Is Hibernation Absolutely Required?

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ascott

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Carnivorouszoo....you know what to do to allow your beadie to brumate....not complicated nor involved, right. I know what to do to allow a tortoise to brumate...not complicated nor involved.

My only reason for this parallel is to point out something is usually scary until you know what you are doing...then that scary thing is no longer complicated nor involved.

People will always have their own take on the new and unfamiliar...we are after all, only human.....:D:D
 

Jacqui

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It's not fear of the unknown nor something new that stops me from hibernating my tortoises. Fact is, I hibernated a Desert tortoise for several years using the box in the closet method. For several years I hibernated the Russians (and other species) in the fridge. For well over 15 years, I have hibernated outdoors "naturally" (as in letting them decide the when and where) many Ornate and three toes box turtles, paints, red eared sliders, and snappers.

After years of doing this and by several different methods and several different species, along with talking with others, I have made the choice to only hibernate my snappers. The reason? My knowledge and experience (along with those of other experienced keepers) made me decide the risks were not out weighing the possible negative factors.

While I believe in keeping my tortoises as naturally as possible, this is just one area where I go against the natural way. I never lost any animals during the actual hibernation, but did loose two box turtles and a Red eared slider shortly after they emerged. Was it because of the hibernation? Who really can tell?

I simply care too much and have too much invested in my current animals, to ever take a chance on something for which I am not seeing a true need for. For example, my Russians still exhibit the same behavior and breed just as well for me without hibernating them.

So this is where I stand on hibernation. If you want to hibernate your animals, that's your choice. If you choose, like me, not to, then that's fine too. We each have to look at the facts and go from there. There is no right way or wrong way.
 

Terry Allan Hall

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Jacqui said:
It's not fear of the unknown nor something new that stops me from hibernating my tortoises. Fact is, I hibernated a Desert tortoise for several years using the box in the closet method. For several years I hibernated the Russians (and other species) in the fridge. For well over 15 years, I have hibernated outdoors "naturally" (as in letting them decide the when and where) many Ornate and three toes box turtles, paints, red eared sliders, and snappers.

After years of doing this and by several different methods and several different species, along with talking with others, I have made the choice to only hibernate my snappers. The reason? My knowledge and experience (along with those of other experienced keepers) made me decide the risks were not out weighing the possible negative factors.

While I believe in keeping my tortoises as naturally as possible, this is just one area where I go against the natural way. I never lost any animals during the actual hibernation, but did loose two box turtles and a Red eared slider shortly after they emerged. Was it because of the hibernation? Who really can tell?

I simply care too much and have too much invested in my current animals, to ever take a chance on something for which I am not seeing a true need for. For example, my Russians still exhibit the same behavior and breed just as well for me without hibernating them.

So this is where I stand on hibernation. If you want to hibernate your animals, that's your choice. If you choose, like me, not to, then that's fine too. We each have to look at the facts and go from there. There is no right way or wrong way.

Well stated! :cool:
 

CactusVinnie

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Although over 1 month late, I wanted to let you know that all my tortoises came just fine after a good hibernation: from 11 November to 20 March.

Hatchlings of native T. ibera were just fine, as 2-4 years old Greek origin Boettgeri. All those small guys are now visible heavier and growth lines appeared. I would say one word about their state: thriving :)!!

Cheers!
 

Terry Allan Hall

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CactusVinnie said:
Although over 1 month late, I wanted to let you know that all my tortoises came just fine after a good hibernation: from 11 November to 20 March.

Hatchlings of native T. ibera were just fine, as 2-4 years old Greek origin Boettgeri. All those small guys are now visible heavier and growth lines appeared. I would say one word about their state: thriving :)!!

Cheers!

As are my tortoises/Ornate boxies, who spent their winters chowing down and thriving...both methods are viable. :cool:
 

ascott

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Hey Vinnie....:D

Happy to hear the news....it is always wonderful to hear all is good....the CDTs here all went in and out of brumation safely...YAAAAYYYYY ....so enjoying them up and about....check in again.

CHEERS!:p
 

CactusVinnie

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YES, IT IS!

http://academicpublishingplatforms....imical_standardization_of_tortezin_pp.2-8.pdf

EDIT: the link did not work when previwed or posted :(... just Google search "tortezin testudo horsfieldi" and it is the first find: "BIOCHEMICAL STANDARDIZATION OF TORTEZIN, A NOVEL
IMMUNOSTIMULATOR FROM THE TORTOISE BLOOD CELLS".
If you can put the link in a manner that works, please do it- and that PDF is worthy to be saved, anyway.


I hope that the absence of some very important substances in non-hibernating tortoises, compared to normal hibernating tortoises IS a "scientific proof" that hibernation is essential for a complete biochemical configuration and a fully functional endocrine sistem, metabolism and immunity. If an animal cannot produce such important compounds when overwintered, but can do that when hibernated, I think it is enough proof.

Of course, I expect The Usual Deniers :D to reply that it demonstrates nothing but a small change, not essential, but I will ask them in that case to READ that it is a miraculous complex of substances, essential ones for the hardiness of a tortoise, not to be overlooked. Their environment built them to be hardy, and their blood tells a tale.
Yes, tortoises maybe still breed and live, but here is the proof that they are BIOCHEMICALLY INCOMPLETE compared to what they usually are, if denied hibernation.

In the case that T.U.D. accept the importance of hibernation for Horsfieldi only- "you know, it is the species that lives underground for 9 months, but it is the only one doing that etc."- I also expect them to keep saying it was not demonstrated for other tortoise species, so not essential for these species...
If so, I have nothing to say anymore, it is a lost cause- I accidentally stumbled upon that article, but I am pretty sure I will not find again studies for the other temperate species confirming the same thing, just by other accident or random search :).
Then what? If next study will be for Hermanni, that will not prove nothing for Boettgeri, for instance, even less for Ibera, I think... If done for Boettgeri and Ibera too, and proof appear, then it would be "ok, but the study was done on Bulgarian Boettgeri and Ibera, and demonstrates NOTHING for other ecotypes"- all that proving that non-believers will be non-believers, even with the proof in front of them.

It is only the beginning, and that research it was done just from medical reasons, not to find how a tortoise can be kept optimally in captivity conditions... so I am pretty sure it would be the only proof for some time, at least for a good while...

Conclusion: keep tortoises as they were intended for- outdoors, learn "how to", and do it when you checked all the requirements for hibernation. I am not pushing my opinion, make you risk your tortoises lives, but I just tried to explain that what is natural, even not yet proved, is better than any limited human knowledge or experience.

Sooner or later, all the Nature ways will be explained, but it would be wise from our part to understand that from now, not questioning every aspect until proved. How many human life-times should we have, to prove every thing that Nature did in millions of years of evolution? The knowledge is in front of us, it is ridiculous to wait 1000 generations to accumulate a knowledge that can be simply accepted using common sense, this way allowing us to save time and avoid some of the consequences of our ignorance.
 

kerimarie

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I don't wish to hibernate my tortoise, however, this is what is required for my breed which is a marginated, therefore I educated myself fully and hibernate my tortie xxx
 

Terry Allan Hall

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CactusVinnie said:
YES, IT IS!

http://academicpublishingplatforms....imical_standardization_of_tortezin_pp.2-8.pdf

EDIT: the link did not work when previwed or posted :(... just Google search "tortezin testudo horsfieldi" and it is the first find: "BIOCHEMICAL STANDARDIZATION OF TORTEZIN, A NOVEL
IMMUNOSTIMULATOR FROM THE TORTOISE BLOOD CELLS".
If you can put the link in a manner that works, please do it- and that PDF is worthy to be saved, anyway.


I hope that the absence of some very important substances in non-hibernating tortoises, compared to normal hibernating tortoises IS a "scientific proof" that hibernation is essential for a complete biochemical configuration and a fully functional endocrine sistem, metabolism and immunity. If an animal cannot produce such important compounds when overwintered, but can do that when hibernated, I think it is enough proof.

Of course, I expect The Usual Deniers :D to reply that it demonstrates nothing but a small change, not essential, but I will ask them in that case to READ that it is a miraculous complex of substances, essential ones for the hardiness of a tortoise, not to be overlooked. Their environment built them to be hardy, and their blood tells a tale.
Yes, tortoises maybe still breed and live, but here is the proof that they are BIOCHEMICALLY INCOMPLETE compared to what they usually are, if denied hibernation.

In the case that T.U.D. accept the importance of hibernation for Horsfieldi only- "you know, it is the species that lives underground for 9 months, but it is the only one doing that etc."- I also expect them to keep saying it was not demonstrated for other tortoise species, so not essential for these species...
If so, I have nothing to say anymore, it is a lost cause- I accidentally stumbled upon that article, but I am pretty sure I will not find again studies for the other temperate species confirming the same thing, just by other accident or random search :).
Then what? If next study will be for Hermanni, that will not prove nothing for Boettgeri, for instance, even less for Ibera, I think... If done for Boettgeri and Ibera too, and proof appear, then it would be "ok, but the study was done on Bulgarian Boettgeri and Ibera, and demonstrates NOTHING for other ecotypes"- all that proving that non-believers will be non-believers, even with the proof in front of them.

It is only the beginning, and that research it was done just from medical reasons, not to find how a tortoise can be kept optimally in captivity conditions... so I am pretty sure it would be the only proof for some time, at least for a good while...

Conclusion: keep tortoises as they were intended for- outdoors, learn "how to", and do it when you checked all the requirements for hibernation. I am not pushing my opinion, make you risk your tortoises lives, but I just tried to explain that what is natural, even not yet proved, is better than any limited human knowledge or experience.

Sooner or later, all the Nature ways will be explained, but it would be wise from our part to understand that from now, not questioning every aspect until proved. How many human life-times should we have, to prove every thing that Nature did in millions of years of evolution? The knowledge is in front of us, it is ridiculous to wait 1000 generations to accumulate a knowledge that can be simply accepted using common sense, this way allowing us to save time and avoid some of the consequences of our ignorance.

Quite familiar with that "study", Fabian...

Brumation is absolutely optional and pet tortoises live full and very healthy lives w/o it. :cool:
 

CactusVinnie

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Terry, it is a quite new "study" (BTW, why quotation marks? Sounds like a bad joke to you or what?), from 2011! Either you may mistaken it with something else, or you are guilty as charged for not showing it to us :D!

"Full" lives- really doubt- as I said, if they live 70, it is quite a lot for us, but considering that they can reach 150, that means their live is reduced to a half only.

You cannot discard a study simply by using quotation marks and repeating that it's optional. It is just not possible.
Facts were asked as proof- here's the facts! Blood lacking some compounds when non-hibernating, meaning their bodies cannot synthesize them when active all year. I already said that the fact overwintering doesn't kill them, neither make them sterile, is something different- but her's the proof that it's not ok either.

Even the study is not complete- and it is not the case for Tortezin stuff only (many compounds acting in synergy)...

We have failed to isolate its “active principles”, that is, one or more components responsible for its effect. Various kinds of purification caused reduction of its biological activity hundred fold. In our opinion, unique biological effects of Tortezin depend on specific ratio of its major and minor components making it similar to ginseng.

... it was demonstrated that it has unquestionable biostimulating qualities:

Studies on model animal systems (rats, mice and rabbits) demonstrated good hemo- and
immune-stimulating, anti-anemic and gerontoprotective effect of Tortezin.


... and producing these substances is STRICTLY conditioned by long winter sleep, respecting the natural cycles:

For 10 months a year it hibernates. For 2 spring months the animals has to replenish reserves, to accumulate new ones and to mate (Lagarde et al., 2003). This is the time when the tortoise’s blood contains many biogenic stimulators. The blood preparation from non-hibernating, active for 12 months a year tortoises living in the terrarium is lacking these substances.

So, even incomplete and still with lots of questions left unanswered, regardless of their medical or commercial interests, the study contains this last affirmation, that has nothing to do with "Hibernation debate" on our forum or any hibernation debate... it is just a fact: non-hibernators lack that "something".

Nothing unclear, but I admire your Texas stubborness ;)! I could have use that quality if I had it, at least in some respects, I am sure it paid you sometimes in realising good stuff, but it will never be a solid argument that overwintering is OK and hibernation is dangerous :D.
 

Terry Allan Hall

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CactusVinnie said:
Terry, it is a quite new "study" (BTW, why quotation marks? Sounds like a bad joke to you or what?), from 2011! Either you may mistaken it with something else, or you are guilty as charged for not showing it to us :D!

"Full" lives- really doubt- as I said, if they live 70, it is quite a lot for us, but considering that they can reach 150, that means their live is reduced to a half only.

You cannot discard a study simply by using quotation marks and repeating that it's optional. It is just not possible.
Facts were asked as proof- here's the facts! Blood lacking some compounds when non-hibernating, meaning their bodies cannot synthesize them when active all year. I already said that the fact overwintering doesn't kill them, neither make them sterile, is something different- but her's the proof that it's not ok either.

Even the study is not complete- and it is not the case for Tortezin stuff only (many compounds acting in synergy)...

We have failed to isolate its “active principles”, that is, one or more components responsible for its effect. Various kinds of purification caused reduction of its biological activity hundred fold. In our opinion, unique biological effects of Tortezin depend on specific ratio of its major and minor components making it similar to ginseng.

... it was demonstrated that it has unquestionable biostimulating qualities:

Studies on model animal systems (rats, mice and rabbits) demonstrated good hemo- and
immune-stimulating, anti-anemic and gerontoprotective effect of Tortezin.


... and producing these substances is STRICTLY conditioned by long winter sleep, respecting the natural cycles:

For 10 months a year it hibernates. For 2 spring months the animals has to replenish reserves, to accumulate new ones and to mate (Lagarde et al., 2003). This is the time when the tortoise’s blood contains many biogenic stimulators. The blood preparation from non-hibernating, active for 12 months a year tortoises living in the terrarium is lacking these substances.

So, even incomplete and still with lots of questions left unanswered, regardless of their medical or commercial interests, the study contains this last affirmation, that has nothing to do with "Hibernation debate" on our forum or any hibernation debate... it is just a fact: non-hibernators lack that "something".

Nothing unclear, but I admire your Texas stubborness ;)! I could have use that quality if I had it, at least in some respects, I am sure it paid you sometimes in realising good stuff, but it will never be a solid argument that overwintering is OK and hibernation is dangerous :D.

Vinnie/Fabian, brumation (tortoises do not hibernate) is not required, otherwise there would be no non-brumating sub-species of T. graeca...bruimation (and estivation, in the case of A. horsfieldi) is merely a Testudo's adaptation to adverse weather conditions...when a Testudo doesn't encounter said adverse weather conditins, it doesn't brumate.

Captive tortoises (that recieve good care) appreciably outlive wild tortoises, as a rule, even when over-wintered. In captivity, a tortoise can live, occasionally, to 150, true...otoh, in the wild, they never do, because they succumb to a great many things, predation from carnivores being but one.

BTW, captive bears do not hibernate when kept in the tropical zone zoos, yet also still live full lives, almost always appreciably longer than in the wild (30+, as oppopsed to 12-15).
 

CactusVinnie

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Terry, it is about TEMPERATE tortoises only. These ones have special adaptations compared to their mild climate relatives. A non-brumating African Graeca will never be able to endure the same things that a Romanian Ibera or Horsfieldi can do, and I suppose that freezing solid as hatchlings is one of those things.
Even if that Graeca wants to behave accordingly when encountering adverse conditions like hard freeze, it will not succeed. It is adapted to cope the adverse conditions specific to its environment, and long, freezing winters just kills them.

You have no source to affirm that captives outlive their wild conspecifics!!! Even a captive can live for decades, and you cannot have infos on lifespan on wild tortoises to simply say "captives live longer"! Even you count Timothy or the other Ibera from the Crimean War, both lived in England, OUTDOORS!
And death by predation doesn't count, we are talking about brumation/hibernation. The same for extreme events that don't fit the usual seasonal schedule- as floods, or snowless, windy and extreme cold winters etc.
Death by freezing solid for a month during a "one in 100 years winter" doesn't account as "death caused by brumation", I suppose we agree here. I just advocated standard brumation for our captives, not replicating extreme, wiping-out natural events!!!

Comparing mammals to reptiles is the same as you say in the US, "orange to apples".
A meat-eating Innuit subjected to that harsh climate will not live too long, compared to a Mediteranean that eats fish, fruits, vegetables, olive oil and dandelion/cichory salads. The same as for comparing wild vs captive animals- well-cared for captives always have a lot of stress factors removed; for a mammal, enduring cold is quite a challenge, and that puts a lot of stress on the animal metabolism.
In temperate reptiles, as in all temperate poikilotherms, is different: cold slows down the "burning" and prolonge life.

It still remains the question: if that "tortezin" complex is absent or biochemically incomplete in non-brumated subjects... isn't that a proof that there is something wrong- not immediate life-threatening, but wrong- when temperate tortoise are denied brumation?

People can live and procreate while having diabetes or other blood-related illnesses- they still live, thing that can make an hypothetical human-pet owner to say "correct blood-parameters are only optional, my humans live and I obtained viable offsprings from them; why bother to provide them natural food and opportunities to exercise, we anyway cannot keep them trying to replicate nature- as keeping them as pets is the first unnatural thing we do!"
 

Terry Allan Hall

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CactusVinnie said:
Terry, it is about TEMPERATE tortoises only. These ones have special adaptations compared to their mild climate relatives. A non-brumating African Graeca will never be able to endure the same things that a Romanian Ibera or Horsfieldi can do, and I suppose that freezing solid as hatchlings is one of those things.
Even if that Graeca wants to behave accordingly when encountering adverse conditions like hard freeze, it will not succeed. It is adapted to cope the adverse conditions specific to its environment, and long, freezing winters just kills them.

You have no source to affirm that captives outlive their wild conspecifics!!! Even a captive can live for decades, and you cannot have infos on lifespan on wild tortoises to simply say "captives live longer"! Even you count Timothy or the other Ibera from the Crimean War, both lived in England, OUTDOORS!
And death by predation doesn't count, we are talking about brumation/hibernation. The same for extreme events that don't fit the usual seasonal schedule- as floods, or snowless, windy and extreme cold winters etc.
Death by freezing solid for a month during a "one in 100 years winter" doesn't account as "death caused by brumation", I suppose we agree here. I just advocated standard brumation for our captives, not replicating extreme, wiping-out natural events!!!

Comparing mammals to reptiles is the same as you say in the US, "orange to apples".
A meat-eating Innuit subjected to that harsh climate will not live too long, compared to a Mediteranean that eats fish, fruits, vegetables, olive oil and dandelion/cichory salads. The same as for comparing wild vs captive animals- well-cared for captives always have a lot of stress factors removed; for a mammal, enduring cold is quite a challenge, and that puts a lot of stress on the animal metabolism.
In temperate reptiles, as in all temperate poikilotherms, is different: cold slows down the "burning" and prolonge life.

It still remains the question: if that "tortezin" complex is absent or biochemically incomplete in non-brumated subjects... isn't that a proof that there is something wrong- not immediate life-threatening, but wrong- when temperate tortoise are denied brumation?

People can live and procreate while having diabetes or other blood-related illnesses- they still live, thing that can make an hypothetical human-pet owner to say "correct blood-parameters are only optional, my humans live and I obtained viable offsprings from them; why bother to provide them natural food and opportunities to exercise, we anyway cannot keep them trying to replicate nature- as keeping them as pets is the first unnatural thing we do!"

And I keep trying to explain to you that brumation is ABSOLUTELY optional. There is still no reason why anyone MUST brumate ANY tortoise and quite a few reasons why brumating a pet tortoise is unwise.

As to why such obvious information offends your tender sensibilities is a matter I prefer not to explore...

And yes, I know first-hand about Diabetes, specifically Type II...about 15 years of first-hand experience.
 

CactusVinnie

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Well, Terry, that while me too, I am trying to explain that while brumation can be optional, it is not also optimal; a reason to do it being their longterm endocrine normality (health, immunity, hardiness).
Reasons not to do are being explained: low fitness level or illness. Unwise is also brumating an incorrect ID animal (Morrocan vs Ibera) or not knowing what a brumating animal needs.

You can explore in peace, I horripilated only 5 shrinks, but they were the sensitive type, I think :rolleyes:. And yes, I have my tender sensibilities about what's natural and common sense ;)... some things may offend them a little, especially when it is so easy to be natural... but not that much... and, regarding our topic, brumation flows by itself for an outdoor animal.

Wish you health and strength!
 

Terry Allan Hall

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CactusVinnie said:
Well, Terry, that while me too, I am trying to explain that while brumation can be optional, it is not also optimal; a reason to do it being their longterm endocrine normality (health, immunity, hardiness).
Reasons not to do are being explained: low fitness level or illness. Unwise is also brumating an incorrect ID animal (Morrocan vs Ibera) or not knowing what a brumating animal needs.

You can explore in peace, I horripilated only 5 shrinks, but they were the sensitive type, I think :rolleyes:. And yes, I have my tender sensibilities about what's natural and common sense ;)... some things may offend them a little, especially when it is so easy to be natural... but not that much... and, regarding our topic, brumation flows by itself for an outdoor animal.

Wish you health and strength!

To be honest with you (and I hope I can indeed, be honest with you), the only reason I don't ignore your nonsensical prattling-ons about on the subject of "hibernating" tortoises is that your "advice" might lead one of our less experienced members to inadvertantly injure or kill their pet(s)...

Wishing you health and wisdom.
 

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Terry, that is a very rude bullshit from your part, and I can honnestly say that you really disappointed me. You are much over the limits with that… I can understand a joke, even a Russian one… I can take irony like a champ, if I deserved it… but being patronized and insulted by a person less informed than me- because that’s what you are, after all, no offense- it’s too much for me.

Constant contrary replies to all my brumation advices did not bothered me, even you played the same record. Until a point, it's ok, but if don't find ok anymore the way you referred to my advices, as cretine ideas that can lead to innocent tortoise death, if followed, but thanks God, there is Terry saving the situation and exposing the killer ignorance... be serious, and be decent, since the ignorant is the one speaking by its mouth, while the other speaks from experience and reason. Who's who, in our story??

Keep remember that I am not quite in the field, but rather on the profi side compared to you- being an ecologist. As I said it before- and softening it as much as I could- you barely entered the real tortoise world quite recently and after "40 years of keeping Boettgeri" you did not managed to obtain NOTHING, not even accidental babies, that even some beginners can obtain, not general knowledge on tortoises- since your stereotypical poor arguments are not by far knowledge and 99,9% of your (MANY!!!) advices are nothing but a “huge pile of crap”- words learned from prof. Terry, referring once to my posts- if you feel offended, BTW...

I am very sorry, you are older than me, but that is not giving you the right to insult or patronize- and that not even in a crushing intelligent manner, wich I would accept… but it’s not the case. Instead, it is an obligation to be wiser than me, and practice the ancient advice “don’t open your mouth if you are not sure that what you will say is better than silence”. Problem is… you are always sure, and you were never able to bring a real, true reasoning reply in any discussion we had. Or you had with anyone else, in fact.

Remember that post?

I gave you last days 20 minutes from my time... searching through your first messages- those usually are the most savurous and spicy ones, because they show the initial, real level of knowledge of many forum-Barracudas, wich prove to be, in fact, Guppies :D .

You are, in fact, a 2010 beginner, just like me! Well, of course I didn't kept tortoises as long as you did, but talking here about the other level- the true tortoise keeping, wich it seems that we both started in the same year.
You asked elementary questions about food, maturity size and lots of elementary simple things! What breeding? What hatchlings? Incubating technique? What old knowledge- wich is not by far the same with having decades of tortoise keeping!!
So, nothing bad in being a beginner- no matter the age, the will to know is important. But it's embarassing, in my opinion, to be that active in putting me down with quite unfriendly words (although no vulgarity in your language), while there is a very narrow chance that I could know a bit more than you know.


(EDIT 5.Sept.2012- in fact, you still don’t know too much even by now…only your confidence skyrocketed after having that load of EMPTY messages…but the level of knowledge is the same, you being too busy worshiping yourself and your divine, spontane wisdom)

There is no offence/irony in my words- after all, I am a bloody ecology graduate with a master degree, I love tortoises, I had lots of time (as a simple school-teacher) to study them (and that's what I did for maybe hundreds of hours on the Net), including visits in their habitat (4 in 15 years)---> all that giving me an advantage over you- call it unfair if you want.

Read more: http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread-Is-Hibernation-Absolutely-Required?page=7#ixzz25bCLCBk7
......................................................................................................

“Feed him and let him stay awake...hibernation is absolutely optional in European tortoises (and most others).
And, if you don't know what you're doing exactly, it can be deadly.”


Read more: http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread-Tort-not-wanting-to-hibernate#ixzz25b7Xe4oD

Yes, Terry, I second that- ignorance is deadly. Practice what you preach, if you really mean it.
Concerning me, I wanted to be another voice that, knowing what he says, from first-hand experience, offers that experience about a more natural and normal way to keep a captive animal- tortoise or not, to other hobbysts, as I once received good advices too.
My- and some other's- experiences in brumation topic are useful information. In fact, we just explain what is to be done a thing that is horrifying you and never done by you. It's simple: I know more than you about that. Period. You should not speak about what you did not even tried!
Losing animals during brumation would make me learn first, than giving advices. But lost none, no adult, no hatchling- mines or received, no juvenile.

Bottom line:
from the two of us, I am the one speaking from experience, and you the other one. Please try to beat me with what you learned and realised in tortoises, then I will came by myself asking your advice.
Until that...

DISAPPOINTMENT.
 

Terry Allan Hall

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Location (City and/or State)
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CactusVinnie said:
Terry, that is a very rude bullshit from your part, and I can honnestly say that you really disappointed me. You are much over the limits with that… I can understand a joke, even a Russian one… I can take irony like a champ, if I deserved it… but being patronized and insulted by a person less informed than me- because that’s what you are, after all, no offense- it’s too much for me.

Constant contrary replies to all my brumation advices did not bothered me, even you played the same record. Until a point, it's ok, but if don't find ok anymore the way you referred to my advices, as cretine ideas that can lead to innocent tortoise death, if followed, but thanks God, there is Terry saving the situation and exposing the killer ignorance... be serious, and be decent, since the ignorant is the one speaking by its mouth, while the other speaks from experience and reason. Who's who, in our story??

Keep remember that I am not quite in the field, but rather on the profi side compared to you- being an ecologist. As I said it before- and softening it as much as I could- you barely entered the real tortoise world quite recently and after "40 years of keeping Boettgeri" you did not managed to obtain NOTHING, not even accidental babies, that even some beginners can obtain, not general knowledge on tortoises- since your stereotypical poor arguments are not by far knowledge and 99,9% of your (MANY!!!) advices are nothing but a “huge pile of crap”- words learned from prof. Terry, referring once to my posts- if you feel offended, BTW...

I am very sorry, you are older than me, but that is not giving you the right to insult or patronize- and that not even in a crushing intelligent manner, wich I would accept… but it’s not the case. Instead, it is an obligation to be wiser than me, and practice the ancient advice “don’t open your mouth if you are not sure that what you will say is better than silence”. Problem is… you are always sure, and you were never able to bring a real, true reasoning reply in any discussion we had. Or you had with anyone else, in fact.

Remember that post?

I gave you last days 20 minutes from my time... searching through your first messages- those usually are the most savurous and spicy ones, because they show the initial, real level of knowledge of many forum-Barracudas, wich prove to be, in fact, Guppies :D .

You are, in fact, a 2010 beginner, just like me! Well, of course I didn't kept tortoises as long as you did, but talking here about the other level- the true tortoise keeping, wich it seems that we both started in the same year.
You asked elementary questions about food, maturity size and lots of elementary simple things! What breeding? What hatchlings? Incubating technique? What old knowledge- wich is not by far the same with having decades of tortoise keeping!!
So, nothing bad in being a beginner- no matter the age, the will to know is important. But it's embarassing, in my opinion, to be that active in putting me down with quite unfriendly words (although no vulgarity in your language), while there is a very narrow chance that I could know a bit more than you know.


(EDIT 5.Sept.2012- in fact, you still don’t know too much even by now…only your confidence skyrocketed after having that load of EMPTY messages…but the level of knowledge is the same, you being too busy worshiping yourself and your divine, spontane wisdom)

There is no offence/irony in my words- after all, I am a bloody ecology graduate with a master degree, I love tortoises, I had lots of time (as a simple school-teacher) to study them (and that's what I did for maybe hundreds of hours on the Net), including visits in their habitat (4 in 15 years)---> all that giving me an advantage over you- call it unfair if you want.

Read more: http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread-Is-Hibernation-Absolutely-Required?page=7#ixzz25bCLCBk7
......................................................................................................

“Feed him and let him stay awake...hibernation is absolutely optional in European tortoises (and most others).
And, if you don't know what you're doing exactly, it can be deadly.”


Read more: http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread-Tort-not-wanting-to-hibernate#ixzz25b7Xe4oD

Yes, Terry, I second that- ignorance is deadly. Practice what you preach, if you really mean it.
Concerning me, I wanted to be another voice that, knowing what he says, from first-hand experience, offers that experience about a more natural and normal way to keep a captive animal- tortoise or not, to other hobbysts, as I once received good advices too.
My- and some other's- experiences in brumation topic are useful information. In fact, we just explain what is to be done a thing that is horrifying you and never done by you. It's simple: I know more than you about that. Period. You should not speak about what you did not even tried!
Losing animals during brumation would make me learn first, than giving advices. But lost none, no adult, no hatchling- mines or received, no juvenile.

Bottom line:
from the two of us, I am the one speaking from experience, and you the other one. Please try to beat me with what you learned and realised in tortoises, then I will came by myself asking your advice.
Until that...

DISAPPOINTMENT.

Sorry if my being honest w/ you is disappointing, but giving out dangerously bad advice, that could kill some of my favorite creatures on Earth, and bring grief to their owners, particularily those who don't yet know better, just can't be ignored.

Do try to understand, Fabian...it's nothing personal from this end.
 
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