Humidity in tortoise table for Redfoot

[Stella Redfoot]

Hi everyone, I'm new to the forum and have always enjoyed your content and information, but I have a few questions that I can't seem to find in the Redfoot threads.

First, I have a roughly two year old Cherry-Head Redfoot tortoise who moved into a larger tortoise table a few months ago (prior to this she was in an aquarium where I was able to keep up on the heat and humidity, but she outgrew the aquarium) and I've been finding it difficult to maintain the humidity levels, which I know are super important. It is a struggle to raise it to even 70% and even then the levels usually drop immediately. I have tried researching and just can't figure out a way to raise/maintain those levels with ease.

In her tortoise table, I have:
- Coconut coir
- Cypress mulch
- Sphagnum moss (I've watched her and she doesn't eat it)

I mist the enclosure 2-3 times a day (however, it seems to make it more cold and damp than warm and humid) and have as much of the top covered with plastic as I can without a fire hazard from her heat lamps (CHE and MVB). Her heat lamps are as close as they can safely be, so attempting to put them in the enclosure itself is impossible. I'm gone for most of the day and trying to do such intensive misting before and after is time consuming and difficult. I have covered the mesh top with a plastic vinyl with circle holes cut in for the heat lamp and ceramic heat bulb (vinyl is not shown in attached photo), but even with that, the humidity just doesn't want to stay in.

Questions:
- In many of the threads I've read, there is a wide use of foggers/humidifiers, but I'm worried about respiratory infections, which I know Redfoots are especially prone to. Is this a thing for specific foggers/humidifiers or are caretakers using different products?
- I have also seen suggestions to pour water on the substrate, but how would I prevent mold and fungi?
- I have several fake plants and I know live plants would help maintain humidity even better, but would they get enough light to survive in her enclosure?
- Would attempting to change her current hide into a humidity hide work?
- How could I raise the temperature of her hide box (far right of the enclosure), as it is out of reach of the heat lamps and raising the ambient room temperature doesn't seem to do much (the hide box is about 70-72 degrees during the winter months)?
- Is trying to keep a wooden tortoise table properly humidified for a Redfoot in winter Wisconsin an impossible feat? Should I look into a new setup (would really hate this option, since I just bought this enclosure, but if nothing else would work...)?

As a note, Stella has been quite sluggish, unwilling to eat, and not like herself lately--a likely result of the low humidity and the cooler temperatures in her hide box area --so finding a solution as quickly as possible is essential. I really want to provide the best care I can and am quite worried I'm failing as a caretaker in that area. Any information or advice would be so helpful and go a long way toward my peace of mind. Thank you.

 

[mojo_1]

Your biggest problem is not having a closed chamber enclosure.
2nd the enclosure is still too small.
Foggers are bad.
To improve what you have cover it with a pop up greenhouse tent.
Also getting ceramic heat emitter on a thermostat controller to provide heat 24/7. And stop using mercury vapor bulbs.

 

[COmtnLady]

Oh dear. There are, indeed, a few problems.

In order of your above post ~

Red Foot area -

Redfoot and yellowfoot tortoises

tortoiseforum.org

!. How deep is the coco coir and are the cypress chips on top or mixed in? How deep is the upper layer?

2. Remove the moss.
There is no way to monitor 24/7/365 that she isn't eating it. The difference between thinking you can watch closely and an impaction isn't worth the "I don't know how this happened'.

3. Humidity ~
Misting, foggers, and spraying are bad.
Remove them if they are inside the enclosure, and don't use them even if they are not. They can create respiratory infections because the droplets are too big for a tortoise to breathe.
Plus, its exactly upside-down for RedFoots. You need the lower half or third (the lower two to three inches) of the coco coir to be wet, while everything up from there is dry. That should hold the humidity at a good level in an enclosed chamber, and provide a dry-ish top layer to walk on.
Due to their need for heat and humidity RedFoot are especially susceptible to fungus infections, so you want her to be able to live on a relatively dry surface.
Anytime humidity begins to drop you simply pour some warm water into the corners until it is back up to the right percentage of humidity.

4. It HAS to be a completely closed chamber. Otherwise it is like you are wondering how come your heating bill is so high while you leave all the doors and windows wide open. You can build a tent over the lights that does not touch the lights, or get a portable greenhouse to erect over the whole enclosure. Be creative., but do it sooner than later, she NEEDS both the humidity and temp to be in mid-80s or a bit higher.

5. As to your questions ~
A. You haven't been reading about using foggers, et al, here. The info other places is out-dated. It will make your head explode if you go all over the place, here has the most up-to-date info, with tortoise keepers who have decades of successful care and best outcomes under their belts. Any of the good info elsewhere will be here, too. but the new info will not be found elsewhere. Settle in here and you will have the a healthy thriving tortoise.

B The coco coir and orchid/fir barks presented here don't mold if you have the balance correct.
I have a red foot and have had zero incidents of mold. I did have a bit of fungus on my tort's plastron once when the substrate got seriously wet several days in a row due to her discovering she could dump over the water dish. I had to remove quite a bit of over-saturated substrate, use a baster to remove water that settled out of what was left, then put fist-sized rocks countersunk around the dish, so that she couldn't play with it anymore.

C. Remove the fake plants.
As with the moss, your tortoise WILL manage to eat some pieces which can cause ru$h-to-the-vet dige$tive problem$. It up to you to make sure the plants are healthy, just as it is to make sure your tortoise is healthy. Try rotating the plants out of the enclosure so that one is in the enclosure while the second one is moved to a sunnier place to recuperate,

D. She will adjust to you fiddling with her hides and such. It may confuse her for a bit, but the rest of her space will be the same and she will settle in.. Just make sure she has one while you are setting up the other.

E. As to the last two questions ~
In the upper right corner of each of the pages here, there is a search feature. Poke around and see what others have done. The more recent dates are usually the belter ones to read first as the older ones can sometimes have some of the previously referred-to bad info in them - the Forum is a work in progress and older stuff can have been discovered to be not the best and was updated in another thread. Its still good reference material.

F. Here are some possibly helpful info pages that another member collated from all over the Forum for the ease of newer members access the best info on the site :

Young red foot/ cherryhead set up

Hello there! In this thread I’m going to include some information on an effective example of a starter enclosure for a red foot/cherry head😊 Care advice for these guys is painfully behind, fb pages, YouTube, pet stores, they’re all repeating the same outdated advice, this forum is made of...

tortoiseforum.org

Enclosure inspiration

Howdy folks! Hope everyone is well! As you all know, I’m a big fan of making threads that cater more towards visual learners like myself, I’ve really been wanting to create a thread full of adult enclosure inspiration for a while now, I’ve managed to find some great references over time! I do...

tortoiseforum.org

Common keeping errors

Hello everyone! I’d been a long time lurker on this site long before joining just under a year ago now, over that time I’ve seen these husbandry issues come up time and time again, sometimes with dire consequences☹️ I thought this thread might serve as a good visual guide for these common...

tortoiseforum.org

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

Hi everyone, I'm new to the forum and have always enjoyed your content and information, but I have a few questions that I can't seem to find in the Redfoot threads.

First, I have a roughly two year old Cherry-Head Redfoot tortoise who moved into a larger tortoise table a few months ago (prior to this she was in an aquarium where I was able to keep up on the heat and humidity, but she outgrew the aquarium) and I've been finding it difficult to maintain the humidity levels, which I know are super important. It is a struggle to raise it to even 70% and even then the levels usually drop immediately. I have tried researching and just can't figure out a way to raise/maintain those levels with ease.

In her tortoise table, I have:
- Coconut coir
- Cypress mulch
- Sphagnum moss (I've watched her and she doesn't eat it)

I mist the enclosure 2-3 times a day (however, it seems to make it more cold and damp than warm and humid) and have as much of the top covered with plastic as I can without a fire hazard from her heat lamps (CHE and MVB). Her heat lamps are as close as they can safely be, so attempting to put them in the enclosure itself is impossible. I'm gone for most of the day and trying to do such intensive misting before and after is time consuming and difficult. I have covered the mesh top with a plastic vinyl with circle holes cut in for the heat lamp and ceramic heat bulb (vinyl is not shown in attached photo), but even with that, the humidity just doesn't want to stay in.

Questions:
- In many of the threads I've read, there is a wide use of foggers/humidifiers, but I'm worried about respiratory infections, which I know Redfoots are especially prone to. Is this a thing for specific foggers/humidifiers or are caretakers using different products?
- I have also seen suggestions to pour water on the substrate, but how would I prevent mold and fungi?
- I have several fake plants and I know live plants would help maintain humidity even better, but would they get enough light to survive in her enclosure?
- Would attempting to change her current hide into a humidity hide work?
- How could I raise the temperature of her hide box (far right of the enclosure), as it is out of reach of the heat lamps and raising the ambient room temperature doesn't seem to do much (the hide box is about 70-72 degrees during the winter months)?
- Is trying to keep a wooden tortoise table properly humidified for a Redfoot in winter Wisconsin an impossible feat? Should I look into a new setup (would really hate this option, since I just bought this enclosure, but if nothing else would work...)?

As a note, Stella has been quite sluggish, unwilling to eat, and not like herself lately--a likely result of the low humidity and the cooler temperatures in her hide box area --so finding a solution as quickly as possible is essential. I really want to provide the best care I can and am quite worried I'm failing as a caretaker in that area. Any information or advice would be so helpful and go a long way toward my peace of mind. Thank you.

Perfect advice above, hopefully you find those links helpful! For the ‘enclosure inspiration one’ as you’re needing a closed chamber, you can have a look through the different indoor options in there, then in this one there’s multiple ideas on how to make those different options into a closed chamber, there’s more ideas in the comments too! Please feel free to ask any further questions, they’ll always be a bunch of wonderful folks happy to advise, I know it can all feel a bit overwhelming, welcome to the forum

Visual inspiration

Hi guys! I’ve had some lovely messages complimenting me on my care sheets I made for all the visuals they include! That makes me so happy because as a visual learner myself, that was my goal🥰 I’ve recently had some requests for some more visual inspiration for set ups that can house babies/...

tortoiseforum.org

 

[Stella Redfoot]

Thank you all for your quick and helpful replies. I'll try to implement some of the more immediate suggestions tomorrow. However, I was wondering if the enclosure itself would be leaking humidity, since it is by nature completely wooden, and as a result negating any type of partial covering? Also, is the objection to the MVB because of the desiccation to their shells and the fact that Redfoots don't necessarily bask? Another question is how exactly to find or even construct such a closed and large enclosure that she requires? Most of the reference photos I've seen either feature enclosures that are too small or are open-topped.

Answering your question, COmtnLady, the coconut coir is about an inch deep (deeper in her hide area) and the cypress mulch is a topping to reduce the amount of coconut coir that would stick to her after a bath.

 

[mojo_1]

Thank you all for your quick and helpful replies. I'll try to implement some of the more immediate suggestions tomorrow. However, I was wondering if the enclosure itself would be leaking humidity, since it is by nature completely wooden, and as a result negating any type of partial covering? Also, is the objection to the MVB because of the desiccation to their shells and the fact that Redfoots don't necessarily bask? Another question is how exactly to find or even construct such a closed and large enclosure that she requires? Most of the reference photos I've seen either feature enclosures that are too small or are open-topped.

Answering your question, COmtnLady, the coconut coir is about an inch deep (deeper in her hide area) and the cypress mulch is a topping to reduce the amount of coconut coir that would stick to her after a bath

Most that build one cover it with pop up greenhouse tent. You can buy one but the size you need for this stage is roughly $1100 to $1500. I personally like the folks at animal plastics. They were around 4 to 6 weeks out to build and ship. For future reference, the adult redfoot requires a minimum of 6' x 20' enclosure. You need around 4' x 8' now.

 

[COmtnLady]

Answering your question, COmtnLady, the coconut coir is about an inch deep (deeper in her hide area) and the cypress mulch is a topping to reduce the amount of coconut coir that would stick to her after a bath.

An inch of substrate isn't deep enough. You need two to four inches of base (coco coir) and at least two or three on top of that for enough mass to hold the humidity. As long as you clean it every day (remove the poo and trampled food, make sure the humidity and temps are right) you don't need to change out the coir and bark hardly ever. A lot of new-to-tort-keeping think its like a hamster cage that needs completely changed out all the time, but its more like an ecosystem that once its set up it reaches a stasis point.

Buy the bricks of coco coir (and the orchid bark/fir bark/cypress) not the loose bags (loose is too expensive and difficult to soak before putting into the enclosure). Its usually cheaper at plant places rather than at pet stores. Soak a brick in warm water (in a clean, never used for anything soapy or oily bucket), until it falls apart, no lumps left, squeeze out as much of the moisture as you can by hand and then hand-pack it into the bottom of your enclosure. That should make for a good base. Then put your layer of bark/chips on top.

But you need a lot deeper substrate-base than what you currently have.

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

Thank you all for your quick and helpful replies. I'll try to implement some of the more immediate suggestions tomorrow. However, I was wondering if the enclosure itself would be leaking humidity, since it is by nature completely wooden, and as a result negating any type of partial covering? Also, is the objection to the MVB because of the desiccation to their shells and the fact that Redfoots don't necessarily bask? Another question is how exactly to find or even construct such a closed and large enclosure that she requires? Most of the reference photos I've seen either feature enclosures that are too small or are open-topped.

Answering your question, COmtnLady, the coconut coir is about an inch deep (deeper in her hide area) and the cypress mulch is a topping to reduce the amount of coconut coir that would stick to her after a bath.

It’s very possible how those set ups are made yes, even when covering the top, it could be escaping through the slats of wood.

With MVB bulbs, both the points you mention are true for red foots yes, but MBV bulbs are discouraged in general for any tortoise species as they can contribute towards pyramiding.

Hopefully the visual inspiration thread I added will inspire an idea on how to build a larger closed chamber, there’s a few ways to go about it, a member recently joined who is working on a larger red foot enclosure, I believe they’re looking into some sort of stock tank with a homemade top, there’s also greenhouse set ups that come in decent sizes, though some minimal diy may be required for a base

 

[Stella Redfoot]

I'll pick up a new ceramic bulb today!
Animal Plastics looks great and I'll definitely keep it as an option for later down the road.

I guess my real question is am I trying to save a sinking ship? Is all of this time, money, and effort going to ultimately prove fruitless? Her heat lamps are at the minimum distance from her shell, and increasing the amount of substrate would force them higher, creating a larger vacuum for the heat and humidity to escape through. I want to get it right on my first retry (I guess my this enclosure didn't quite work out :/) and not spend all this time trying to fix the new setup a couple of months from now.

 

[Tom]

I guess my real question is am I trying to save a sinking ship? Is all of this time, money, and effort going to ultimately prove fruitless?

To a degree yes. Open topped enclosures with the lights on top will never work for species that need constant warmth and humidity. You enclosure would work just fine for an adult Testudo, except that it's a bit too small for that. Also, wooden enclosures just don't work long term for tortoises that require high humidity and damp substrate.

RFs don't need a basking lamp, and yes, MVBs should never be used over a RF or any other species that is still growing. If used carefully and checked with a meter, MVBs can work in some circumstances for full grown adults of smaller species that are tolerant of dry conditions, but it is still better to use a regular incandescent flood bulb and a T5 HO UV tube over those too.

You need a large closed chamber with all the heating and lighting contained inside, 3-4 inches of substrate, orchid bark works best as substrate for RFs because it can be kept damp in the lower layers and dry on top, and I'd get rid of the basking lamp entirely and use CHEs or RHPs set on thermostats to maintain over all ambient warmth. It should never drop below 80-82 in any part of your enclosure at any time for a RF.

Animal Plastics is great, but they take a long time to ship, and then you have to customize the enclosure, buy, and set up all the lighting and heating yourself. I like Mark's "Smart Enclosures". Once you add it all up, they are cheaper than buying all that stuff and building it yourself. You can get an 8x3 foot enclosure relatively quickly and that should last you a while.

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

I'll pick up a new ceramic bulb today!
Animal Plastics looks great and I'll definitely keep it as an option for later down the road.

I guess my real question is am I trying to save a sinking ship? Is all of this time, money, and effort going to ultimately prove fruitless? Her heat lamps are at the minimum distance from her shell, and increasing the amount of substrate would force them higher, creating a larger vacuum for the heat and humidity to escape through. I want to get it right on my first retry (I guess my this enclosure didn't quite work out :/) and not spend all this time trying to fix the new setup a couple of months from now.

Personally I would start looking into a new set up yes, you’d probably end up spending more than it’s worth trying to make this one last, keep the plastic on top for now to help with the humidity, maybe try the lukewarm water pout? I’d get some lining under the substrate first though, it won’t stay quite where needed but should hopefully keep her comfortable until you have things sorted out

 

[Alex and the Redfoot]

I'll pick up a new ceramic bulb today!
Animal Plastics looks great and I'll definitely keep it as an option for later down the road.

I guess my real question is am I trying to save a sinking ship? Is all of this time, money, and effort going to ultimately prove fruitless? Her heat lamps are at the minimum distance from her shell, and increasing the amount of substrate would force them higher, creating a larger vacuum for the heat and humidity to escape through. I want to get it right on my first retry (I guess my this enclosure didn't quite work out :/) and not spend all this time trying to fix the new setup a couple of months from now.

Hi!
A few "band-aids" you can try while researching enclosure options:
1. Remove MVB and basking lamp. You can install spot LED grow lights in the domes for live plants (e.g. Sansi LED).
2. Get chicken brooder heat panels and attach them to the wooden lids. Put them on a thermostat. Please check that heat panel dimensions match lid size. Here is the link to such panel on TractorSupply: https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/producers-pride-brooder-and-coop-heater
3. Add more substrate as recommended above.
4. Cover meshed parts with plexiglass sheets or plastic film.

I see a fluorescent tube over the right enclosure part. Is it a UVB lamp? What kind?

As an alternative to PVC enclosures you can check hydroponic grow tents (Vivosun, AC Infinity and others). They are worse than PVC enclosures at retaining heat and require a bit of tweaking to use as a tortoise enclosure, however prices are sane and they are available in many different sizes.

 

[Stella Redfoot]

Thank you for the suggestions, and the fluorescent tube is a 24” Arcadia PRO T5 12% UVB fluorescent fixture and bulb.

 

[Alex and the Redfoot]

Thank you for the suggestions, and the fluorescent tube is a 24” Arcadia PRO T5 12% UVB fluorescent fixture and bulb.

This lamp should be placed at 20-21" above substrate level. Also make sure that MVB and this lamp have non-overlapping lit areas. Otherwise, UVB exposure will be too high and potentially harmful.

 

[Stella Redfoot]

I replaced the MVB with a ceramic heat emitter and will check the height of the UVB lamp, thanks!

 

[Stella Redfoot]

I'm looking into some new enclosures and was wondering about the substrate: would it still be acceptable to use coconut coir and cypress mulch (with the proper depth, of course) or is there a significant advantage to using orchid bark?

I was also wondering if I needed another UVB lamp, since I stuck with the one because of the MVB. I've heard that redfoots both need regular UVB exposure and none at all. Everything seems a little vague and I just wanted to hear your opinions. At any rate, should the lamp(s) be on for a regular day cycle or for only a few hours, since that's another topic I've run across?

 

[mojo_1]

I'm looking into some new enclosures and was wondering about the substrate: would it still be acceptable to use coconut coir and cypress mulch (with the proper depth, of course) or is there a significant advantage to using orchid bark?

I was also wondering if I needed another UVB lamp, since I stuck with the one because of the MVB. I've heard that redfoots both need regular UVB exposure and none at all. Everything seems a little vague and I just wanted to hear your opinions. At any rate, should the lamp(s) be on for a regular day cycle or for only a few hours, since that's another topic I've run across?

Orchid bark is less messy. They do need UVB on a timer from noon to 4pm. The UVB light you have is good.

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

I'm looking into some new enclosures and was wondering about the substrate: would it still be acceptable to use coconut coir and cypress mulch (with the proper depth, of course) or is there a significant advantage to using orchid bark?

I was also wondering if I needed another UVB lamp, since I stuck with the one because of the MVB. I've heard that redfoots both need regular UVB exposure and none at all. Everything seems a little vague and I just wanted to hear your opinions. At any rate, should the lamp(s) be on for a regular day cycle or for only a few hours, since that's another topic I've run across?

You could still use the coir and cypress mulch if you wish, though I’d say coir and orchid bark are a slightly better combination, looks nicer too imo

And yeah as mentioned above, the strip uvb light is absolutely fine, can be on for 4 hours a day, red foots do tend to have lower uvb requirements than most tortoises, but it’s still good to provide some for them to have access to.
With the uv timing, every other source of information will tell you 12hours of uv. This is essentially an old fashioned rule that has stuck with a lot of keepers, it stems from the presumption that once the basking light or ambient lighting is on, ie the ‘sun’, that uv must coexist the same amount of hours. Fact is, uv rays only peak for a few hours a day, anyone with a uv meter will confirm this. No tortoise is blasted with 12 hours of uv in the wild, therefore it’s not necessary in captivity.
The right uv bulbs are much more expensive to replace once their uv strength diminishes, so it’s definitely best having it on a 4 hour timer that provides them with all the uv they need, saving your bulb life.
Then some cheaper led lighting for your ambient 12 hour light cycle, your ceramics will run 24/7 on a thermostat, hope that all makes sense