Eyes shut again!

[Tom]

Can anyone advise whats the best thing to take him to the vets in please? Am
Worried about him not having heat for some time

This is a husbandry issue and there is nothing a vet will do but make it worse.

You've got your heating and lighting info all mixed up. Strip lights are fine, but what kind are you using? Is it an Arcadia 12% HO in a reflector hood, or a T8 10.0? Do you have a Solarmeter 6.5 to check UV levels? The strip light doesn't provide any basking heat, and that is likely why your tortoises eyes are closed up.

MVBs will cause pyramiding, and their UV output runs the spectrum from way too much to none at all. They shouldn't be used. They do give off heat, but you can't use your heat lamp with a thermostat and have the "sun" turning on and off all day. Thermostats are for ambient heating devices, not your basking lamp. The basking lamp needs to be set on a timer, and the temperature controlled by adjusting the height, or the bulb wattage, or by using a rheostat to dial it in. You need a flood type bulb for this. Arcadia makes them.

There are four elements to heating and lighting:

1. Basking bulb. I use 65 watt incandescent floods from the hardware store. Some people will need bigger, or smaller wattage bulbs. Let your thermometer be your guide. I run them on a timer for about 12 hours and adjust the height to get the correct basking temp under them. I also like to use a flat rock of some sort directly under the bulb. You need to check the temp with a thermometer directly under the bulb and get it to around 95-100F (36-37C).
2. Ambient heat maintenance. I use ceramic heating elements or radiant heat panels set on thermostats to maintain ambient above 80 degrees day and night for tropical species. In most cases you'd only need day heat for a temperate species like Testudo or DT, as long as your house stays above 60F (15-16C) at night. Some people in colder climates or with larger enclosures will need multiple CHEs or RHPs to spread out enough heat.
3. Ambient light. I use LEDs for this purpose. Something in the 5000-6500K color range will look the best. Most bulbs at the store are in the 2500K range and they look yellowish. Strip or screw-in LED bulb types are both fine.
4. UV. If you can get your tortoise outside for an hour 2 or 3 times a week, you won't need indoor UV. In colder climates, get one of the newer HO type fluorescent tubes. Which type will depend on mounting height. 5.0 bulbs make almost no UV. I like the 12% HO bulbs from Arcadia. You need a meter to check this: https://www.solarmeter.com/model65.html A good UV bulb only needs to run for 2-3 hours mid day. You need the basking bulb and the ambient lighting to be on at least 12 hours a day.

Get the heating and lighting correct, and this problem should solve itself.

Most of the care info you find on the internet is going to be wrong. 40-50% humidity is fine for a grown adult, but too low for a growing baby. And higher humidity does NOT cause skin or breathing problems, or all of the 1000s of babies I've produced over the years would all be dead. That is typical wrong info and from a vet site no less.

If you want this baby to survive, read the care sheet that Lyn posted in post number 31 and follow it. A trip to the vet is likely to make things worse because vets don't know tortoise care. They will likely misdiagnose the problem, make a futile attempt to treat the symptoms, and never address or correct the CAUSE of the problem.

 

[Ardelle]

I think a cardboard box lined with paper towels, with a good layer of substrate would be fine, especially in this weather - he won't get cold. Wrap a cotton towel round the box as well.
Good luck to you and twigs
Angie

Have read your guide it’s brilliant thanks, I will get rid of the flood bulb and swap to a normal led and ceramic heat bulb is the heat bulb ok to use with a thermostat?

 

[Ardelle]

This is a husbandry issue and there is nothing a vet will do but make it worse.

You've got your heating and lighting info all mixed up. Strip lights are fine, but what kind are you using? Is it an Arcadia 12% HO in a reflector hood, or a T8 10.0? Do you have a Solarmeter 6.5 to check UV levels? The strip light doesn't provide any basking heat, and that is likely why your tortoises eyes are closed up.

MVBs will cause pyramiding, and their UV output runs the spectrum from way too much to none at all. They shouldn't be used. They do give off heat, but you can't use your heat lamp with a thermostat and have the "sun" turning on and off all day. Thermostats are for ambient heating devices, not your basking lamp. The basking lamp needs to be set on a timer, and the temperature controlled by adjusting the height, or the bulb wattage, or by using a rheostat to dial it in. You need a flood type bulb for this. Arcadia makes them.

There are four elements to heating and lighting:

1. Basking bulb. I use 65 watt incandescent floods from the hardware store. Some people will need bigger, or smaller wattage bulbs. Let your thermometer be your guide. I run them on a timer for about 12 hours and adjust the height to get the correct basking temp under them. I also like to use a flat rock of some sort directly under the bulb. You need to check the temp with a thermometer directly under the bulb and get it to around 95-100F (36-37C).
2. Ambient heat maintenance. I use ceramic heating elements or radiant heat panels set on thermostats to maintain ambient above 80 degrees day and night for tropical species. In most cases you'd only need day heat for a temperate species like Testudo or DT, as long as your house stays above 60F (15-16C) at night. Some people in colder climates or with larger enclosures will need multiple CHEs or RHPs to spread out enough heat.
3. Ambient light. I use LEDs for this purpose. Something in the 5000-6500K color range will look the best. Most bulbs at the store are in the 2500K range and they look yellowish. Strip or screw-in LED bulb types are both fine.
4. UV. If you can get your tortoise outside for an hour 2 or 3 times a week, you won't need indoor UV. In colder climates, get one of the newer HO type fluorescent tubes. Which type will depend on mounting height. 5.0 bulbs make almost no UV. I like the 12% HO bulbs from Arcadia. You need a meter to check this: https://www.solarmeter.com/model65.html A good UV bulb only needs to run for 2-3 hours mid day. You need the basking bulb and the ambient lighting to be on at least 12 hours a day.

Get the heating and lighting correct, and this problem should solve itself.

Most of the care info you find on the internet is going to be wrong. 40-50% humidity is fine for a grown adult, but too low for a growing baby. And higher humidity does NOT cause skin or breathing problems, or all of the 1000s of babies I've produced over the years would all be dead. That is typical wrong info and from a vet site no less.

If you want this baby to survive, read the care sheet that Lyn posted in post number 31 and follow it. A trip to the vet is likely to make things worse because vets don't know tortoise care. They will likely misdiagnose the problem, make a futile attempt to treat the symptoms, and never address or correct the CAUSE of the problem.

Have read your guide it’s brilliant thanks, I will get rid of the flood bulb and swap to a normal led and ceramic heat bulb is the heat bulb ok to use with a thermostat?

This is a husbandry issue and there is nothing a vet will do but make it worse.

You've got your heating and lighting info all mixed up. Strip lights are fine, but what kind are you using? Is it an Arcadia 12% HO in a reflector hood, or a T8 10.0? Do you have a Solarmeter 6.5 to check UV levels? The strip light doesn't provide any basking heat, and that is likely why your tortoises eyes are closed up.

MVBs will cause pyramiding, and their UV output runs the spectrum from way too much to none at all. They shouldn't be used. They do give off heat, but you can't use your heat lamp with a thermostat and have the "sun" turning on and off all day. Thermostats are for ambient heating devices, not your basking lamp. The basking lamp needs to be set on a timer, and the temperature controlled by adjusting the height, or the bulb wattage, or by using a rheostat to dial it in. You need a flood type bulb for this. Arcadia makes them.

There are four elements to heating and lighting:

1. Basking bulb. I use 65 watt incandescent floods from the hardware store. Some people will need bigger, or smaller wattage bulbs. Let your thermometer be your guide. I run them on a timer for about 12 hours and adjust the height to get the correct basking temp under them. I also like to use a flat rock of some sort directly under the bulb. You need to check the temp with a thermometer directly under the bulb and get it to around 95-100F (36-37C).
2. Ambient heat maintenance. I use ceramic heating elements or radiant heat panels set on thermostats to maintain ambient above 80 degrees day and night for tropical species. In most cases you'd only need day heat for a temperate species like Testudo or DT, as long as your house stays above 60F (15-16C) at night. Some people in colder climates or with larger enclosures will need multiple CHEs or RHPs to spread out enough heat.
3. Ambient light. I use LEDs for this purpose. Something in the 5000-6500K color range will look the best. Most bulbs at the store are in the 2500K range and they look yellowish. Strip or screw-in LED bulb types are both fine.
4. UV. If you can get your tortoise outside for an hour 2 or 3 times a week, you won't need indoor UV. In colder climates, get one of the newer HO type fluorescent tubes. Which type will depend on mounting height. 5.0 bulbs make almost no UV. I like the 12% HO bulbs from Arcadia. You need a meter to check this: https://www.solarmeter.com/model65.html A good UV bulb only needs to run for 2-3 hours mid day. You need the basking bulb and the ambient lighting to be on at least 12 hours a day.

Get the heating and lighting correct, and this problem should solve itself.

Most of the care info you find on the internet is going to be wrong. 40-50% humidity is fine for a grown adult, but too low for a growing baby. And higher humidity does NOT cause skin or breathing problems, or all of the 1000s of babies I've produced over the years would all be dead. That is typical wrong info and from a vet site no less.

If you want this baby to survive, read the care sheet that Lyn posted in post number 31 and follow it. A trip to the vet is likely to make things worse because vets don't know tortoise care. They will likely misdiagnose the problem, make a futile attempt to treat the symptoms, and never address or correct the CAUSE of the problem.

Have read your guide it’s brilliant thanks, I will get rid of the flood bulb and swap to a normal led and ceramic heat bulb is the heat bulb ok to use with a thermostat?

 

[Ardelle]

Hi Tom its a 12% with reflective hood.

I have swapped back to the strip with a flood light for heat and am adjusting the height. The MVB was only used for a few weeks in a attempt to fix the last eye issue.

So I will change to a
Normal LED and a ceramic heater , can my ceramic bulb be used in the arcadia ceramic reflective clamp lamp fitting or do I need new?

 

[Ardelle]

So is this bulb ok? And I have a 150W ceramic heat bulb just unsure if its ok with the fitting I have the clamp lamp

 

[Ardelle]

The bulb

 

[Ardelle]

Lamp fitting is it ok to put the Ceramic heater in

 

[TammyJ]

Everything Tom tells you is the correct information and the best way to save your tortoise.
I repeat yet again: your baby tortoise must be kept in a closed indoor enclosure with the correct conditions.
I endorse Tom's opinion re the vet visit! Just try to follow Tom's care sheets. Please.
Good luck!!! You obviously really care about your tortoise.

 

[TammyJ]

This is a husbandry issue and there is nothing a vet will do but make it worse.

You've got your heating and lighting info all mixed up. Strip lights are fine, but what kind are you using? Is it an Arcadia 12% HO in a reflector hood, or a T8 10.0? Do you have a Solarmeter 6.5 to check UV levels? The strip light doesn't provide any basking heat, and that is likely why your tortoises eyes are closed up.

MVBs will cause pyramiding, and their UV output runs the spectrum from way too much to none at all. They shouldn't be used. They do give off heat, but you can't use your heat lamp with a thermostat and have the "sun" turning on and off all day. Thermostats are for ambient heating devices, not your basking lamp. The basking lamp needs to be set on a timer, and the temperature controlled by adjusting the height, or the bulb wattage, or by using a rheostat to dial it in. You need a flood type bulb for this. Arcadia makes them.

There are four elements to heating and lighting:

1. Basking bulb. I use 65 watt incandescent floods from the hardware store. Some people will need bigger, or smaller wattage bulbs. Let your thermometer be your guide. I run them on a timer for about 12 hours and adjust the height to get the correct basking temp under them. I also like to use a flat rock of some sort directly under the bulb. You need to check the temp with a thermometer directly under the bulb and get it to around 95-100F (36-37C).
2. Ambient heat maintenance. I use ceramic heating elements or radiant heat panels set on thermostats to maintain ambient above 80 degrees day and night for tropical species. In most cases you'd only need day heat for a temperate species like Testudo or DT, as long as your house stays above 60F (15-16C) at night. Some people in colder climates or with larger enclosures will need multiple CHEs or RHPs to spread out enough heat.
3. Ambient light. I use LEDs for this purpose. Something in the 5000-6500K color range will look the best. Most bulbs at the store are in the 2500K range and they look yellowish. Strip or screw-in LED bulb types are both fine.
4. UV. If you can get your tortoise outside for an hour 2 or 3 times a week, you won't need indoor UV. In colder climates, get one of the newer HO type fluorescent tubes. Which type will depend on mounting height. 5.0 bulbs make almost no UV. I like the 12% HO bulbs from Arcadia. You need a meter to check this: https://www.solarmeter.com/model65.html A good UV bulb only needs to run for 2-3 hours mid day. You need the basking bulb and the ambient lighting to be on at least 12 hours a day.

Get the heating and lighting correct, and this problem should solve itself.

Most of the care info you find on the internet is going to be wrong. 40-50% humidity is fine for a grown adult, but too low for a growing baby. And higher humidity does NOT cause skin or breathing problems, or all of the 1000s of babies I've produced over the years would all be dead. That is typical wrong info and from a vet site no less.

If you want this baby to survive, read the care sheet that Lyn posted in post number 31 and follow it. A trip to the vet is likely to make things worse because vets don't know tortoise care. They will likely misdiagnose the problem, make a futile attempt to treat the symptoms, and never address or correct the CAUSE of the problem.

This baby is being kept in an open enclosure inside the house. This has apparently not changed.

 

[Ardelle]

Thank you I am just getting ready to go get the bulbs, I had wanted twigs for years so yes really do love him!

Feel awful I have got it wrong but hopefully I can fix it

 

[JDawks]

I can’t believe am back with twigs again, his eyes shut a month or so ago and did start to open, however past few weeks hes closed them again even to eat.

Hes eating and drinking well I just have to hold food still! I included grated carrot weekly now to make sure its not vitamin A deficiency.

I swapped my strip light for a mercery vapour bulb that I can position higher

He did have a hide ect but had to remove as has flipped himself over a few times

I am posting some photos of the enclosure and readings am hoping someone might be able to spot the problem.

I have also noticed his face is getting darker but believe this might be age?

Thanks in advance

Have you tried using topsoil? I use a mix of topsoil and coco coir - the woodchip substrate can irritate their eyes.

 

[Ardelle]

This baby is being kept in an open enclosure inside the house. This has apparently not changed.

I do not live by a large pet store however after being told to get a closed cage today I will look at getting one

 

[Ardelle]

Have you tried using topsoil? I use a mix of topsoil and coco coir - the woodchip substrate can irritate their eyes.

I am using coca and cryprus mulch which I read on here is best

 

[Tom]

The bulb

1. This bulb looks like a flood bulb. This is good for basking during the day. Set it on a timer for around 13 hours. Adjust the fixture up or down to get the temperature under it around 36-37C. Check the temperature by laying a digital thermometer on its back directly under the bulb and letting it cook for an hour. Raise or lower the fixture until the thermometer reads around 36C and stays that way for a while. Its normal for it to be cooler in the morning and a few degrees warmer in the afternoon and this range is fine. Try to keep it under 39-40 at the hottest part of the day and above 34-35 in the cooler mornings after a chilly night. It takes some fiddling with to get it right and it can change with the seasons.
2. The Arcadia 12% strip bulbs are great. It needs to be around 45-50cm above the tortoise, but use a meter to verify you are getting enough UV, but not too much. A separate timer set for 2-3 hours mid day is all that is needed for this one.
3. Run the CHE on a thermostat. At 19C you normally would not need this, but since you are having an issue, it is better to keep things a little warmer at night for a while. I'd set the thermostat to around 22-23. Look at the fixture and see what wattage it is rated for. It should be rated for at least 300 watts if you are going to use a 150 watt CHE in it. You would probably be fine with a 150 watt fixture for a 150 watt bulb, but CHEs run hot, and I like to be careful.
4. A LED strip or screw-in type bulb in the 5000-6500K color range, set on the same timer as the basking bulb, should complete the package nicely and giver your tortoise all the heat and light it needs.

 

[TammyJ]

I do not live by a large pet store however after being told to get a closed cage today I will look at getting one

A large plastic storage container will do!!! Any hardware or department store has them.

 

[TammyJ]

Have you tried using topsoil? I use a mix of topsoil and coco coir - the woodchip substrate can irritate their eyes.

Topsoil is not good. Orchid bark fine grade or coco coir is best. Information learned here from a very experienced reptile expert - Tom. @Tom

 

[Ardelle]

Thank you I will get that
Bulb and also a new fitting for the ceramic. Its a good 150w fitting, but I can possibly use it with the flood bulb.

I will make all these changes asap, living in a small town with few pet shops I might have to rely on amazon

 

[Tom]

Have you tried using topsoil? I use a mix of topsoil and coco coir - the woodchip substrate can irritate their eyes.

This is terrible advice. Soil should never be used as tortoise substrate. It is made form composted yard waste and a wide assortment of other weird stuff, and there is no way to know what is in it. Could be something toxic or an impaction risk. Soil makers do not intend for small animals to be living in or on their product.

This poster is not using wood chips. She is using coco coir and cypress mulch which are both safe, and do not produce eye irritating dust when kept properly damp.

A lot has changed over the years about our knowledge of tortoise husbandry here with the members of this forum. Most of what you find out in the world is all the old wrong info. I welcome you to the forum and hope we can help advance your tortoise husbandry knowledge too. If you scroll back to post number 31, there is a link to a thread for the current correct care for temperate species. It may be an eye opener for you. Questions and conversation are welcome.

 

[Tom]

Thank you I will get that
Bulb and also a new fitting for the ceramic. Its a good 150w fitting, but I can possibly use it with the flood bulb.

I will make all these changes asap, living in a small town with few pet shops I might have to rely on amazon

That is better anyway. Pet shops give terrible tortoise advice and sell you all the wrong products.

 

[Ardelle]

Hi all,
I went to the vet appointment just so they could look at him, they didn’t suggest any injections but did weigh him and said he should be a lot bigger for his age.

Apparently they have seen a lot of horsefeilds recently that are extremely small so questioned where I got him.

They agreed with the suggested changes to heat and lighting on here and think its 50/50 if twigs will survive am absolutely devastated.

I did question when I purchased him as he was the smallest out of the two they had if it would mean anything health wise and they assured me it wouldn’t make a difference.

He is around 10 months and his shell is around 8cm in lenth