How they grow .. and why..

[cdmay]

I am still fairly new to Redfoot tortoises, but that care sheet is the exact one I have been going with for my rescue. Well to be honest looking at it now I chose to listen to someone else on feeding schedule, but with reading this thread I'm considering shifting back to what you advocate.

Right now I have mine set up out in the tort shed where an ambient temp of about 85 is kept at tank level without any bulbs at all other than a light that sits in the general area.

I am still fairly new to Redfoot tortoises, but that care sheet is the exact one I have been going with for my rescue. Well to be honest looking at it now I chose to listen to someone else on feeding schedule, but with reading this thread I'm considering shifting back to what you advocate.

Right now I have mine set up out in the tort shed where an ambient temp of about 85 is kept at tank level without any bulbs at all other than a light that sits in the general area.

If you're new to red-foot tortoises this is the place to be.
We can help!

 

[saginawhxc]

That is why I'm here. I've learned so much about sulcatas from this site and I never even wanted one in the first place.

Now it feels like I'm starting all over again with redfoots. Granted I think I hit the ground running, but obviously I recognize I have MUCH to learn.

That is really the main reason I commented on the thread. To make sure it stayed easy to follow.

 

[Redfoot NERD]

Well... hmmmmm .. what are we going to do with a tortoise that is not traditionally a basking tortoise? The only time I've really seen my redfoot tortoises under the light is while eating.. their food dish is under the light ; )

[ I now have herbivorous - marginated tortoises - totally different mind-set ] They bask under a 'basking/heat' bulb ( not mvb ) ALL the time! The point is - the info from JoesMum [ and others ] may be fine for those reptiles .. but NOT for redfoot tortoises!

{ watch this now } Since I've never had a herbivorous tortoise before.. my mind-set had to change over FROM omnivorous/non-basking to herbivorous/basking ! What that means is:
If anyone from the herbivorous tortoise community.. enters the omnivorous tortoise community.. they must/can choose whether to make the mind-set change or not. Just like the mole.. some creatures - mammals or reptiles - are created to acquire the needed D3 from their diet [ the % / source varies ] !

 

[Redfoot NERD]

I agree, I keep asking. Does anyone know how a mole that lives under the ground and only eats worms gets its vitamin D to synthesize the calcium for good healthy bone growth. The only thing I can think of is the worms. Does that prove that Vit D is passed on when an animal consumes another living creature?

@Anyfoot are you talking about "animal protein" now - do you mean that these redfoot tortoises .. as well as some lizards.. and snakes.. are also carnivores?????????????? Some of these can't decide whether they are 'baskers' or not - Let's ask the Kingsnake man @cdmay !

 

[Redfoot NERD]

Wow Anyfoot....you raised that nice looking animal up in England? As Darth Vader would say, 'impressive!'
I'll only say this...both NERD and Anyfoot have produced super nice looking captive raised animals with a key factor that many don't seem to notice. Both of these guys tortoises have smooth shells (that's easy I think) but in addition, their animals have natural looking, flattened front leg scales. For whatever reason (I'm thinking dietary) many keepers are growing up nice looking smooth shelled red-footed tortoises but whose front legs scales are curled up like potato chips. This happened to me years ago with some hold-backs I raised for a few years. My suspicion at the time, and still is, was because I was feeding a lot of Mazuri tortoise chow which I personally think is a crappy staple food item. After that I raised a group of four of my neonates for 18 months but I strictly avoided any and all commercial 'chows' made for tortoises. All of them had nice normal looking front leg scales.
I'm guessing here but I would bet that NERD and Anyfoot are not feeding Mazuri to their growing kids.

YUCK Mazuri tortoise chow - it was created for the Aldabra and Gallops tortoises .. it has molasses in it. Another one of those "empty" commercial foods(?)

In case you haven't guessed already Carl.. no Mazuri here!!!!! I agree about diet.. the Mazuri turtle chow also has a dramatic affect on the continuous growth of water turtles! They ( Purina ) finally changed their formula.. making fish [ animal protein ] as the #1 ingredient. Maybe someday they will make a tortoise chow with animal protein as the #1 ingredient ?

 

[Anyfoot]

In my quest of research to find out if vitamins are passed on from prey to predator in the animal kingdom and how different species deal with the D3 intake. Some get it from diet and some from the sun.
Fruit bats are herbivores and are diurnal so they must get D3 from the sun.
All nocturnal bats are insectivores or omnivores, they must get D3 from the diet.
This is an example of how the same species family has adapted/evolved to suit their environment.

Then nurds snake post got me thinking.
Reptile scales are keratin, keratin doesn't absorb D3 into the bodies system I don't think(can't find any info on that).
Think I'm right in saying ALL snakes are omnivores, so they must get D3 from the diet because the scales stop UVB penetration. (Is there such a thing as a herbivore snake). Also I remember buying my incubator off a Python breeder, this guy had hundreds of trays with a snake in each one with nothing but a heat source warming the entire shelving system up.
Then I'm thinking back to torts, herbivores and omnivores.....
Herbivores go out and graze on grasses and weeds also absorbing UVB, presumably through the neck and any other areas that don't have scales on them, probably picking up the odd insect or slug that's on foliage too.
Omnivores don't graze to great extent, yes they go out in the open at times to forage for food, but they also keep under cover whilst foraging. So for example there may be a herd of reds out there in the wild that lives in a slightly open Savannah, there also maybe a herd out there in the wild that lives under a canopy for most part(yellowfoots and homeana hingebacks do) .
I don't think any herbivores intentionally seek out D3 from the sun, it just naturally happens when they graze, or when they want to bask. After all, if you had a uvb strip light at the opposite end of your enclosure to where the heat source is, a hermanns wouldn't go and sit under the UVB thinking I better get some D3. But it would go and sit under the none UVB heat source to bask.

Back to the redfoot now, when they are young and vulnerable surely they hide away for long long periods, they have a carapace, some scales and are hidden in the depths of undergrowth probably in deep shade, how's it get its D3, they must be eating insects,bugs and probably fungi in the undergrowth amongst the foliage, I would have thought.
I keep hearing some members saying "my redfoot basks". Yes maybe it does, but is it because it fancies a bit of a sunbathe and that's all.
If in the wild some reds live in the dense rainforest and some live in a bit more of an open area then mother nature has had to have combatted both scenarios regarding D3 for the same species, she made it an omnivore.

If any of this info I researched is wrong its Mr Google's fault not mine.

It's good this learning malarkey, wish I had found out when I was 10yrs old.

 

[ZEROPILOT]

I'm almost afraid to chime in here,but a lot of "truths" come down to location and circumstances.
For example, My Redfoot have never basked. I haven't observed it since i started keeping them in 1988.
But I live in south Florida and my tortoises get full sunlight every day. It's always warm enough. Often it's too warm.
Most of my herd will walk in the shadows of the walls or plants or just hide all day until the sun goes down.
It seems to me, and I'm still NO EXPERT, that if anything, full tropical sunlight truly bothers them.
Mine are also not effected by low humidity. It's very humid most of the year, but even during the rainy months, my tortoises will still visit the watering pools a few times a day to drink and to swim. Regardless of how humid it already is. They love water and being wet has been my observation.
Now. we are keepers from all over the globe here. Many different geographical areas and climates. It's perfectly understandable to see that so many of us are experiencing different things.
That doesn't change the facts. Just the perception.

 

[Anyfoot]

I agree Ed,

Example figures

If my torts are outside and its 80f in the sun and 70f in the shade they will go for the 80f in the sun.
If your torts are outside and its 80f in the shade and 90f in the sun yours will go for the shade at 80f. Both our torts went for 80f but mine could be seen as basking.

It's a safe bet to say you are closer to the Columbian climate than I am.
What do the wild Columbian reds do for D3 if they take cover in the shade like yours?

 

[cdmay]

I'm almost afraid to chime in here,but a lot of "truths" come down to location and circumstances.
For example, My Redfoot have never basked. I haven't observed it since i started keeping them in 1988.
But I live in south Florida and my tortoises get full sunlight every day. It's always warm enough. Often it's too warm.
Most of my herd will walk in the shadows of the walls or plants or just hide all day until the sun goes down.
It seems to me, and I'm still NO EXPERT, that if anything, full tropical sunlight truly bothers them.
Mine are also not effected by low humidity. It's very humid most of the year, but even during the rainy months, my tortoises will still visit the watering pools a few times a day to drink and to swim. Regardless of how humid it already is. They love water and being wet has been my observation.
Now. we are keepers from all over the globe here. Many different geographical areas and climates. It's perfectly understandable to see that so many of us are experiencing different things.
That doesn't change the facts. Just the perception.

Yep. I'm also in south Florida but have experienced very different findings. My enclosures are heavily shaded by large palms, hibiscus trees and cycads, as well as some Ficus trees. I also have a number of plant benches and they too provide cover.
Trust me, my guys bask. Even in the heat of the summer, they will be typically be found sprawled in the early morning sunlight. True, during the heat of our brutal summer they are deep in their hides and not moving until its almost dark. This is especially true if it is dry and windy. But this isn't because they hate the sunlight--but rather because it's so hot. But now that it's not so hot? Heck, they line up along my fence in the sun even at mid morning. They don't shun the light (= heat, remember they have dark shells that heat up fast) at all when it's mild.
But please keep this in mind...when some of us say the word 'bask' some folks get the idea of a painted turtle, or a river cooter, or slider basking on a log in full sun all throughout the day. These people cannot wrap their minds around a concept of the word basking that doesn't involve these extended sunbathing habits. That's not the basking I mean. When I say that my red-footed tortoises are basking in the sunlight I'm simply saying that they are intentionally putting themselves in the sunlight (either full or dappled) and are staying there for a period of time. Not all day, not even for hours on end. They are not painted turtles that then dive into 65 or 70 degree water after basking in the hot sun. So if they are in the sun for, let's say for 15 minutes (or less) once or twice a day, that's still basking. If they are in dappled sunlight they will stay there much longer. In either case they are absolutely taking in sunlight and benefiting from it.
I've pointed this out before but it has often fallen on deaf ears: people who have studied red-foot tortoises in various parts of their natural ranges in South America have routinely encountered them 'basking' (or just sitting, you decide what they were doing) in patches of sunlight in the forest, or along forest edges, or in other areas that are open to the sun. The friends of mine (Jim Buskirk, Thomas and Sabine Vinke, and others) who have found red-foots in the Gran Chaco of Paraguay and in Suriname have found nearly all of their specimens sitting in patches of sunlight or in places where they were similarly exposed.
Agree about the water though...turn on the sprinkler and they're out like crazy.

 

[ZEROPILOT]

Fair enough.
I don't usually get the chance to see what is going on first thing in the morning.
I know that they do emerge to get warm at some point. I've never thought of that as basking.
They regulate heat by coming in and out of the shade and by going into the heat, that would be basking.
Got ya!
My enclosure has no such cover and it's more or less 100% full sun or 100% shade.
Our situation is different even though we share the same geography.

 

[Anyfoot]

Yep. I'm also in south Florida but have experienced very different findings. My enclosures are heavily shaded by large palms, hibiscus trees and cycads, as well as some Ficus trees. I also have a number of plant benches and they too provide cover.
Trust me, my guys bask. Even in the heat of the summer, they will be typically be found sprawled in the early morning sunlight. True, during the heat of our brutal summer they are deep in their hides and not moving until its almost dark. This is especially true if it is dry and windy. But this isn't because they hate the sunlight--but rather because it's so hot. But now that it's not so hot? Heck, they line up along my fence in the sun even at mid morning. They don't shun the light (= heat, remember they have dark shells that heat up fast) at all when it's mild.
But please keep this in mind...when some of us say the word 'bask' some folks get the idea of a painted turtle, or a river cooter, or slider basking on a log in full sun all throughout the day. These people cannot wrap their minds around a concept of the word basking that doesn't involve these extended sunbathing habits. That's not the basking I mean. When I say that my red-footed tortoises are basking in the sunlight I'm simply saying that they are intentionally putting themselves in the sunlight (either full or dappled) and are staying there for a period of time. Not all day, not even for hours on end. They are not painted turtles that then dive into 65 or 70 degree water after basking in the hot sun. So if they are in the sun for, let's say for 15 minutes (or less) once or twice a day, that's still basking. If they are in dappled sunlight they will stay there much longer. In either case they are absolutely taking in sunlight and benefiting from it.
I've pointed this out before but it has often fallen on deaf ears: people who have studied red-foot tortoises in various parts of their natural ranges in South America have routinely encountered them 'basking' (or just sitting, you decide what they were doing) in patches of sunlight in the forest, or along forest edges, or in other areas that are open to the sun. The friends of mine (Jim Buskirk, Thomas and Sabine Vinke, and others) who have found red-foots in the Gran Chaco of Paraguay and in Suriname have found nearly all of their specimens sitting in patches of sunlight or in places where they were similarly exposed.
Agree about the water though...turn on the sprinkler and they're out like crazy.

Carl, do you think the priority purpose for yours basking is to thermoregulate or absorb the suns UV rays?

 

[Anyfoot]

Carl, do you think the priority purpose for yours basking is to thermoregulate or absorb the suns UV rays?

Thinking about it, this was probably not a good question to answer, apologies. So I've just gone to see if I can get a shot of one of mine basking/relaxing.
This is indoors with an ambient of around 82/84f, no intense heat source or UVB in sight. Does this mean they just love chilling out at a comfortable temperature.
Yes, she's dirty as always. My adults dig huge holes in the soil inside the caves, as deep as themselves nearly.

 

[Redfoot NERD]

As I recall Carl's are the Brazilian locale also -- which by nature come from a much "drier/hotter" terrain.. so when I kept both the "Northerns and Brazilians" the Brazilians were always the first ones out in the morning and the last ones in at night. They all shared the same fenced-in area with a divider separating them. The Brazilians were always more visible thru-out the day also!

@cdmay .. tell us about those 'carnivorous' Kingsnakes please - eating habits or how visible were they, etc.

[ it takes me forever to type so I have no idea what was said by the post while I am typing this ]

 

[cdmay]

Carl, do you think the priority purpose for yours basking is to thermoregulate or absorb the suns UV rays?

Probably both. In cooler weather it's more likely to thermoregulate. At other times...? Who knows. My point is that they are getting the rays and undoubtedly benefiting.

 

[cdmay]

@cdmay .. tell us about those 'carnivorous' Kingsnakes please - eating habits or how visible were they, etc.

[ it takes me forever to type so I have no idea what was said by the post while I am typing this ]

Kingsnakes? Huh?

 

[Redfoot NERD]

Kingsnakes? Huh?

As I recall @cdmay I heard you kept snakes quite a few years back and I thought they were Kingsnakes? Regardless the point is.. carnivorous snakes not only eat animal protein but have been seen sunning themselves - are they mainly not "baskers"?

Simply trying to demonstrate the diversity of D3 intake and the sources - among cold-blooded reptiles in particular.

 

[ZEROPILOT]

This has been very informative and has brought up some observations worth considering.
Very interesting.
Thank you.

 

[Redstrike]

I would caution folks against generalizing when talking about D3 absorption via diet within or across taxa. However, I would be particularly cautious of this when using across-taxa examples (mammals:reptiles :: apples: oranges).

For me, it's difficult discuss D3 acquisition from diet given the overwhelming complexity of selection pressures and parameters surrounding niche space; which drives the adaptations necessary for a species' survival.

Most animals have adapted to sequester D3 from the sun. I can't wrap my head around why some of us still insist on redfoot tortoises not needing UVB to generate Vit. D. Are we saying we'd like to keep our tortoises in artificial lighting and deny them the pleasures of outdoor excursions/existence? I just don't get it... You let your dogs out to play, why not your tortoise(s)? What is the need to deny a tortoise some ultraviolet exposure, fresh air, and weeds?!?! Why does this debate maintain traction?

 

[Redfoot NERD]

I would caution folks against generalizing when talking about D3 absorption via diet within or across taxa. However, I would be particularly cautious of this when using across-taxa examples (mammals:reptiles :: apples: oranges).

For me, it's difficult discuss D3 acquisition from diet given the overwhelming complexity of selection pressures and parameters surrounding niche space; which drives the adaptations necessary for a species' survival.

???

 

[Redfoot NERD]

All this 'scientific' caution! We are actually being very specific demonstrating that numerous animals within the mammals and reptiles community do in fact rely on D3 from their diet. And we're having no difficulty in this discussion!

I am cautioning against listening to anyone who tries to put ALL tortoises in the same 'care' box.