help with diet and other things!!

darcyyarci

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hi, so i would like some assistance on what to feed my two sulcata tortoises to help w pyramiding. back to my tortoises, they are around 3/4 years old. during the summer they mostly ate grass and vitamins sometimes. you see these tortoises arent exactly mine, they're my sisters but my parents take care of them. the problem is that they don't do any research and therefore my tortoises grew up on solely grocery store produce and there was nothing i could do since i was and still am quite young. i know now that they are not the most healthy shell wise and need help. now they have quite bad pyramiding and recently for the past few months I've been trying to fix that with soaks, vitamins, none of that produce garbage, etc. but it's hard when my parents think they're "perfectly healthy" and they wont allow me to buy more things for them like calcium supplements and things. they do have a very nice area to walk in however with plenty of space and lots of grass. now that it is getting to be cold, my dad ordered the night heat lamp by exoterra and installed it in their outdoor open dog house where they sleep and leaves it on all night. is this okay? also, they have not been eating much which i expect since it is winter but they refuse to eat the orchard grass hay i give them so my dad feeds them the grocery store garbage instead. my tortoises seem well overall but shell wise not so much. what can i do to reduce the pyramiding? please dont be harsh, i am doing all i can to help them and their diet.. thank you!!

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Tom

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hi, so i would like some assistance on what to feed my two sulcata tortoises to help w pyramiding. back to my tortoises, they are around 3/4 years old. during the summer they mostly ate grass and vitamins sometimes. you see these tortoises arent exactly mine, they're my sisters but my parents take care of them. the problem is that they don't do any research and therefore my tortoises grew up on solely grocery store produce and there was nothing i could do since i was and still am quite young. i know now that they are not the most healthy shell wise and need help. now they have quite bad pyramiding and recently for the past few months I've been trying to fix that with soaks, vitamins, none of that produce garbage, etc. but it's hard when my parents think they're "perfectly healthy" and they wont allow me to buy more things for them like calcium supplements and things. they do have a very nice area to walk in however with plenty of space and lots of grass. now that it is getting to be cold, my dad ordered the night heat lamp by exoterra and installed it in their outdoor open dog house where they sleep and leaves it on all night. is this okay? also, they have not been eating much which i expect since it is winter but they refuse to eat the orchard grass hay i give them so my dad feeds them the grocery store garbage instead. my tortoises seem well overall but shell wise not so much. what can i do to reduce the pyramiding? please dont be harsh, i am doing all i can to help them and their diet.. thank you!!
Pyramiding has nothing to do with food. You've been reading the old wrong info. Pyramiding is CAUSED by growth in conditions that are too dry.

You are housing them all wrong too. Its much too cold outside for them, and a little heat lamp isn't going to keep them warm enough in winter in NV. Further, heat lamps will damage the top of the carapace on larger tortoises, and should not be used. It is because they are too cold that they aren't eating.

Their diet doesn't sound too bad. Some grocery store greens ore okay when mixed with hay, grass and other good stuff.

Finally, they should never be housed in pairs. They need to be separated.

Here is the correct care info: https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/t...leopard-or-star-tortoise.181497/#post-1814413

Here is how you should be housing them: https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/double-door-night-box.129054/#lg=attachment150106&slide=0

Or two of these with separate pens: https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/single-tortoise-night-box.181515/

Questions are welcome.
 

darcyyarci

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I'm not in an area of Nevada where it gets seriously cold. On average during this month at night the lowest is 30 degrees farenheit. I know that pyramiding can also be caused by lack of humidity but how is it that every single source i have read i have been told that food is also a cause of pyramiding? Also, their diet is mixed with hay yet they refuse to eat it and only eat the produce. What do you mean I can't house them in pairs? Should I just grow a second backyard to put the other one in? I can't do that. I have limited options here.
 

Tom

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I'm not in an area of Nevada where it gets seriously cold. On average during this month at night the lowest is 30 degrees farenheit. I know that pyramiding can also be caused by lack of humidity but how is it that every single source i have read i have been told that food is also a cause of pyramiding? Also, their diet is mixed with hay yet they refuse to eat it and only eat the produce. What do you mean I can't house them in pairs? Should I just grow a second backyard to put the other one in? I can't do that. I have limited options here.
Did you come here to get help, or to argue with people who know what they are talking about?

For a species that comes from an area where ground temps don't drop below 80 at any time of the year, 30 is too cold. Much too cold.

Every single source is repeating the same old wrong info that we all learned and taught for decades. Most people don't know better. We do. We are the ones who did the work and proved this.

Tortoises should never be housed in pairs. They are solitary animals and living as a pair is stressful for them. They don't want another tortoise around. One is dominant and one is submissive, and they need to be separated. You don't have to grow a new yard, you need to divide the yard you have into two separate enclosures. Did you look at the thread I linked for you?
 

Chubbs the tegu

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I'm not in an area of Nevada where it gets seriously cold. On average during this month at night the lowest is 30 degrees farenheit. I know that pyramiding can also be caused by lack of humidity but how is it that every single source i have read i have been told that food is also a cause of pyramiding? Also, their diet is mixed with hay yet they refuse to eat it and only eat the produce. What do you mean I can't house them in pairs? Should I just grow a second backyard to put the other one in? I can't do that. I have limited options here.
Suggestion.. care about ur torts health and not ur pride. Listen to Tom
 

Mrs.Jennifer

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I'm not in an area of Nevada where it gets seriously cold. On average during this month at night the lowest is 30 degrees farenheit. I know that pyramiding can also be caused by lack of humidity but how is it that every single source i have read i have been told that food is also a cause of pyramiding? Also, their diet is mixed with hay yet they refuse to eat it and only eat the produce. What do you mean I can't house them in pairs? Should I just grow a second backyard to put the other one in? I can't do that. I have limited options here.
I’m sorry if all this information is a shock to you. I experienced it as well when I first joined the forum. It can be overwhelming to find out that what you believed was solid research is now not helpful or healthy for your beloved tortoises. However, because I listened, let go of preconceived “knowledge” and let myself be “coachable,” my tortoise has a much better life. I am grateful to have found this forum and spent time gleaning important information from several experienced tortoise breeders/caretakers. I hope you can allow yourself to find this forum as invaluable as I have.
 

Yorkiemomma

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Pyramiding has nothing to do with food. You've been reading the old wrong info. Pyramiding is CAUSED by growth in conditions that are too dry.

You are housing them all wrong too. Its much too cold outside for them, and a little heat lamp isn't going to keep them warm enough in winter in NV. Further, heat lamps will damage the top of the carapace on larger tortoises, and should not be used. It is because they are too cold that they aren't eating.

Their diet doesn't sound too bad. Some grocery store greens ore okay when mixed with hay, grass and other good stuff.

Finally, they should never be housed in pairs. They need to be separated.

Here is the correct care info: https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/t...leopard-or-star-tortoise.181497/#post-1814413

Here is how you should be housing them: https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/double-door-night-box.129054/#lg=attachment150106&slide=0

Or two of these with separate pens: https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/single-tortoise-night-box.181515/

Questions are welcome.
Why can't they be housed in pairs? As long as they are not fighting etc.
 

Lyn W

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Tom

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Why can't they be housed in pairs? As long as they are not fighting etc.
Because they are solitary animals. Being forced to occupy the same territory is stressful on them, and pair dynamics are much too personal. Its one vs. one and there is always a winner and a loser. Its stressful for both of them.

In addition to the thread that Lyn linked, do a forum search for "pairs" and you can read about it for hours.
 

darcyyarci

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"For a species that comes from an area where ground temps don't drop below 80 at any time of the year, 30 is too cold." where exactly do they come from where it doesn't drop 80 any time of the year? just wondering tom.
 

Tom

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"For a species that comes from an area where ground temps don't drop below 80 at any time of the year, 30 is too cold." where exactly do they come from where it doesn't drop 80 any time of the year? just wondering tom.
They come from the Sahel region of Africa. South of the Sahara desert in a wide band across Africa. Ever heard the phrase "Africa hot"? They aren't kidding. Here in the Socal desert our ground temps are around 80 in summer and drop to around 50 in winter. This is very consistent year after year and you can look it up on US geological studies. In the region of Africa where sulcatas come from ground temps drop to 80 in the cooler part of the year and rise to 85 in the hottest part of the year. A cold day there would see a high of only 88 above ground at the weather data recording station. Hotter days might reach 114. It is always warm where they are.
how can i keep them warm?
I've been making sulcata night boxes since the 90s. I've tried and tried to make dog houses, deck boxes and plastic sheds work. They just don't. I started building my own boxes because nothing else worked well, and it evolved into this over time: https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/double-door-night-box.129054/#lg=attachment150106&slide=0

Or you could make two of these if you don't have a divided pen: https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/single-tortoise-night-box.181515/

These two threads show two different ways to effective and safely heat the boxes.
 

Lyn W

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Have you found the caresheet for sulcata torts in the species specific section yet?
That will tell you more about diet, temps substrate humidty etc.
They need warmth and a source of uvb (the sun if its warm enough, or lamps) to enable them to eat, digest their food properly and absorb minerals etc. and to stay healthy, so please follow the up tp date advice you find on TFO.
 

darcyyarci

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well.. those houses are really nice, and i wish i could build them. but for now, i can not do all the things you reccomend as i am too young to acquire those supplies. what are ways i can keep the current doghouse I'm using liveable for them?
 

Yossarian

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well.. those houses are really nice, and i wish i could build them. but for now, i can not do all the things you reccomend as i am too young to acquire those supplies. what are ways i can keep the current doghouse I'm using liveable for them?

Out of curiosity, how old are you?

As for the advice, People are telling you what your torts need to thrive and be happy and healthy. Their conditions right now are not suitable. Another member here recently lost her sulcata to a cold night not much colder than youve had this week. If you are unable to make these changes yourself then start working on getting help to make them. The two things that really need to change ASAP is the night box and separating them. We could help you make a plan for both that you could take to your parents and ask if they could help you implement them. Otherwise, reach out to friends and family, there are a lot of people that are willing to help out with things like this, someone might have some spare wood you could use, another friend or neighbor might have some skills in carpentry, etc. . . Caring for animals is a big responsibility, knowing what they need and not even trying to provide it is animal abuse by neglect. Ultimately if you and your family cannot provide what these torts need, you should consider rehoming one or both of them.
 
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darcyyarci

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I'm 13. I hope that doesn't make you take me any less seriously. Back to the tortoises, I decided I'm going to work on the night boxes. My grandpa has some really good skills with building things and such so I know he can help me. But my dad is sort of set on his doghouse thing with the lamp right now so I'm going to try and talk him in to it and update. As for seperating the yard how can i do that? My tortoises have this space of grass that I think is big enough but I'm not sure on what materials to separate it with and if it will be big enough once we do that.
 

darcyyarci

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Here are some pictures of the space they have with notes on some. 20201223_122744.jpg

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Yvonne G

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I'm so impressed with you! What a wonderful thing you're doing - trying to improve your tortoises' lives.

As for pyramiding, get that idea right out of your head. Those two tortoises look great. No, they're not perfectly smooth, but neither are they badly pyramided. They look fine!

Your problem is keeping them warm enough. Concentrate all your effort on how to keep them warm. If Grampa is willing to build a night box, that's great! Show him Tom's night box how to thread.

Good luck.I hope it works out for you and the tortoises.
 

Yossarian

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I'm 13. I hope that doesn't make you take me any less seriously.


Not at all, just wanted to get an idea how much help you might need. Your response is perfect, really happy to see you thinking about ways to overcome the obstacles, being young and without money doesnt mean you cant get it done if your committed.

As for a way to separate them, it doesnt have to be fancy, try to give both halves equal amounts of space and access to water and sunlight and shade. See what your grandfather thinks is doable there.
 

Aloysius Taschse

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Good luck with the new improvements you are making. Those sulcatas look happy! Keep us posted on the progress, tortoise enclosures have always been a favorite of mine!
 
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