When we adopted our 2 juvenile CDTs 8 weeks ago, Gomez weighed 15 oz. Now he weighs 17.5 oz. Morticia weighed 11.5 oz. Now she weighs 13 oz. Is this a healthy growth rate? (Both weigh-ins were post-soak).
Healthy growth rate for a CDT
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In my opinion, yes, your growth rate is fine. This is debatable. Most people who keep DTs are very old school in their thinking about growth rates, water, humidity and feeding. My experience with DTs, sulcatas and leopards over the last few years has given me reason to think that some of this old school thinking might need to be "re-thought".
Thanks for the input, Tom. I guess we'll stick to the routine, since they seem to be doing well. I was thinking of adding Mazuri to their diet but I don't know that they need it. Grass, weeds, greens, cactus pads and veggies with a little calcium 2 times a week and soaks 2 times a week seems to be getting it done.
I happen to be one of the oldies on this part of the statement
Absolutely an essential source needs to be available at all times, for drinking, soaking and just to get luscious in
A multitude of micro climates should be ones goal in maintaing a tortoise in a forced captive situation---regardless of species---but with this species constant high levels of "wet" and "high humid" enclosures would not be what I would strive for...
As much native foods as possible is my goal---and I also add in high water content foods, especially during the hottest months of tortoise season.....I will give an entire head of the selected romaine, red or green leaf lettuce to each adult men here and they will consume the entire thing as though they have not eaten for years....they also will graze on the native goodies....
So, I have always though that there are some tried and true old fashion ways and some new, not so old fashion ways that should compliment one another....
Good post Angela. I agree with every point, except maybe the first. I'm pretty sure you are pretty hip to the new information, as well as the old.
I don't think any tortoise "needs" Mazuri. Most DT keepers don't use it, in my experience. I use it almost like a vitamin supplement. I feed it to my tortoises once or twice a week to make sure their aren't any deficiencies in their diets. If your tortoises are thriving and growing well on grasses and weeds, I see no reason to introduce it. Mazuri does cause accelerated growth. The more you feed it the faster they grow. For a tortoise housed in dry conditions, like a typical SoCal backyard, this could contribute to pyramiding.
thatrebecca said:
I don't think any tortoise "needs" Mazuri. Most DT keepers don't use it, in my experience. I use it almost like a vitamin supplement. I feed it to my tortoises once or twice a week to make sure their aren't any deficiencies in their diets. If your tortoises are thriving and growing well on grasses and weeds, I see no reason to introduce it. Mazuri does cause accelerated growth. The more you feed it the faster they grow. For a tortoise housed in dry conditions, like a typical SoCal backyard, this could contribute to pyramiding.
Got it. Many thanks to you both. It's so great to have a variety of experienced keepers on this forum to consult with.
thatrebecca said:
Amen to that. Aha. I swoon over the experienced keepers on this forum and their kindness in sharing their gotta-lotta-time-doing-this knowledge.
Thanks so much. : )
And someday, some.day, may I be lucky enough to have a CDT of my very own! Love the gopherus!
You know I came on to ask this exact same question. My Arizona Desert Tortoises are 1.75oz and 2.2oz right now. They're about 8 months old now.
They're extremely active, their eyes are bright, nostrils clear, they're bathed daily and go out in the sun for a bit in the mornings since it's too hot to leave them outside in my opinion (it's expected to get up to 106 later this week), calcium supplements once a week, they get a nice varied diet of nopal cactus pads, evening primrose, dyssodia, curly mesquite grass, globemallow leaves (something ate the buds before they flowered and no more grew in time), and sometimes they'll nibble their desert lavender. I also sometimes give them produce greens like turnip, or maybe some grated carrot or squash as a treat.
. . . I'm really not the best with humidity other than soaking them in warm water. I don't even know where I'd start to be quite honest. They do have slight pyramiding but since I switched them to this more varied diet in March and all new growth has been flat...
I feel like I've done something wrong. They weighed 1.6oz and 1.4oz in March. :/ In a three month span that's a .6oz growth for the "big" one, Morgan, and a .35oz growth for the "runt", Merlin. If Gomez and Morticia have grown over an ounce each in two months time, it sounds like mine are a bit stunted?
They're extremely active, their eyes are bright, nostrils clear, they're bathed daily and go out in the sun for a bit in the mornings since it's too hot to leave them outside in my opinion (it's expected to get up to 106 later this week), calcium supplements once a week, they get a nice varied diet of nopal cactus pads, evening primrose, dyssodia, curly mesquite grass, globemallow leaves (something ate the buds before they flowered and no more grew in time), and sometimes they'll nibble their desert lavender. I also sometimes give them produce greens like turnip, or maybe some grated carrot or squash as a treat.
. . . I'm really not the best with humidity other than soaking them in warm water. I don't even know where I'd start to be quite honest. They do have slight pyramiding but since I switched them to this more varied diet in March and all new growth has been flat...
I feel like I've done something wrong. They weighed 1.6oz and 1.4oz in March. :/ In a three month span that's a .6oz growth for the "big" one, Morgan, and a .35oz growth for the "runt", Merlin. If Gomez and Morticia have grown over an ounce each in two months time, it sounds like mine are a bit stunted?
Gomez and Morticia just had their first weigh-in since June. Gomez has gone from 17.5 oz to 19 oz, Morticia from 13 oz to 13.5 oz.
Both of their growth rates have slowed since that first month we brought them home. I do wonder if some of that early weight gain was partly the effect of increased hydration, since they came from a no water bowl, no soaking house. Or do DTs grow faster in the spring? Either way they both seem to have hearty appetites still. What do folks think? Are we doing OK? Should I be concerned that Morticia (the 3-year-old) is growing more slowly than Gomez (the 5-year-old) or is that a reflection of their different ages?
Finally, I noticed no one ever answered Ellen about her two little DTs. Seems to me they're doing fine, and that their growth is obviously smaller because they're smaller to begin with. But I'm still a relative noob here.
Both of their growth rates have slowed since that first month we brought them home. I do wonder if some of that early weight gain was partly the effect of increased hydration, since they came from a no water bowl, no soaking house. Or do DTs grow faster in the spring? Either way they both seem to have hearty appetites still. What do folks think? Are we doing OK? Should I be concerned that Morticia (the 3-year-old) is growing more slowly than Gomez (the 5-year-old) or is that a reflection of their different ages?
Finally, I noticed no one ever answered Ellen about her two little DTs. Seems to me they're doing fine, and that their growth is obviously smaller because they're smaller to begin with. But I'm still a relative noob here.
This is, to me, the most important indicator of health...rapid growth in this species is not desirable...slow and steady--are desirable...
To me, this species really thrives if offered/allowed an earthen burrow for use during the good weather months when kept outdoors...this can be somewhat replicated indoors by the offer of a warm humid hide within the enclosure...this offers the tort the option to enter when they need to juicy up some as well as exit when they need to dry out some....of which both are important micro climates for the species....also, the warm water soaks are a fantastic thing to assure they remain hydrated....you can also spritz the food you offer as this will bring hydration in when they consume the food...
I will disagree with you, I don't see that anything is wrong
Get them soaked, get them natural sun time in a completely secure area...let them get lots of exercise and a good variety of food....they will do aok, sometimes we worry ourselves way to much and in doing so we continually change our routines too much which then does not allow the torts to get a secure routine...change and stress will be the biggest factors in a tort either thriving or failing...so if you are hitting all of the main needs of your species, then fall into routine and watch them thrive...They truly are an awesome tenacious rough tough and yet gentle species..enjoy the opportunity to host these beauties...
I think their growth settling down is normal...they have a good source of food and hydration now and likely realize it seems to be coming at a routine rate...so that is a good thing right.
I believe that the torts would have growth rate moreover in the months that they are active and actively consuming food and increased water intake....
Hearty appetites are such a good indicator of a healthy tort, of course it is not a tell all, but it alone tells us that their surroundings are going well, surroundings play such a huge roll in the motivation of a tort to eat, exercise, bask, sleep and all of these things help to ensure a healthy tort...
ascott said:
This is, to me, the most important indicator of health...rapid growth in this species is not desirable...slow and steady--are desirable...
To me, this species really thrives if offered/allowed an earthen burrow for use during the good weather months when kept outdoors...this can be somewhat replicated indoors by the offer of a warm humid hide within the enclosure...this offers the tort the option to enter when they need to juicy up some as well as exit when they need to dry out some....of which both are important micro climates for the species....also, the warm water soaks are a fantastic thing to assure they remain hydrated....you can also spritz the food you offer as this will bring hydration in when they consume the food...
I will disagree with you, I don't see that anything is wrong
They truly are an awesome tenacious rough tough and yet gentle species..enjoy the opportunity to host these beauties...
I think their growth settling down is normal...they have a good source of food and hydration now and likely realize it seems to be coming at a routine rate...so that is a good thing right.
I believe that the torts would have growth rate moreover in the months that they are active and actively consuming food and increased water intake....
Hearty appetites are such a good indicator of a healthy tort, of course it is not a tell all, but it alone tells us that their surroundings are going well, surroundings play such a huge roll in the motivation of a tort to eat, exercise, bask, sleep and all of these things help to ensure a healthy tort...
Thanks, Angela! As usual, you're full of helpful information!
Thank you so much for the information! Sadly most of their food has since been destroyed by dogs, but I finally set up a secure sunning enclosure in the pot that was decimated worse. I use slatted lawn chair for shade, I put out a bowl of water for them, and I scatter globemallow, mesquite, and whatever store greens I have at that time for them. I also found nopal pads at the store so I give them chunks of that in their food dish. I never thought of spritzing their "natural" food, but when I rinse the greens I leave them dripping wet. I'll have to give that a try!
Today I left them out there for two hours while I cleaned their indoor enclosure. They hated it. They were amused at first, but then they ate most of the food, plopped into their water dish, drank, got the water muddy, waddled around for a while, and I caught Morgan standing on Merlin's back trying to escape (the walls were still too high! Poor baby!) when I was finally ready to bring them back in and soak them.
I'm really going to need to think hard about how to make their hide humid. I tried replacing their log with a tupper ware with a moist towel over it (I think that was a suggestion from another thread here?) and they stopped using it so I changed it back. They really love that darn log. It's going to be sad when they can't fit under it anymore...
Today I left them out there for two hours while I cleaned their indoor enclosure. They hated it. They were amused at first, but then they ate most of the food, plopped into their water dish, drank, got the water muddy, waddled around for a while, and I caught Morgan standing on Merlin's back trying to escape (the walls were still too high! Poor baby!) when I was finally ready to bring them back in and soak them.
I'm really going to need to think hard about how to make their hide humid. I tried replacing their log with a tupper ware with a moist towel over it (I think that was a suggestion from another thread here?) and they stopped using it so I changed it back. They really love that darn log. It's going to be sad when they can't fit under it anymore...
Perhaps just be sure that their log is kinda near their heat source and then wet the substrate then layer a bit of dry substrate and then their log then cover the entire log with soil and pack it down so they will have a little hill to rest on as well as this will help to offer a warm humid hide...you can then place another log hide on the cool dry side of your enclosure...this way they can opt for what they need?
And the outside time is critical...so even if they seem to complain a bit ....they will totally benefit...
And the outside time is critical...so even if they seem to complain a bit ....they will totally benefit...
I did another weigh in today and Morgan's at a whopping 3.5oz and Merlin's 2.5oz. Everyone's starting to guess that Merlin's a girl while Morgan is a boy. I'm guessing worms, but I haven't seen anything anything in their poop to suggest it. I'll be taking them to the vet ASAP.
Huh I'm not quite as worried anymore. Still a bit worried that Merlin is slightly stunted compared to Morgan, but I found a study saying " They grew during the two-year study, having a 30% increase in body mass each year" and " During its first two years of life, a typical young tortoise used a total of about 175 g (dry matter) of food, equivalent to about 350 g fresh vegetation (3/4 of a pound) while growing from 34 to 55 g body mass."
So, unless my math is wrong, they've each gained more than 30% body mass in the last five months... They might be fat.... LOL
Young Desert Tortoise Survival: Energy, Water, and Food Requirements in the Field
Huh I'm not quite as worried anymore. Still a bit worried that Merlin is slightly stunted compared to Morgan, but I found a study saying " They grew during the two-year study, having a 30% increase in body mass each year" and " During its first two years of life, a typical young tortoise used a total of about 175 g (dry matter) of food, equivalent to about 350 g fresh vegetation (3/4 of a pound) while growing from 34 to 55 g body mass."
So, unless my math is wrong, they've each gained more than 30% body mass in the last five months... They might be fat.... LOL
Young Desert Tortoise Survival: Energy, Water, and Food Requirements in the Field
ellen said:
I'm confused, Ellen. Why do you think they have worms? They seem to be growing at a healthy rate to me.
Oh, we were just posting at the same time. See, your little guys are doing well!
I thought Merlin might, but I think Merlin's just growing at its own pace. When I found that study it settled my worries once and for all.
Ellen, if you suspect parasites, you can simply take a fresh sample of poo to the vet versus totally stressing out the tort by taking it to the vet...the vet needs the poo and not the tort
Again, their growth rate is fine...no need to worry...this is a species that does not, nor should it, grow rapidly...
Again, their growth rate is fine...no need to worry...this is a species that does not, nor should it, grow rapidly...
I was so embarrassed last time! I managed to get their poo there just fine-- but when I got there I'd forgotten all my money! So I had to take the hour long bus ride back home and just never went back. I realize they're fine now. I'm just overly worried because this is all still way too new. Haha I'll leave them alone now, poor babies. They'll prefer it much better when I stop babying them. They're looking more and more like adults every day. It's about time I start treating them like the precocious juveniles they truly are.
Next stop on the worry bus: brumation. Lol!
Next stop on the worry bus: brumation. Lol!
They will be fine, it may be you that will need the additional support during their rest, lol
ascott said:
They will be fine, it may be you that will need the additional support during their rest, lol
This will be my first brumation season, too, Ellen. We can worry together. And when we can't take it any more we'll bug Angela for reassurance.
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