Humidity simplified

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N2TORTS

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Oh yea …here we go … “ I juss love *SCIENCE*
The term most often used to define the amount of water vapor in the air is "relative humidity." Relative humidity is the percentage of water vapor in the air at a specific temperature, compared to the amount of water vapor the air is capable of holding at that temperature. Warm air holds more water vapor than cold air. When air at a certain temperature contains all the water vapor it can hold at that temperature, its relative humidity is 100 percent. If it contains only half the water vapor it is capable of holding at that temperature, the relative humidity is 50 percent.
If the outside air temperature in winter is 0°F and the relative humidity is 75 percent, that same air inside your 70°F home will have a four percent relative humidity. That’s dry!
The savannas of Africa, from Sudan to the southern Cape has an average relative high humidity of 25 percent and rarely exceeds 6 percent. So, it’s a oxymoron of the actual correct way to keep leopards at a high humidity. Or that “ wild “ Leopards are smooth “ because they come from aka . High humidity areas ( which they don’t , or high humidity compared to what?) …which = less pyramiding…just a thought …….

But here is a neat trick you can try to test humidity Drop three ice cubes into a glass, add water and stir. Wait three minutes. If moisture does not form on the outside of the glass, the air is too dry; you may need a humidifier.

Some interesting facts on “ humidity in the home”
One person’s breathing produces 1/4 cup of water per hour. Cooking for a family of four produces approximately five pints of water in 24 hours. Showering puts 1/2 pint of water into the air. Bathing puts 1/8 pint of water into the air.


Happy “ HUMID TORT~N:p

JD~:D
 

Tom

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What you just said about leopards is precisely the reason that all the captive ones you've ever seen are pyramided. Only in the last couple of years have it become known that we were all wrong for decades. You haven't caught up yet, huh? Your supposition is a logical conclusion, but we now know that is is wrong. There are at least two reasons for this.
1. Babies and small ones don't just walk around in the open sun. They stay in humid underground burrows or dig in to the moist root balls of plants. They are almost never seen above ground.

2. There are an infinite number of microlimates in the area you just listed. That area is nearly as large as the USA. I don't know what the average humidity is in the USA, but humidity is lower than the average in my area and higher than average in Southern Florida. There are just as many different climates in those parts of Africa, as there are here.
The climate in Johannesburg is just like Santa Clarita, Cape Town is like San Francisco and George, a little way up the East Coast is just like the Pacific Northwest. I shot a movie there called "The Breed" (not such a great movie, but excellent dog work). Most the exterior shots were up in George and it was supposed to look like Puget Sound. Those regions I mentioned are only in the Southern portion of their range. This only accounts for a small portion of they hugely variable range.

I don't mean to insult you, but please study up on this a bit more before un-doing all the education the good folks here on the forum have been trying to get out there. We all used to say the same thing you just said, but we know better now.
 

N2TORTS

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Tom said:
. You haven't caught up yet, huh? Your supposition is a logical conclusion,
I don't mean to insult you, but please study up on this a bit more before un-doing all the education the good folks here on the forum have been trying to get out there. We all used to say the same thing you just said, but we know better now.
You have valid points ...but let me guess.. you have breed leps for 10 ..20 .. 30 years ... SO what ! and what caught up to you?
WHO SAID I WAS EDUCATING?...I was opening debate.....better yet ... just trying to explain Humidity.....and thought you so called tort experts might like some tricks ... on humidty ...Just as well I see so much mis info on here as well...some of it is just common since. Not what you have read or just pertains to tortoises.
MAYBE YOU MIS READ THIS~The savannas of Africa, from Sudan to the southern Cape has an average relative high humidity of 25 percent and rarely exceeds 6 percent. So, it’s a oxymoron of the actual correct way to keep leopards at a high humidity. Or that “ wild “ Leopards are smooth “ because they come from aka . High humidity areas ( which they don’t , or high humidity compared to what?) …which = less pyramiding…just a thought …….
JUST A THOUGHT* KEYWORD NOT AN EDUCATION!
"I don't mean to insult you, but please study up on this a bit more before un-doing all the education" <...What let me guess you read and study .... thus your an expert? Some of you take this way to serious... and let me tell you.. people have had leps in this country .... Long before any "books or manuals" have been published. They are all still theories..........OH yea ... Keep you little Leo Nice and "humid" ... and while your at it.. stockup on BAYTRIL!
 
M

Maggie Cummings

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Even tho this is the debatable section, we still need to act like adults without personal insults, so lets please pretend we have manners and debate this subject rationally.
Thank you...
 

Tom

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I've been keeping Leopards in this country since the early nineties. Every single one of them pyramided, because I kept them dry on a dry substrate in a dry climate. Ditto for everyone else. I did this because that's what we all thought we were supposed to do. We looked up the same climatological data that you did, and figured since its dry where they come from, we'd better keep them dry. We were wrong, plain and simple.

We've all been banging our heads against this same wall for decades. We do everything "right", but our torts all look like a knobby tire.

Along comes Richard and Jerry Fife's "Leopard Tortoise" book in 2007. He started raising hatchlings with more humidity and humid hide boxes and, Voila!, smooth shells. The dry thing is so ingrained that we are all still arguing the fine points. My personal experiences and observations all over the globe back up his findings 100%. Check out these two things and then lets debate some more, if you still want to.
http://www.ivorytortoise.com/information/documents/pyramiding_in_tortoises.html
http://africantortoise.com/_sulcatadiet2.pdf

BTW, if you don't have the Fifes' book, I highly recommend it, regardless of what species you keep. I didn't even have a leopard at the time I bought it.
 

N2TORTS

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Tom said:
I've been keeping Leopards in this country since the early nineties. Every single one of them pyramided, because I kept them dry on a dry substrate in a dry climate. Ditto for everyone else. I did this because that's what we all thought we were supposed to do. We looked up the same climatological data that you did, and figured since its dry where they come from, we'd better keep them dry. We were wrong, plain and simple.

We've all been banging our heads against this same wall for decades. We do everything "right", but our torts all look like a knobby tire.

Along comes Richard and Jerry Fife's "Leopard Tortoise" book in 2007. He started raising hatchlings with more humidity and humid hide boxes and, Voila!, smooth shells. The dry thing is so ingrained that we are all still arguing the fine points. My personal experiences and observations all over the globe back up his findings 100%. Check out these two things and then lets debate some more, if you still want to.
http://www.ivorytortoise.com/information/documents/pyramiding_in_tortoises.html
http://africantortoise.com/_sulcatadiet2.pdf

BTW, if you don't have the Fifes' book, I highly recommend it, regardless of what species you keep. I didn't even have a leopard at the time I bought it.

I AGREE..... you still dont get it??????... why do you think I was expalining humidty .... Better yet ... why since 1973 when I recieved my first Leopard hatchling from the SanDiego Zoo... MY FATHER is the HEAD OF SCRIPPS I had connects at an early age... 45 years later ... I just have personal experience....
LooK at Leo MOLESTO ... Thread .. that pic is from 1982!
Even as such ... I DID NOT SAY KEEP YOUR LEOPARD DRY!
Next time I wont even Post in this Debate BS!
PS ... HERE IS a COOL way TO INCRESE HUMIDTY* OH YEA FOLKS its NOT and EDUCATION" .. just an Idea..... and blows away Humidifers?..Let me guess ya got it at longs?:D
This Is the RedFOOT HOUSE!
mist1.jpg
mist-1.jpg
mistfitting.jpg


<~~~~-----------------I don't mean to insult you, but please study up on this a bit more before un-doing all the education the good folks here on the forum have been trying to get out there. We all used to say the same thing you just said, but we know better now.

-------------------------------------------I think you already did ! -------------------------------------
A.K.A. Roachman26
Remember, wherever you go, there you are. ---------------------------------------------------------------
A.K.A. Roachman26
Remember, wherever you go, there you are.
 

Madkins007

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N2... you said that in the savannahs, there is an "average relative high humidity of 25 percent and rarely exceeds 6 percent." You said it twice. Did you mean it rarely exceeds 60%, or that it is rarely below 6%?

You started off with a definition of humidity, then went to bit about Leopard Tortoises, that I am not sure exactly what point you were making, then you commented back to Tom in a way that also did not seem as clear as it could have been. Are you saying that Tom is wrong in his statements? Do you have proof of your statements? (Edit: In your later post (made when I was writing this), you say you were agreeing with him- it sure did not sound like that to me. Please- continue to post, but I think there was just confusion about what point you were trying to make.)

You also talk about interesting things about Relative Humidity. Another interesting point about relative humidity might be that if the air is 85F/29C, it takes about 11 grams of water per kilogram of air to make 50% humidity, or, about 1.5 teaspoons of water in about a cubic yard.

Therefore, In my tortoise room, which is about 12x12x8, I have about 40 cubic yards of air in my tortoise room, so it would take about 1.25 cups of water to bring it to about 50% humidity, and about 2 cups to get it to about 75% relative humidity. If the air in the room changes over over in an hour, I need to throw about 3 gallons of water into the air every day.

You don't need to do all this figuring to get a good humidity, of course, all you need is a simple gauge. I just tossed out the numbers to show how it works.

(By the way, your definition of relative humidity has a common error in it. To quote Wikipedia "Often the notion of air holding water vapor is presented to describe the concept of relative humidity. However, air simply acts as a transporter of water vapour and is not a holder of it. Therefore, relative humidity is wholly understood in terms of the physical properties of water alone and thus is unrelated to this concept.[2][3] In fact, water vapor can be present in an airless volume and therefore the relative humidity of this volume can be readily determined." In other words, you don't need the word 'air' in your definition.)

Science IS fun!
 

Tom

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Sorry JD, I must have mis-understood you. When I read this paragraph, I mistook it to say that you were saying leopards don't need humidity. If you meant it some other way, then you have my apologies for offending your sensibilities.
N2TORTS said:
The savannas of Africa, from Sudan to the southern Cape has an average relative high humidity of 25 percent and rarely exceeds 6 percent. So, it’s a oxymoron of the actual correct way to keep leopards at a high humidity. Or that “ wild “ Leopards are smooth “ because they come from aka . High humidity areas ( which they don’t , or high humidity compared to what?) …which = less pyramiding…just a thought …….


maggie3fan said:
Even tho this is the debatable section, we still need to act like adults without personal insults, so lets please pretend we have manners and debate this subject rationally.
Thank you...

Thank you Maggie for the level-headedness, but I don't need to pretend. Rational debate sounds excellent to me.
 

N2TORTS

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Madkins007 said:
(By the way, your definition of relative humidity has a common error in it. To quote Wikipedia "Often the notion of air holding water vapor is presented to describe the concept of relative humidity. However, air simply acts as a transporter of water vapour and is not a holder of it. Therefore, relative humidity is wholly understood in terms of the physical properties of water alone and thus is unrelated to this concept.[2][3] In fact, water vapor can be present in an airless volume and therefore the relative humidity of this volume can be readily determined." In other words, you don't need the word 'air' in your definition.)

Science IS fun!
There was no Point ...just some topics about humidity and leopards got thrown in ... I have seen alot of questions about it ... I agree with tom ,( I just want to see these smooth leopards that everyone has... IN PERSON! exspecially if they figured this out ..... and when was that ? or is just the latest debatable topic ... last month it was species of redfoots...... ...maybe we all have a different opinions .............I just wanted to start a cat fight! :cool:
LOL... WIKI.......*QUOTE*
"Absolute humidity is the quantity of water in a particular volume of air. The most common units are grams per cubic meter, although any mass unit and any volume unit could be used. Pounds per cubic foot is common in the U.S., and occasionally even other units mixing the Imperial and metric systems are used."

Here is a little more " realistic version"
Citation: Pidwirny, M. (2006). "Atmospheric Humidity". Fundamentals of Physical Geography, 2nd Edition. Date Viewed. http://www.physicalgeography.net/fundamentals/8c.html

N2... you said that in the savannahs, there is an "average relative high humidity of 25 percent and rarely exceeds 6 percent." You said it twice. Did you mean it rarely exceeds 60%, or that it is rarely below 6%?

You started off with a definition of humidity, then went to bit about Leopard Tortoises, that I am not sure exactly what point you were making, then you commented back to Tom in a way that also did not seem as clear as it could have been. Are you saying that Tom is wrong in his statements? Do you have proof of your statements?
**** <~~sure
( and I dont think the whole continent is just one " climate" Iam aware of micro climates ... ) But here are some Facts:
Dry Tropical Climate (BW) desert biome, low land grassy.
These desert climates are found in low-latitude deserts approximately between 18° to 28° in both hemispheres. these latitude belts are centered on the tropics of Cancer and Capricorn, which lie just north and south of the equator. They coincide with the edge of the equatorial subtropical high pressure belt and trade winds. Winds are light, which allows for the evaporation of moisture in the intense heat. They generally flow downward so the area is seldom penetrated by air masses that produce rain. This makes for a very dry heat. The dry arid desert is a true desert climate, and covers 12 % of the Earth's land surface.

Temperature Range: 16° C
Annual Precipitation: 0.25 cm (0.1 in). All months less than 0.25 cm (0.1 in).
Humidity Range: 6%-25% average
Latitude Range: 15° - 25° N and S.
Global Range: southwestern United States and northern Mexico; Argentina; north Africa; south Africa; central part of Australia.
Bibliography:
Strahler, Arthur N., Strahler, Arthur H., Elements of Physical Geography. John Wiley & Sons, 1984.

Although ... it shows .. currently 40 - 90 % right now!
So let me ask you and tom .... ALL tortoises are effected to pyramiding because of humidity ?..even thou they come from totally two diff parts of the world? ...Or we are back to square one .. and its diet?.. Or a combo?.....
I wasnt trying to educate...but Iam not a follower either .. cuzz he/she says so ....Nor just cuzz some one has tons of posts ... They are the GURU ... and rasing torts since 90's ... is that supposed to impress me .. why I threw in my comment ... about pops > I have have had torts for 37 years now ... and still have the first one from 1973! a DT. I never entered these posts before and was told by some serious collectors and breeders.... " Dont bother" ... Iam now understanding why I was told that ! and this is not a jab ... just an observation.
JD~
 

Tom

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JD, I only mentioned how long I've been keeping leopards because you asked. Or at least I thought you did. I have no desire to impress anyone. I do have a desire to learn everything I can, though. If I were an expert, I'd have a ton of smooth, captive raised, African tortoises to show you. I have none. I am only a student. Maybe someday, I'll achieve expert status. Maybe...
 

N2TORTS

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Very Cool ..... like I said I wasn’t trying to educate anyone on how to keep leopards. It was more of a humidity tid-bit. What’s really odd is this pyramiding occurs in several different types of torts that I have seen and owned. even with trying old and up to date “ guide lines” … Not to say I haven’t raised perfect smooth specimens. But for me personally the tropical torts seem to favo my area better. I”am not a “ in house” keeper as all of my torts are outside Year round! ( of course heated hides/houses for winter in their enclosure‘s) all of them except my Leo’s . I bring them in every night , because it gets too chilly/coastal/wet here at night .
JD~


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GBtortoises

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I'm jumping into this one only to state that when you're talking about "humidity" as related to tortoise keeping I think you need to look at two different aspects of it: 1) Ambient air humidity & 2) Substrate moisture. Many people lump the two together and call it humidity but they are actually two different and important aspects. Ambient air humidity is just what it says it is. You can have ambient air humidity and still have a relatively dry substrate once heat is added (basking light). Unless you trap it, it will evaporate. This does a young, developing tortoise little good because that tortoise will naturally burrow into the substrate or sometimes hide box, if the temperatures get too high in order to escape the heat and light. Unless you have a covered enclosure, run a humidifier on high in the room or live in an area where very little home heating is necessary, you will have an extremely difficult time keeping an acceptable level of humidity within the ambient air of the enclosure.
But by adding moisture to the substrate and a constantly humid hide box you will provide a cooler, damper resting area for the tortoise to retreat too. I think this is when "humidity" is the most important, when the tortoises body actually comes in physical contact with the moisture.
But I think both factors have to be present to be effective to the degree that they will benefit smoother growth.
 

N2TORTS

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GBtortoises said:
I'm jumping into this one only to state that when you're talking about "humidity" as related to tortoise keeping I think you need to look at two different aspects of it: 1) Ambient air humidity & 2) Substrate moisture. Many people lump the two together and call it humidity but they are actually two different and important aspects. Ambient air humidity is just what it says it is. You can have ambient air humidity and still have a relatively dry substrate once heat is added (basking light). Unless you trap it, it will evaporate. This does a young, developing tortoise little good because that tortoise will naturally burrow into the substrate or sometimes hide box, if the temperatures get too high in order to escape the heat and light. Unless you have a covered enclosure, run a humidifier on high in the room or live in an area where very little home heating is necessary, you will have an extremely difficult time keeping an acceptable level of humidity within the ambient air of the enclosure.
But by adding moisture to the substrate and a constantly humid hide box you will provide a cooler, damper resting area for the tortoise to retreat too. I think this is when "humidity" is the most important, when the tortoises body actually comes in physical contact with the moisture.
But I think both factors have to be present to be effective to the degree that they will benefit smoother growth.

See Above Pics= ya think it provides moist substrait?:D
 

Yvonne G

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JD: I really don't think the ambient air humidity in any given country matters. The humidity the baby tortoise needs in the wild is provided by the baby himself in the form of poop and pee in his burrow, plus what little moisture there is in the earth down in his burrow.
 

N2TORTS

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emysemys said:
JD: I really don't think the ambient air humidity in any given country matters. The humidity the baby tortoise needs in the wild is provided by the baby himself in the form of poop and pee in his burrow, plus what little moisture there is in the earth down in his burrow.

Iam not saying it does...Iam throwing ideas out to see feedback. Your comment was one of the smartest things said yet....about their feces,and with the decay and other organic matter around it "composts" or breaks down and provides heat as well..:cool:
 

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It may just be that I am getting old, but I am having a hard time figuring out what you are saying or trying to say- your posts are not easy for me to decipher. Therefore, I apologize if I am missing a point.

As for the importance of humidity (used in the more generic way) compared to other factors, there was a study done with Sulcata that was supposed to show that diet/protein was key, but instead showed that humidity was 'it'. (www.reptileuvinfo.com/docs/humidity-pyrmiding-sulcata-tortois.pdf)

I will absolutely agree that there are different kinds of moisture. I personally think that there is a difference between moisture in the lungs (humidity), the skin (surface moisture, humidity, etc.), moisture in the stomach (surface moistened foods, drinking water) and moisture in the digestive tract (internally moistened foods, drinking water).

I think too much or too little water in each of the above categories can have different effects, and I suspect we sometimes focus too much on humidity alone when total hydration may be the more important issue.
 

Tom

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Madkins007 said:
It may just be that I am getting old, but I am having a hard time figuring out what you are saying or trying to say- your posts are not easy for me to decipher. Therefore, I apologize if I am missing a point.

As for the importance of humidity (used in the more generic way) compared to other factors, there was a study done with Sulcata that was supposed to show that diet/protein was key, but instead showed that humidity was 'it'. (www.reptileuvinfo.com/docs/humidity-pyrmiding-sulcata-tortois.pdf)

I will absolutely agree that there are different kinds of moisture. I personally think that there is a difference between moisture in the lungs (humidity), the skin (surface moisture, humidity, etc.), moisture in the stomach (surface moistened foods, drinking water) and moisture in the digestive tract (internally moistened foods, drinking water).

I think too much or too little water in each of the above categories can have different effects, and I suspect we sometimes focus too much on humidity alone when total hydration may be the more important issue.

Hi Mark. Your link isn't working for me. Is that the Austrian study that is listed on africantortoise.com, or is it something different?
 

Madkins007

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Tom, yes it is. Sorry I messed up the cut and paste.
 
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