humidity not necessary

[Juan V]

Juan V,

You are spreading the same misinformation that we have all been subjected to for the past 25 years or so, since sulcatas became available to the general public here in the early 90s. This information, your information, is based on incorrect assumptions that have been repeated over and over again. People like you (and formerly me too) come along and read all this old stuff and we believe it. It all sounds so logical and founded in what appear to be facts, but it is wrong. How do I know it is wrong? Because following this information and following the advice of all the experts has failed all of us for decades. With lots of input from lots of sources, I and several others have finally figured out what IS correct and what DOES work. Dave Friend from the Ojai sulcat project has conceded as much in several personal conversations, but he has never taken the time to re-do his website, unfortunately.

Many of your claims are false. Please allow me to dispute them.
1. The African rainy season last 3-4 months, not just one. This is according to my friend Tomas Diagne of the African Chelonian Institute who has lived there in sulcata territory his whole life. According to Tomas, the brush is so full and thick within a couple of weeks of the start of the rainy season that is is impenetrable. At the base of these plants is where baby sulcata spend their first few months, in the rain and African heat. During this time of year it is hot rainy, humid and there are puddles and marshes every where. After that time, when the dry season creeps in, they spend their time in warm, humid underground burrows. None of these facts are mentioned in old books, websites or anywhere else.
2. 69 degrees is much too cold for baby sulcatas. This is one common factor that I agree with many of the old time keepers on. There is no cold season over there. Even when their "winter" temps dip into the high 60's, there daytime highs are near or above 100. This results in average burrow temps of 80+ degrees. At no time would a young sulcata, or an adult for that matter, experience temps in the 60's in the wild. You had problems because you kept them too cold.
3. You have asserted that you think 80% humidity is both unnatural and unhealthy multiple times here. You are wrong on both counts. You say this because of old stuff you read and your own mistake of letting your babies be too cold. I say you are wrong based on what I know happens in the wild and what I have personally observed through multiple experiments over many years. You are wrong because I have personally raised HUNDREDS of sulcatas (and other species...) this way with ZERO problems. Not a single sick one ever. That is not coincidence and it is not luck. In fact hundreds of people all over the world are now using these techniques and reporting the same success.
4. You say "1) SUN, AS MUCH OF IT AS POSSIBLE". Actually this is not the case for hatchlings. Too much sun in our outdoor enclosures dries them out and greatly slows their rates of growth when compared to their siblings raised mostly indoors on the same amount and same type of food. Some sunshine is good, but hatchlings in the wild would not be seeing much direct sunshine while hiding under their heavy thickets of vegetation. They would instead see high humidity and warm temps under there.

You have made the mistake of making all sorts of assertions with no evidence to back up your claims. On the other hand, I have thousands of post and pictures to back up my claims, along with about 50 tortoises that prove every word I've typed here. Growing a sulcata in a typical indoor enclosure with 30% humidity will result in stunted, pyramided tortoises, if they survive. How do I know this? Because I have done it many times in years past. How many sulcatas have YOU raised with high humidity and the correct temperatures? None. The truth is that you don't know if this method is good or bad, because you have never done it correctly. I had to prove what I was saying was true by demonstrating it. I have publicly demonstrated it many many times now, and hundreds, if not thousands, of other people have now demonstrated it as well. For any of us to take you seriously, you will need to demonstrate your assertions as well. You will need to get 12 clutch mates. Raise 6 my way, and 6 your way, and then let's compare results after a few months or a couple of years. I have already done this many times, and that is how I know how your experiment will turn out. YOU still need to learn how it will turn out.

You took the time to read about how we recommend housing sulcatas here on this forum and jumped to conclusions based on previous misinformation that you were taught, but you appear to have skipped over all the thousands of posts and pics of smooth healthy, warm humid raised tortoises. I hope you will now take the time to correct this oversight. I will help you:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/the-end-of-pyramiding.15137/
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/the-end-of-pyramiding-ii-the-leopards.18931/
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/meet-toms-sulcatas.56465/
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/meet-toms-leopard-tortoises.56643/

I hope other members will chime in and post links to their own threads of their own smooth, healthy tortoises raised with these new and improved methods.

One last thing: I agree with your opinions on diet. Just so you don't think I'm entirely opposed to everything you had to say in your initial foray onto our forum here.

Welcome. I hope we are able to change your mind about some of the old outdated info you are still following.

I will follow your advice then and I will gradually humidify the tortoise terrarium and see how they react. I'll also try to raise the terrarium temperature a few degrees adding some sort of heating thing..

Thank you so much for the information. I am a bit reluctant to maxing the hummidity but i'll follow your advice and see how they gradually react to this. I'll also think of altering the Software that controls the temperature to include this changes.

Maybe something very cool can come up

 

[leigti]

I think it is great that you are open to different ideas and opinions.

 

[Tom]

Out of every 10 newly borned sulcatas in the wild, only 2 or 3 will make it to fully grown adults. The others will perish in the first year of their life due to predators, getting lost or stranded in a place where ir couldn't find water, and more will die just because their body and genes are just not fit enough.

Actually, according to the field researchers that I have talked to, the number is probably much lower than that. Somewhere between 300 and 3000 die for every one that makes it all the way to maturity.

 

[Tom]

The shopkeeper I bought the tortoise from told me he used to have them in a humid warm environment and the torts loved the water so much that some developed funghi in their shells. Others had some mucus and a few perished.

As I said before, I have raised literally hundreds of tortoises of several species this way in the last 6 years and not a single one has ever had a respiratory infection of any kind of fungus or shell rot. Your shop keeper did something wrong. Probably low temps, if I had to guess. Sulcatas are simply not the least bit prone to any kind of shell rot. And they simply don't get respiratory infections unless the temps drop too low.

 

[Tom]

Not all tortoises that are born have the genes to make it to adulthood even if their husbandry is excellent.

I have to disagree here too. All of my babies that were given proper husbandry survived and thrived. 100%. The sentiment that you express above is commonly heard from breeders who use the dry methods and have to find a way to explain away all the ones that die off. If you keep them humid, warm and hydrated, none of them die off. Out of hundreds of eggs that I have hatched I had only one that was born a little "off" and not fit for survival. They normally hatch at around 90 days. This single egg hatched at 173 days and the baby was only 22 grams when they are normally 35-40 grams. There was clearly something "wrong" with it from day one. It only lived for a bout 3 months and grew very little. This single baby is the one that I would concede was not fit for survival due to some sort of genetic or congenital defect, but ALL of the other hundreds of hatchlings that hatched in the normal timeframe at normal weight survived, thrived and grew. So in my experience, with what I define as proper husbandry, the ratio of babies that thrive to babies that fail to thrive was around 500 to 1. By my estimation this is opposite of what happens in the wild and just one reason why I don't think attempting to simulate all aspects of what we think happens in the wild is a good idea.

 

[Tom]

I will follow your advice then and I will gradually humidify the tortoise terrarium and see how they react. I'll also try to raise the terrarium temperature a few degrees adding some sort of heating thing..

Thank you so much for the information. I am a bit reluctant to maxing the hummidity but i'll follow your advice and see how they gradually react to this. I'll also think of altering the Software that controls the temperature to include this changes.

Maybe something very cool can come up

That's great news Juan! I would highly recommend getting your temperatures sorted out before adding humidity. I recommend that ambient temps every where in your enclosure not drop below 26-27C day or night. During the day its good for ambient to creep up to 32-33C and still offer a basking spot of 37C. These tortoises come from a pretty hot part of the planet. I think your Spanish climate and temperatures are pretty similar to mine here, but our climates are not like where sulcatas come from. My friend Tomas describes the seasons in Africa where sulcatas come from as only "Hot and hotter."

During fair weather I sun hatchlings for only an hour or two and soak them on the way back in. As the sulcatas gain size, I sun them longer and longer, until they stay out all day once they reach about 5-6" (127-152mm). I move them outside full time with heated night shelters once they reach about 8-10" (200-250mm).

 

[cmacusa3]

I must say I believe 100% in Tom's methods. I got my Sully about 4-5 months ago. I read up a little but didn't get to worried about knowledge because I've raised boxies for years. When I got my little guy I listened to the pet shop that I got him from and kept him dry early on and thought that was okay, but as he slept and wasn't very active I got worried. I started doing more research and found this site, with the help of Tom and many others I made the changes and still cannot believe the results I got. I now have a very active and just a great little tort. It's funny because yesterday I took him to the pet store I got him from because my daughter volunteers for them and she was bragging about how good he looked and how fast he was growing, so they asked me to bring him in. This isn't a chain pet store but it's growing fast in the city I live in. They were amazed at the results and had numerous questions. I showed them my enclosure and told them about this site. The were very excited to start passing on this info and I'm pretty sure they were going to start giving the site info out with every sell. Just my .02 for what it's worth.

 

[Levi the Leopard]

. Out of every 10 newly borned sulcatas in the wild, only 2 or 3 will make it to fully grown adults.

The others will perish in the first year of their life due to predators, getting lost or stranded in a place where ir couldn't find water,

-----and more will die just because their body and genes are just not fit enough. Not all tortoises that are born have the genes to make it to adulthood even if their husbandry is excellent.-----.

I have to strongly disagree with this. I know it's a bit off topic but still.
Every hatchling HAS to have the genes to survive BECAUSE most won't make it due to other reasons. like the mentioned predators etc..
otherwise, what if the "good gene" babies are eaten/stranded and the "bad gene" babies are safe but then die off anyway....? the population can't continue. It just doesn't make sense. I'd elaborate more but it's not easy typing on this phone...

To tie it in, make it relevant to this topic, I think that's WHY ALL of Tom's babies survive and thrive. ALL hatching have the good genes to survive given right conditions and safety from predators.

 

[Levi the Leopard]

Not all tortoises that are born have the genes to make it to adulthood even if their husbandry is excellent.

I have to disagree here too. All of my babies that were given proper husbandry survived and thrived. 100%. The sentiment that you express above is commonly heard from breeders who use the dry methods and have to find a way to explain away all the ones that die off. If you keep them humid, warm and hydrated, none of them die off. Out of hundreds of eggs that I have hatched I had only one that was born a little "off" and not fit for survival. They normally hatch at around 90 days. This single egg hatched at 173 days and the baby was only 22 grams when they are normally 35-40 grams. There was clearly something "wrong" with it from day one. It only lived for a bout 3 months and grew very little. This single baby is the one that I would concede was not fit for survival due to some sort of genetic or congenital defect, but ALL of the other hundreds of hatchlings that hatched in the normal timeframe at normal weight survived, thrived and grew. So in my experience, with what I define as proper husbandry, the ratio of babies that thrive to babies that fail to thrive was around 500 to 1. By my estimation this is opposite of what happens in the wild and just one reason why I don't think attempting to simulate all aspects of what we think happens in the wild is a good idea.

ha! I posted my comment before seeing you beat me

 

[FLINTUS]

Juan V,

You are spreading the same misinformation that we have all been subjected to for the past 25 years or so, since sulcatas became available to the general public here in the early 90s. This information, your information, is based on incorrect assumptions that have been repeated over and over again. People like you (and formerly me too) come along and read all this old stuff and we believe it. It all sounds so logical and founded in what appear to be facts, but it is wrong. How do I know it is wrong? Because following this information and following the advice of all the experts has failed all of us for decades. With lots of input from lots of sources, I and several others have finally figured out what IS correct and what DOES work. Dave Friend from the Ojai sulcat project has conceded as much in several personal conversations, but he has never taken the time to re-do his website, unfortunately.

Many of your claims are false. Please allow me to dispute them.
1. The African rainy season last 3-4 months, not just one. This is according to my friend Tomas Diagne of the African Chelonian Institute who has lived there in sulcata territory his whole life. According to Tomas, the brush is so full and thick within a couple of weeks of the start of the rainy season that is is impenetrable. At the base of these plants is where baby sulcata spend their first few months, in the rain and African heat. During this time of year it is hot rainy, humid and there are puddles and marshes every where. After that time, when the dry season creeps in, they spend their time in warm, humid underground burrows. None of these facts are mentioned in old books, websites or anywhere else.
2. 69 degrees is much too cold for baby sulcatas. This is one common factor that I agree with many of the old time keepers on. There is no cold season over there. Even when their "winter" temps dip into the high 60's, there daytime highs are near or above 100. This results in average burrow temps of 80+ degrees. At no time would a young sulcata, or an adult for that matter, experience temps in the 60's in the wild. You had problems because you kept them too cold.
3. You have asserted that you think 80% humidity is both unnatural and unhealthy multiple times here. You are wrong on both counts. You say this because of old stuff you read and your own mistake of letting your babies be too cold. I say you are wrong based on what I know happens in the wild and what I have personally observed through multiple experiments over many years. You are wrong because I have personally raised HUNDREDS of sulcatas (and other species...) this way with ZERO problems. Not a single sick one ever. That is not coincidence and it is not luck. In fact hundreds of people all over the world are now using these techniques and reporting the same success.
4. You say "1) SUN, AS MUCH OF IT AS POSSIBLE". Actually this is not the case for hatchlings. Too much sun in our outdoor enclosures dries them out and greatly slows their rates of growth when compared to their siblings raised mostly indoors on the same amount and same type of food. Some sunshine is good, but hatchlings in the wild would not be seeing much direct sunshine while hiding under their heavy thickets of vegetation. They would instead see high humidity and warm temps under there.

You have made the mistake of making all sorts of assertions with no evidence to back up your claims. On the other hand, I have thousands of post and pictures to back up my claims, along with about 50 tortoises that prove every word I've typed here. Growing a sulcata in a typical indoor enclosure with 30% humidity will result in stunted, pyramided tortoises, if they survive. How do I know this? Because I have done it many times in years past. How many sulcatas have YOU raised with high humidity and the correct temperatures? None. The truth is that you don't know if this method is good or bad, because you have never done it correctly. I had to prove what I was saying was true by demonstrating it. I have publicly demonstrated it many many times now, and hundreds, if not thousands, of other people have now demonstrated it as well. For any of us to take you seriously, you will need to demonstrate your assertions as well. You will need to get 12 clutch mates. Raise 6 my way, and 6 your way, and then let's compare results after a few months or a couple of years. I have already done this many times, and that is how I know how your experiment will turn out. YOU still need to learn how it will turn out.

You took the time to read about how we recommend housing sulcatas here on this forum and jumped to conclusions based on previous misinformation that you were taught, but you appear to have skipped over all the thousands of posts and pics of smooth healthy, warm humid raised tortoises. I hope you will now take the time to correct this oversight. I will help you:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/the-end-of-pyramiding.15137/
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/the-end-of-pyramiding-ii-the-leopards.18931/
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/meet-toms-sulcatas.56465/
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/meet-toms-leopard-tortoises.56643/

I hope other members will chime in and post links to their own threads of their own smooth, healthy tortoises raised with these new and improved methods.

One last thing: I agree with your opinions on diet. Just so you don't think I'm entirely opposed to everything you had to say in your initial foray onto our forum here.

Welcome. I hope we are able to change your mind about some of the old outdated info you are still following.

Tom, I believe Senegal is one of the wetter countries in the range-considering it is shared by erosa and homeana as well as a country-, so while Tomas is v.experienced with African chelonia, I wouldn't take it as a mode average for the range.
African plains do get very cool at night due to lack of cloud cover to put it simply. A lot of heat is lost during the night, but as you said, it warms up v.high during the day. But the SURFACE TEMPERATURE will easily get down to 60, and often much lower, in parts of their range. This is why exfoliation is so common in their habitats. But, as you said, burrows will retain a lot of the heat, but it is important to note that the surface temps will get low.
CONSTANT 80% humidity is not natural, the shell becomes too dense and heavy. Even red foots need time to dry off, as in their case, it causes shell rot. V.few species live in constant high humidity environments, manouria, indotestudo, and erosa/homeana being the exceptions, most of the time. However, I do agree that an area of the enclosure should be humid, to help with hydration, but these tortoises must be able to dry off as well.
And of course, regarding the other topic, there is hatchling failure syndrome.

 

[Juan V]

Juan V,

You are spreading the same misinformation that we have all been subjected to for the past 25 years or so, since sulcatas became available to the general public here in the early 90s. This information, your information, is based on incorrect assumptions that have been repeated over and over again. People like you (and formerly me too) come along and read all this old stuff and we believe it. It all sounds so logical and founded in what appear to be facts, but it is wrong. How do I know it is wrong? Because following this information and following the advice of all the experts has failed all of us for decades. With lots of input from lots of sources, I and several others have finally figured out what IS correct and what DOES work. Dave Friend from the Ojai sulcat project has conceded as much in several personal conversations, but he has never taken the time to re-do his website, unfortunately.

Many of your claims are false. Please allow me to dispute them.
1. The African rainy season last 3-4 months, not just one. This is according to my friend Tomas Diagne of the African Chelonian Institute who has lived there in sulcata territory his whole life. According to Tomas, the brush is so full and thick within a couple of weeks of the start of the rainy season that is is impenetrable. At the base of these plants is where baby sulcata spend their first few months, in the rain and African heat. During this time of year it is hot rainy, humid and there are puddles and marshes every where. After that time, when the dry season creeps in, they spend their time in warm, humid underground burrows. None of these facts are mentioned in old books, websites or anywhere else.

The african rainy season doesn't last 3 months in all of the Sahel ! And bear in mind that even if it did, the other 8 months would be hot, arid and extremely dry.If humidity values were always that high we wouldn't be talking about a desert. Rainy season there is short just as it is here in the mediterranean (even though both climates are almost nothing alike) That means that for the other 8 months , the tortoise gets to live in an arid landscape that stays arid even in winter. I Don't think those sulcatas can enjoy high humidities throughout the whole year no matter how many burrows they dig. I've dug 1m deep holes here in Valencia in a typical mediterranean area with limited access to water and trust me humidity is almost non existant, so i'm imagining the landscape back in the savannah and the arid sahel shouldn't be any better. Maybe next to rivers, maybe in some oasis you could find some kind of habitat with high humidity, but this proves my point, maybe these tortoises can withstand both humid areas as well as arid areas, just as long as you keep them warm.

2. 69 degrees is much too cold for baby sulcatas. This is one common factor that I agree with many of the old time keepers on. There is no cold season over there. Even when their "winter" temps dip into the high 60's, there daytime highs are near or above 100. This results in average burrow temps of 80+ degrees. At no time would a young sulcata, or an adult for that matter, experience temps in the 60's in the wild. You had problems because you kept them too cold.
I also strongly disagree with this one. Some speciments of sulcatas have been found living almost in the sahara desert, where temperatures drop bellow 0ºC (32F). I agree with the fact that the tortoise will thrive better if the temperature is always above 90ºF, However I also think that it would be better for them to start climating to the mediterranean climate that they will live in (which they can withstand and in which they can thrive with the proper conditions). These torts are big 4x4 trucks that can withstand a lot of climatic situations when they reach adulthood.

3. You have asserted that you think 80% humidity is both unnatural and unhealthy multiple times here. You are wrong on both counts. You say this because of old stuff you read and your own mistake of letting your babies be too cold. I say you are wrong based on what I know happens in the wild and what I have personally observed through multiple experiments over many years. You are wrong because I have personally raised HUNDREDS of sulcatas (and other species...) this way with ZERO problems. Not a single sick one ever. That is not coincidence and it is not luck. In fact hundreds of people all over the world are now using these techniques and reporting the same success.

No, I say this because whenever I soak the soil the humidity levels (above the soil ofc) roughly reach 70%, and this is really soaking the soil with water. It is hard for me to imagine (as I guess it would be hard to imagine for anyone) that this kind of humidity can be found easily in the sahel! The second part is really what makes me wonder and prove my point . If you've managed to successfully raise hundreds of sulcatas this way without problems, then this means that sulcatas can live happily in this kind of condition, but many people have also raised hundreds of sulcatas successfully and without pyramidism the other way. I can see you know a lot about sulcatas but there are also many people that know a lot about sulcatas that have recommended me do it the dry arid way. I can only imagine that both of you are right, and that sulcatas can withstand high and low humidity as long as there's heat.

4. You say "1) SUN, AS MUCH OF IT AS POSSIBLE". Actually this is not the case for hatchlings. Too much sun in our outdoor enclosures dries them out and greatly slows their rates of growth when compared to their siblings raised mostly indoors on the same amount and same type of food. Some sunshine is good, but hatchlings in the wild would not be seeing much direct sunshine while hiding under their heavy thickets of vegetation. They would instead see high humidity and warm temps under there.

I agree, hatchlings spend most of their time digged underground or hiding beneath rocks or anything that will hide them away from predators. But whenever they do get out they face an unholy dry arid sun. And the more they grow the less they need to hide. So an adult sulcata should have as much sunlight as it could possibly get, and a place to shade, so he/she can decide when to shade and when to sunbath. In any ways, natural solar sunlight is just the best for these animals.

Growing a sulcata in a typical indoor enclosure with 30% humidity will result in stunted, pyramided tortoises, if they survive. How do I know this? Because I have done it many times in years past.

I doubt that., 30% humidity is not necesarily aridness. I've seen for myself tortoises raised under these conditions without piramidization problems, including my own pardalis, which has 0 pyramiding. Also none of my young juveniles show any syntomes of pyramiding. This being said, I havent successfully raised a sulcata tortoise to adulthood yet. (but i'm hoping I will)

How many sulcatas have YOU raised with high humidity and the correct temperatures? None. The truth is that you don't know if this method is good or bad, because you have never done it correctly. I had to prove what I was saying was true by demonstrating it. I have publicly demonstrated it many many times now, and hundreds, if not thousands, of other people have now demonstrated it as well. For any of us to take you seriously, you will need to demonstrate your assertions as well. You will need to get 12 clutch mates. Raise 6 my way, and 6 your way, and then let's compare results after a few months or a couple of years. I have already done this many times, and that is how I know how your experiment will turn out. YOU still need to learn how it will turn out.

You are right, I havent done that at all. I'm no expert in tortoises and I haven raises hundreds of tortoises nor can I afford to do the things you are suggesting me to do. However, i've met, spoken and seen other people that raise sulcatas the arid way (when I say arid I don't mean 0% humidity ) and they have told me the exact opposite. And i'm in a crossroads here... Could it be that just both ways are O.K ? Have you raised enough tortoises the arid way correctly to say "that animals raised like that die" ???

You took the time to read about how we recommend housing sulcatas here on this forum and jumped to conclusions based on previous misinformation that you were taught, but you appear to have skipped over all the thousands of posts and pics of smooth healthy, warm humid raised tortoises. I hope you will now take the time to correct this oversight. I will help you:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/the-end-of-pyramiding.15137/
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/the-end-of-pyramiding-ii-the-leopards.18931/
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/meet-toms-sulcatas.56465/
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/meet-toms-leopard-tortoises.56643/

thank you, i'll take a look at this as soon as I can . However, it would also be nice to see some of your enclosures where you keep these tortoises, to see the soil, the humidity system (do you use any aparatus or just soaking with water every now and then?) so that I could try and replicate some key aspects in my enclosure

I hope other members will chime in and post links to their own threads of their own smooth, healthy tortoises raised with these new and improved methods.

One last thing: I agree with your opinions on diet. Just so you don't think I'm entirely opposed to everything you had to say in your initial foray onto our forum here.

Welcome. I hope we are able to change your mind about some of the old outdated info you are still following.

Thank you so much for your time and attention, I do take your advice and please do not mistake me defending my position with not taking your advice seriously, i'm already soaking slightly the soil with water and i'm planning on getting on of those humidifiers, but I just want to be very sure about what I'm doing because it would be hateful for these tortoises to die for the wrong reasons when i'm putting a lot of effort into them. I have so many different opinions that come from many veterans like you that I don't know what to do.

 

[FLINTUS]

@Tom , a thought here:
As we've seen, 80%+ humidity only works with high temps. These temps are not naturally what they'd get in the wild-you have much more variation throughout the day, as can be seen by exfoliation as I said earlier. But this does seem to produce smooth tortoises, while colder temps cause problems.
However, drier raised Sulcata and pardalis when kept at constant high temps, unnaturally, for instance constant 80+ as you said above, do generally pyramid. But when kept so they can cool off at night, they generally do fine and don't pyramid. This is why, @Juan V and other Mediterranean climate keepers e.g. The Tortoise Trust, have had success with keeping them outside, because they are not subjected to constant high temperatures. It appears that when kept dry, temps also need to vary a lot, as they would when the habitat is dry, and the sky is cloudless-no rain, lack of moisture- in the wild. Therefore, this is what they'd experience 9 months a year, and the other 2-3 months is the rainy season, when temps are statistically higher, and don't change as much.
Both ways work when kept like this, but as we've seen dry and constant high temps produces pyramiding, and humid and low temps causes respiratory infections. Thermoregulation is a known factor in the growth of the shell, and therefore I believe that we need to look at moisture and temperature as one single thing, not two isolated factors.

 

[Tom]

Tom, I believe Senegal is one of the wetter countries in the range-considering it is shared by erosa and homeana as well as a country-, so while Tomas is v.experienced with African chelonia, I wouldn't take it as a mode average for the range.

Neither you, nor I know what the rainfall is in the actual areas where sulcatas occur. I think Tomas would have a closer idea than either of us, but again, here we are debating about what may or may not be happening in the wild. I KNOW what happens in my captive environments.

 

[Zeko]

Gotta ask the obvious question here....

If you can produce smooth tortoises without high humidity, then SHOW US YOUR SMOOTH TORTOISE.

So far I see a lot of talk, a lot of opinions, but Tom's method is the only one producing perfectly smooth tortoises that I have seen and tested myself.

Less talk, more proof.

 

[Tom]

African plains do get very cool at night due to lack of cloud cover to put it simply. A lot of heat is lost during the night, but as you said, it warms up v.high during the day. But the SURFACE TEMPERATURE will easily get down to 60, and often much lower, in parts of their range.

Not according to my research. I've been watching the temperatures in areas near where sulcatas actually occur and night temps seldom drop below the 70s. Still, this info is flawed because those temperatures are being measured in weather stations 6 feet (2 meter) above the surface of the ground. Unless there is an unknown to science species of flying tortoise, these temps don't carry much relevance for a species that spends 95% to 98% of it life underground. Again your argument is based on what you speculate happens in the wild. My argument is based on what actually really happens every day in my own enclosures.

 

[Tom]

CONSTANT 80% humidity is not natural, the shell becomes too dense and heavy. Even red foots need time to dry off, as in their case, it causes shell rot. V.few species live in constant high humidity environments, manouria, indotestudo, and erosa/homeana being the exceptions, most of the time.

Again I disagree completely. You think that during the course of 3-4 months of rain, in hot weather, under impenetrable thickets of vegetation on damp ground humidity does not reach and stay at 80% in the wild? I think it does. I think it is probably much higher than 80% on the ground in those thickets. According the the man who lives there and studies the area it is higher than 80%.

And no, the shell does not become too dense or too heavy when housed in these conditions. Why would you even make such a ridiculous claim to me? I have raised literally hundreds of them this way and others have raised hundreds more, and not a one has a shell that is too dense or too heavy. Do you have even a single tortoise that you have raised this way with a shell that is too dense or too heavy? Or have you not ever raised a sulcata this way? What evidence do you have to back up the claim that 80% humidity cause any such malady? I have hundreds of little bits of evidence running around to prove that in fact, 80% humidity does NOT cause thickening of the carapace.

Yes red foots are prone to shell rot in wet environments. Sulcatas are not prone to shell rot in any environment, and no one here is suggesting sulcatas be kept in wet conditions at any time. Even with high humidity, conditions in my closed chambers are relatively dry on top.

Yet again you are speculating about what you think happens in the wild, and yet again, there is no speculation on my part about the facts that I have been witnessing first hand for more than 6 years right in front of me.

 

[Zeko]

Not worth the effort, I'm out.

Looks like I can't delete the photos.

Top two are are Juan's raised the exact same way you are describing: temp swings and no humidity.

Bottom is mine, similar sized, raised at 90% humidity.

 

[Tom]

@Tom , a thought here:
As we've seen, 80%+ humidity only works with high temps. These temps are not naturally what they'd get in the wild-you have much more variation throughout the day, as can be seen by exfoliation as I said earlier.

I don't agree. Not with any of this post. I believe these temps ARE what they get in the wild when you get underground and away from the surface extremes of day time highs and night time lows. My burrow temps here in summer, which simulates their temps over there in their winter, tell me so. Their summers are even hotter, day and night, so the burrow temps should be even higher than what I get here. And there is NO variation in my burrow temps through out the day and night. In fact there is only 1 or 2 degrees of variation throughout the entire summer.

What makes you think otherwise, and what is exfoliation in regards to this discussion? That is something my wife talks about on her face...

 

[Tom]

However, drier raised Sulcata and pardalis when kept at constant high temps, unnaturally, for instance constant 80+ as you said above, do generally pyramid. But when kept so they can cool off at night, they generally do fine and don't pyramid.

Not true again. I used to use a night time drop with mine down into the high 60s or low 70s, back when I used to follow the advice to keep them dry. THey did not do fine, and they DID pyramid.

 

[Tom]

This is why, @Juan V and other Mediterranean climate keepers e.g. The Tortoise Trust, have had success with keeping them outside, because they are not subjected to constant high temperatures. It appears that when kept dry, temps also need to vary a lot, as they would when the habitat is dry, and the sky is cloudless-no rain, lack of moisture- in the wild. Therefore, this is what they'd experience 9 months a year, and the other 2-3 months is the rainy season, when temps are statistically higher, and don't change as much.
Both ways work when kept like this, but as we've seen dry and constant high temps produces pyramiding, and humid and low temps causes respiratory infections.

All false premises here. Based on incorrect speculation of what happens in the wild. My climate is very similar to the Mediterranean climate. Tortoises kept outside here will pyramid if tremendous attention is not paid to humidity and temperatures when they are small and growing a lot.

When kept dry, the temperatures do not matter as far as pyramiding is concerned. If kept dry (meaning low humidity and low hydration) they will pyramid regardless of temperatures. Again I have living proof of this, while you have speculation.

They don't "experience" 9 months of dry conditions in the wild because they are UNDERGROUND where it is not dry, or hot , or cold.

The only correct assertion in this whole post is that cold temps with high humidity can cause respiratory infections.