Is this shell rot?

[Tort99]

Hiya, I’ve just noticed these little dips on my Russian tortoise’s shell. Never had them before so I’m a bit concerned. Does anyone have any idea if it’s rot or not? I haven’t changed his conditions. Thank you in advance!

 

[Yvonne G]

No. Shell rot almost never appears on the top shell.

 

[The_Four_Toed_Edward]

It is not shell rot. The green glow in the photo suggests to me that you are using a combo bulb like mercury vapor with both UVB and heat, is this correct?

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

Not shell rot no, Russians don’t really get fungal infections, but either way rot would be on the plastron not the carapace. Would it be ok if you included some information on your housing and overall care? It’s really nice to check in with new members

What are your temperatures like all over? Ie basking temp(directly under the bulb), overall day temps(middle and cooler side), night temps?
What kind of basking bulb is being used specifically? Packaging photos are good if you have any
Do you use indoor uv? If so what kind?
How’s humidity?
What’s his substrate?
What kind of monitoring do you have measuring temp and humidity?
What’s his diet been like with you?

A photo of the full set up would be wonderful! Welcome to the forum from a fellow uk member

 

[Tort99]

Hi everyone, apologies I didn’t see the responses!
Thanks for the thoughts on shell rot I didn’t think it was too but I’ve never noticed that happening to his shell so I am a bit concerned.
So he’s in a table, under the basking light temperature is about 35 degrees and then in the cool end it’s about 25ish. I use a little thermometer and humidity meter to measure. For humidity it sits about 35%. His bulb is this one and is replaced every 6 months. Substrate is beech chips in some areas along with aspen in others along with some slate, rocks etc. I struggle with his diet a bit, he grew up with my parents and it was a limited diet so he’s a bit fussy, it’s mostly different salad leaves, dandelions etc. he seems to be fussy and won’t touch anything new introduced to him. I don’t have an up to date picture of his set up as I’m away but I can post one when I’m back!
If anyone can give me any idea on his shell condition it would be much appreciated and if anyone has any guidance it would be much appreciated as I have taken over his care from my family.
Thanks for reading and hello to UK members!

 

[Tort99]

Hi everyone, apologies I didn’t see the responses!
Thanks for the thoughts on shell rot I didn’t think it was too but I’ve never noticed that happening to his shell so I am a bit concerned.
So he’s in a table, under the basking light temperature is about 35 degrees and then in the cool end it’s about 25ish. I use a little thermometer and humidity meter to measure. For humidity it sits about 35%. His bulb is this one and is replaced every 6 months. Substrate is beech chips in some areas along with aspen in others along with some slate, rocks etc. I struggle with his diet a bit, he grew up with my parents and it was a limited diet so he’s a bit fussy, it’s mostly different salad leaves, dandelions etc. he seems to be fussy and won’t touch anything new introduced to him. I don’t have an up to date picture of his set up as I’m away but I can post one when I’m back!
If anyone can give me any idea on his shell condition it would be much appreciated and if anyone has any guidance it would be much appreciated as I have taken over his care from my family.
Thanks for reading and hello to UK members!

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

Hi everyone, apologies I didn’t see the responses!
Thanks for the thoughts on shell rot I didn’t think it was too but I’ve never noticed that happening to his shell so I am a bit concerned.
So he’s in a table, under the basking light temperature is about 35 degrees and then in the cool end it’s about 25ish. I use a little thermometer and humidity meter to measure. For humidity it sits about 35%. His bulb is this one and is replaced every 6 months. Substrate is beech chips in some areas along with aspen in others along with some slate, rocks etc. I struggle with his diet a bit, he grew up with my parents and it was a limited diet so he’s a bit fussy, it’s mostly different salad leaves, dandelions etc. he seems to be fussy and won’t touch anything new introduced to him. I don’t have an up to date picture of his set up as I’m away but I can post one when I’m back!
If anyone can give me any idea on his shell condition it would be much appreciated and if anyone has any guidance it would be much appreciated as I have taken over his care from my family.
Thanks for reading and hello to UK members!

Hello, thank you for your further housing information, it helps us in giving some tips&pointers.

Temperatures sound pretty good, just be sure to be using digital monitors to measure this because the analog gauges aren’t the most accurate. Be sure there’s a bit of a night drop too, 20c would be fine.

Lighting wise It’s best going with a separate uvb and heat set up, having combined heat and uv, means when adjusting your height to create the desired basking temperature, you’re messing with your UVI zone, they are much more desiccating on the shell(which could explain some of the spots you’re seeing)and their uv output often very unreliable.
There’s the added fact of uv timing, with the uv timing, every other source of information will tell you 12hours of uv. This is essentially an old fashioned rule that has stuck with a lot of keepers, it stems from the presumption that once the basking light or ambient lighting is on, ie the ‘sun’, that uv must coexist the same amount of hours. Fact is, uv rays only peak for a few hours a day, anyone with a uv meter will confirm this. No tortoise is blasted with 12 hours of uv in the wild, therefore it’s not necessary in captivity. Whilst not necessarily dangerous, it’s potentially annoying to the tortoise to have 12hours on uv in the enclosure.
The right uv bulbs are much more expensive to replace once their uv strength diminishes, so it’s definitely best having it on a 4 hour timer that provides them with all the uv they need, saving your bulb life.
Then some cheaper led lighting for your ambient 12 hour light cycle as well as the basking light on the same 12hrs, your ceramics(if ever needed) will run 24/7 on a thermostat, hope that all makes sense
The most recommended up to date indoor uv option is t5 tube fluorescent bulbs, they disperse the uv light over a much wider area. Recommended brands are Arcadia proT5 kit 12% or zoo med reptisun t5 10.0(hood usually sold separate)

For substrate, beech chips and aspen aren’t appropriate as they can’t maintain the proper humidity for you(you want to aim more for 40-50) if they get damp, they’ll mould, I cover substrates and how to maintain it in the links I’ll add

Great one for new comers

Info For New People. Please Read This First.

Hello and welcome to tortoiseforum.org! We are all glad you are here! There is no other forum like this anywhere. We have tens of thousands of members from all over the world ranging from kids with their first tortoise to people who have been breeding and keeping high end tortoises since the...

tortoiseforum.org

This one covers correct equipment(uvb, heating bulbs, lighting etc), sizing(you can get away with slightly smaller indoors if you can build a larger outdoor space when weather permits, but here in the uk, I’d have as big a indoor set up as possible), appropriately maintaining the humidity, safe substrates, there’s lots of visual examples for everything, and a really handy diet link to check out!

Housing adult Russian and Hermans indoors

Hello there! In this thread I’m going to include some information an example of an appropriate indoor set up for an older Herman/russian. As much as it’s encouraged to have tortoises in a safe outdoor enclosure, I understand being from the uk myself, that some climates make it difficult to...

tortoiseforum.org

This includes lots of inspiration for an adult set up both indoors and out! The indoor bit has some good ideas to tackle indoor space whilst still providing the needed roaming room! Check comments too, I’m always adding to it. I know the recommended adult size is intimidating to some, especially if you’ve been lead into thinking he’ll be fine in a smaller set up(very common) but tortoises long term health really does rely on lots of roaming room. If you’re unable to go that big, go as big as possible

Enclosure inspiration

Howdy folks! Hope everyone is well! As you all know, I’m a big fan of making threads that cater more towards visual learners like myself, I’ve really been wanting to create a thread full of adult enclosure inspiration for a while now, I’ve managed to find some great references over time! I do...

tortoiseforum.org

This is toms care guide

The Best Way To Raise Any Temperate Species Of Tortoise

I chose the title of this care sheet very carefully. Are there other ways to raise babies and care for adults? Yes. Yes there are, but those ways are not as good. What follows is the BEST way, according to 30 years of research and experimentation with hundreds of babies of many species. What is...

tortoiseforum.org

This one here is important to go over and keep on hand, it’ll help you avoid the wrong bulbs, substrates, housing etc, I always encourage double checking purchases on the forum too before buying

Common keeping errors

Hello everyone! I’d been a long time lurker on this site long before joining just under a year ago now, over that time I’ve seen these husbandry issues come up time and time again, sometimes with dire consequences☹️ I thought this thread might serve as a good visual guide for these common...

tortoiseforum.org

Really hope you like them! Please feel free to ask any further questions, we’re more than happy to break things down and help you tweak things step by step

 

[Tort99]

Hiya, thank you so much for the detailed reply it is really much appreciated- I want Toby to be in amazing health so I appreciate all the guidance! So for the shell is it just dryness then causing the growth rings to look darker and a bit dipped? I’m trying to research shell problems and can’t seem to find anything that fits. Is it something I need to get a vets opinion on or is it something that can be cured at home? Can I ask you a bit about substrate please? I tried coir in the past and it dried up quickly which then irritated his respiratory system- will adding the water avoid that? I went back to beech chips as the substrate as he had that before and I was concerned about the coir.
Can I also get your opinion on calcium supplements? I’m wondering if it’s a lack of calcium causing the shell difference but he hasn’t had calcium supplements in a while- he won’t eat his food when their sprinkled on and he won’t eat cuttlefish- is there anything I can do about that?

Thank you again!

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

Hiya, thank you so much for the detailed reply it is really much appreciated- I want Toby to be in amazing health so I appreciate all the guidance! So for the shell is it just dryness then causing the growth rings to look darker and a bit dipped? I’m trying to research shell problems and can’t seem to find anything that fits. Is it something I need to get a vets opinion on or is it something that can be cured at home? Can I ask you a bit about substrate please? I tried coir in the past and it dried up quickly which then irritated his respiratory system- will adding the water avoid that? I went back to beech chips as the substrate as he had that before and I was concerned about the coir.
Can I also get your opinion on calcium supplements? I’m wondering if it’s a lack of calcium causing the shell difference but he hasn’t had calcium supplements in a while- he won’t eat his food when their sprinkled on and he won’t eat cuttlefish- is there anything I can do about that?

Thank you again!

No problem at all, honestly looking at the original photos, the ‘dips’ in his shell just look very typical for a wild caught tortoise, most Russians in the uk are captive bred, but the photos of yours does look like he may be a wild caught that was shipped over, was he more or less this size since you’ve had him? Either way I really wouldn’t worry, those dips are purely cosmetic, his shell looks in good condition overallI wouldn’t bother with the vet for this, especially if he's being his usual self.

Yes of course! Most people don’t like using the coir on its own because it does dry out much quicker on the top, which can then make it a bit dusty, with coir you want to make it nice and damp and when held in a fist, it should more or less hold its shape, if loads of water squeezes out, it’s a bit too wet, damp and firmly packed down is the goal, if left loose and fluffy it can dry quicker too. If wanting to try coir again I’d use it as a base and add a layer of orchid bark on top. We personally just use a thick layer of orchid bark and it works a treat with the lukewarm water pour method(mention in housing link), way less messy than coir too. Just be sure to mix it all up once a week or so, so you don’t have any standing moisture at the bottom, only do the pours as and when needed according to your monitors, as long as the lower layer is nice and damp, you’re good to go

Supplement wise, it’s recommended to add a pinch 2-3 times a week, treat it like you’re using it as ‘salt&pepper’, you shouldn’t really be able to see it once sprinkled on, if you can see a bunch of white powder, it’s likely not very appetising for him, just a small pinch does the trick, you can give it a good mix into the food if it helps. Do you offer the cuttlefish in chunks? Most don’t mind having a chomp on it like that, but if your guy isn’t interested, you could try crushing some up on his feed for him

 

[Tort99]

No problem at all, honestly looking at the original photos, the ‘dips’ in his shell just look very typical for a wild caught tortoise, most Russians in the uk are captive bred, but the photos of yours does look like he may be a wild caught that was shipped over, was he more or less this size since you’ve had him? Either way I really wouldn’t worry, those dips are purely cosmetic, his shell looks in good condition overallI wouldn’t bother with the vet for this, especially if he's being his usual self.

Yes of course! Most people don’t like using the coir on its own because it does dry out much quicker on the top, which can then make it a bit dusty, with coir you want to make it nice and damp and when held in a fist, it should more or less hold its shape, if loads of water squeezes out, it’s a bit too wet, damp and firmly packed down is the goal, if left loose and fluffy it can dry quicker too. If wanting to try coir again I’d use it as a base and add a layer of orchid bark on top. We personally just use a thick layer of orchid bark and it works a treat with the lukewarm water pour method(mention in housing link), way less messy than coir too. Just be sure to mix it all up once a week or so, so you don’t have any standing moisture at the bottom, only do the pours as and when needed according to your monitors, as long as the lower layer is nice and damp, you’re good to go

Supplement wise, it’s recommended to add a pinch 2-3 times a week, treat it like you’re using it as ‘salt&pepper’, you shouldn’t really be able to see it once sprinkled on, if you can see a bunch of white powder, it’s likely not very appetising for him, just a small pinch does the trick, you can give it a good mix into the food if it helps. Do you offer the cuttlefish in chunks? Most don’t mind having a chomp on it like that, but if your guy isn’t interested, you could try crushing some up on his feed for him

So I got him when he was 2 and I was 10! He’s about 17 now and I believe he was captive bred but not 100% certain. I can’t remember when he stopped growing but I feel like he’s been the same for a good few years. The dips are entirely brand new from the last week or so and he’s been quite lazy over the last 2 weeks so when I spotted them that’s when I got concerned about shell rot, or even MBD as he just seems to be sleeping a bit more than normal especially as it’s summer. Every time I’ve taken him to the vet they’ve said he has a strong shell and is in good condition but I’ve just been concerned with the wee dips as they’re new and his other scutes are smooth together. I’ve tried researching shell problems but only seem to find info on the 2 above- do you know if there are any other shell problems to worry about?
I’ll try the bark with the coir then to see if he likes that!
Right okay I’ll try be a bit more subtle with it to try and see if he will be keener!
Yes I give it in chunks- I’ve even stained it red with strawberry juice or cucumber juice and he just seems to ignore it, randomly he will take a chunk but will just ignore otherwise. But I’ll try crushing it and see if that helps.
Thank you so much again for the help! I really appreciate it

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

So I got him when he was 2 and I was 10! He’s about 17 now and I believe he was captive bred but not 100% certain. I can’t remember when he stopped growing but I feel like he’s been the same for a good few years. The dips are entirely brand new from the last week or so and he’s been quite lazy over the last 2 weeks so when I spotted them that’s when I got concerned about shell rot, or even MBD as he just seems to be sleeping a bit more than normal especially as it’s summer. Every time I’ve taken him to the vet they’ve said he has a strong shell and is in good condition but I’ve just been concerned with the wee dips as they’re new and his other scutes are smooth together. I’ve tried researching shell problems but only seem to find info on the 2 above- do you know if there are any other shell problems to worry about?
I’ll try the bark with the coir then to see if he likes that!
Right okay I’ll try be a bit more subtle with it to try and see if he will be keener!
Yes I give it in chunks- I’ve even stained it red with strawberry juice or cucumber juice and he just seems to ignore it, randomly he will take a chunk but will just ignore otherwise. But I’ll try crushing it and see if that helps.
Thank you so much again for the help! I really appreciate it

If he was two he was likely pretty much fully grown when you got him, and if that’s the case they may not have been entirely accurate with his age, which isn’t uncommon when they’re wild caught.

When zooming in, the dips almost look like an uneven bit of newer growth, but that wouldn’t have appeared suddenly, is there a chance they’ve been there before, but perhaps a little more subtle so you’ve not noticed them? If they have appeared that suddenly, I’d then be leaning towards a possible knock that’s caused a chip, but it really doesn’t look like that on the photos. I’m going to tag @Tom to have a look for you, he might pick up on something I’ve missed, he’s one of the most experienced here, he’s quite busy these days so you might need to hang tight on a reply. Do those spots feel hard or soft to the touch?

MBD takes time to develop, if his shell feels strong, he’s able to walk without dragging, eats and poops ok, then I don’t think it’s likely to be the case here, his physical condition certainly doesn’t immediately indicate MBD imo, but we do need to address the lethargy as that could indicate there’s something more going on.
Your temperatures sounded good, do you use digital monitors to measure this? The all in one bulbs can be a bit hit and miss when it comes to uvb output, so I guess that’s a possibility, but tbh I’d be surprised if you’ve had multiple inefficient bulbs, that’s unlikely but not impossible.
You did mention his diet hasn’t always been the best and he can be quite fussy, if he’s not been getting enough supplements&nutrients, coupled with potentially less than ideal uvb output, we can’t rule out MBD being a concern, but I’m not convinced it’s the case for your guy, I’ve seen tortoises with worse diets and housing that have managed to avoid developing MBD, it’s much more common for young growing tortoises to develop than full grown adults, but not impossible so obviously I can’t completely rule it out for you.

Has his appetite remained the same despite him being less active? Has he been passing stool ok? Does he have a soak routine? It’s important for hydration.

Do you have a photo of the set up? Sometimes an inadequately lit enclosure can effect activity levels, hence we usually recommend some ambient lighting, but if that’s never been an issue before with his activity that’s probably not it, just a thought.

Okie doke, if you still don’t particularly like the coir, a thick layer of just orchid bark will be fine too

Sounds goodI’m going to go ahead and tag these guys too to see if they’ve have any opinions on what could be up here, @Yvonne G @zovick

No problem at all! Hopefully we can get some others to weigh in here, the more minds the better lol, I will say with improved lighting, diet and supplements, you can halt and even reverse(in some cases) the effects of mbd if it did turn out to be the case

 

[Tort99]

If he was two he was likely pretty much fully grown when you got him, and if that’s the case they may not have been entirely accurate with his age, which isn’t uncommon when they’re wild caught.

When zooming in, the dips almost look like an uneven bit of newer growth, but that wouldn’t have appeared suddenly, is there a chance they’ve been there before, but perhaps a little more subtle so you’ve not noticed them? If they have appeared that suddenly, I’d then be leaning towards a possible knock that’s caused a chip, but it really doesn’t look like that on the photos. I’m going to tag @Tom to have a look for you, he might pick up on something I’ve missed, he’s one of the most experienced here, he’s quite busy these days so you might need to hang tight on a reply. Do those spots feel hard or soft to the touch?

MBD takes time to develop, if his shell feels strong, he’s able to walk without dragging, eats and poops ok, then I don’t think it’s likely to be the case here, his physical condition certainly doesn’t immediately indicate MBD imo, but we do need to address the lethargy as that could indicate there’s something more going on.
Your temperatures sounded good, do you use digital monitors to measure this? The all in one bulbs can be a bit hit and miss when it comes to uvb output, so I guess that’s a possibility, but tbh I’d be surprised if you’ve had multiple inefficient bulbs, that’s unlikely but not impossible.
You did mention his diet hasn’t always been the best and he can be quite fussy, if he’s not been getting enough supplements&nutrients, coupled with potentially less than ideal uvb output, we can’t rule out MBD being a concern, but I’m not convinced it’s the case for your guy, I’ve seen tortoises with worse diets and housing that have managed to avoid developing MBD, it’s much more common for young growing tortoises to develop than full grown adults, but not impossible so obviously I can’t completely rule it out for you.

Has his appetite remained the same despite him being less active? Has he been passing stool ok? Does he have a soak routine? It’s important for hydration.

Do you have a photo of the set up? Sometimes an inadequately lit enclosure can effect activity levels, hence we usually recommend some ambient lighting, but if that’s never been an issue before with his activity that’s probably not it, just a thought.

Okie doke, if you still don’t particularly like the coir, a thick layer of just orchid bark will be fine too

Sounds goodI’m going to go ahead and tag these guys too to see if they’ve have any opinions on what could be up here, @Yvonne G @zovick

No problem at all! Hopefully we can get some others to weigh in here, the more minds the better lol, I will say with improved lighting, diet and supplements, you can halt and even reverse(in some cases) the effects of mbd if it did turn out to be the case

Oh right, he was smaller than he is now when we got him about 15 years ago and he’s definitely grown and matured since then. I didn’t realise they were full grown at 2 I thought it was more like 20? He hasn’t grown for a good few years so would it be normal for him to start growing again now?

His shell feels strong, he is standing tall on his legs and can be very speedy when he wants to and toileting normally too. He gets soaked about 2/3 times a week for about 25ish minutes. The dips feel strong too. His appetite is slightly less but seems happy to eat a bit when I put him in the light area with food nearby. Some days he acts normal and is quite active and then just some days he will have a wander and go back to bed. He can be like that a bit in winter but I’ve not noticed him doing it in the summer before.
I just use little meters to measure but I can get some digital ones, I don’t have an up to date picture of his house but I can show one when I get back to my home. Lighting hasn’t seemed to be an issue before and right now it’s brighter because of the summer.
Thanks again for your help and for answering my numerous questions!! It’s great to have your knowledgeable input! I don’t quite think it’s mbd but it’s great to hear it can be helped if it is!

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

Oh right, he was smaller than he is now when we got him about 15 years ago and he’s definitely grown and matured since then. I didn’t realise they were full grown at 2 I thought it was more like 20? He hasn’t grown for a good few years so would it be normal for him to start growing again now?

His shell feels strong, he is standing tall on his legs and can be very speedy when he wants to and toileting normally too. He gets soaked about 2/3 times a week for about 25ish minutes. The dips feel strong too. His appetite is slightly less but seems happy to eat a bit when I put him in the light area with food nearby. Some days he acts normal and is quite active and then just some days he will have a wander and go back to bed. He can be like that a bit in winter but I’ve not noticed him doing it in the summer before.
I just use little meters to measure but I can get some digital ones, I don’t have an up to date picture of his house but I can show one when I get back to my home. Lighting hasn’t seemed to be an issue before and right now it’s brighter because of the summer.
Thanks again for your help and for answering my numerous questions!! It’s great to have your knowledgeable input! I don’t quite think it’s mbd but it’s great to hear it can be helped if it is!

It can depend, they aren’t necessarily completely fully grown at 2, but a lot of Russians are pretty much done with their main growing stage ages 2-3, they do all have different rates though and it can definitely depend how they’re being raised. It’s not unusual for them to continue growing later in life, but it wouldn’t be much, your guy looks like he’s nearly at full size, if not full sized already.

That all sounds great and personally reassures me that I don’t think MBD is at play here. That’s a great soak routine too

Yeah I’d definitely recommend some digital monitoring, it could be temperatures are a bit below where we think they are, which could affect his activity. But the fact that he’s having days where he’s perfectly active is really good to hear, I’d be more worried if this inactivity was happening all day every day, our tortoise has her lazy days too lol.

Do keep an eye on his appetite, but again it’s very reassuring he’s not off food completely, a poorly tortoise wouldn’t be eating at all. Your guy might like trying some of this stuff

You soak each cube in water(quanties on packet) and it turns into a mushy grassy texture, you can add it to his fresh greens, most tortoises relish it(ours loves it) so I’m curious if maybe your guy might like it, it’s really great for getting more variety in too, seeing as he’s super fussy he might not go for it right away, so if trying it, introduce it slowly on a couple of feeds a week, don’t add too much right awaythought it was worth a mention because it is really good stuff and helps provide a more balanced diet, it’s a bit on the expensive side, but does last a while in our experience.

No problem at all! If anything else pops up or you have any other questions, please ask away

 

[Tort99]

It can depend, they aren’t necessarily completely fully grown at 2, but a lot of Russians are pretty much done with their main growing stage ages 2-3, they do all have different rates though and it can definitely depend how they’re being raised. It’s not unusual for them to continue growing later in life, but it wouldn’t be much, your guy looks like he’s nearly at full size, if not full sized already.

That all sounds great and personally reassures me that I don’t think MBD is at play here. That’s a great soak routine too

Yeah I’d definitely recommend some digital monitoring, it could be temperatures are a bit below where we think they are, which could affect his activity. But the fact that he’s having days where he’s perfectly active is really good to hear, I’d be more worried if this inactivity was happening all day every day, our tortoise has her lazy days too lol.

Do keep an eye on his appetite, but again it’s very reassuring he’s not off food completely, a poorly tortoise wouldn’t be eating at all. Your guy might like trying some of this stuff
View attachment 392801
You soak each cube in water(quanties on packet) and it turns into a mushy grassy texture, you can add it to his fresh greens, most tortoises relish it(ours loves it) so I’m curious if maybe your guy might like it, it’s really great for getting more variety in too, seeing as he’s super fussy he might not go for it right away, so if trying it, introduce it slowly on a couple of feeds a week, don’t add too much right awaythought it was worth a mention because it is really good stuff and helps provide a more balanced diet, it’s a bit on the expensive side, but does last a while in our experience.

No problem at all! If anything else pops up or you have any other questions, please ask away

I’m pleased you don’t think it’s MBD! I’ve bought some of that food to try it out with him and hopefully he will eat it! Thank you again for all your recommendations and tips, it is much appreciated