvonne G]

Thanks for the quick responses! To provide some more background: I am reluctant to separate them, as they have been together since Domino was a hatchling. Over a decade, now, and I have only had this problem for ~ the last year? They seem much more active together, and have usually been fairly cooperative (in the sense of one being the smart one, and one being the dim but adventurous younger sister who just jumps off things ). Would it be ok to just separate them for feeding, possibly temporarily? They have a fair amount of space currently, and Robin is often the more active one?
Thanks again.

It's not a matter of the food, or eating. The more dominant tortoise is CONSTANTLY telling the subordinate tortoise to get out of the territory. Not just at feeding time, but ALL THE TIME! It is very stressful on both of them. If I'm understanding correctly, they've been together for 10 years or so. This tells me that one or both of them are reaching sexual maturity. A mature male tortoise will not stand for another tortoise to live in his territory.

You've asked for our help, and every one who has replied to your thread has warned you they need to be separated. Do what you want, but if you keep them together, plan on one of them getting sick and dying.

 

[Relic]

I know it's a somewhat apples-to-oranges comparison, but years ago I hatched a clutch of 3-Toed box turtles, raised them indoors over the winter, and took this photo shortly before moving them outside. Plenty of food scattered broadly so all could eat without competition, yet the differences in growth - even with the same genetic background - was startling...