Kamp Kenan

[tortoise16 2003]

It’s been about 11-12 months since the Greeks I sold to my buddy started showing symptoms of what could be AW and they are still doing fine he said 2 males died right after he revived them but the rest are doing fine around 4-5 I’ll check back with him to get another update. If it is AW and the tortoises are surviving with it could that be a good thing should those animals be send to the lab to be tested?

 

[wellington]

It’s been about 11-12 months since the Greeks I sold to my buddy started showing symptoms of what could be AW and they are still doing fine he said 2 males died right after he revived them but the rest are doing fine around 4-5 I’ll check back with him to get another update. If it is AW and the tortoises are surviving with it could that be a good thing should those animals be send to the lab to be tested?

Are the Greeks adults? Even if they do survive and it is AW they still would not be able to be bred or they would/could pass it on to the hatchlings.

 

[dd33]

Were the greek tortoises adults? Did it spread to any of his other reptiles?

 

[tortoise16 2003]

Yeah the Greeks are adults he keeps the Greeks in an entirely separate location away from all his other reptiles. Yes they can pass it to other but since they are in an entirely separate location everything should be fine

 

[wellington]

Yeah the Greeks are adults he keeps the Greeks in an entirely separate location away from all his other reptiles. Yes they can pass it to other but since they are in an entirely separate location everything should be fine

That may be why they are surviving. I believe all that has been tested and that is known to have died so far that anyone knows of are hatchlings. Maybe adults can fight it much better.
I sure hope your friend is not breeding and selling babies.
Also they need to be totally clean and sanitized before touching or going into another torts enclosure. Wearing the same shoes from one enclosure to another with spread it.

 

[tortoise16 2003]

That may be why they are surviving. I believe all that has been tested and that is known to have died so far that anyone knows of are hatchlings. Maybe adults can fight it much better.
I sure hope your friend is not breeding and selling babies.
Also they need to be totally clean and sanitized before touching or going into another torts enclosure. Wearing the same shoes from one enclosure to another with spread it.

He isn’t breeding them and they are kept in tubs so the doesn’t walk in the enclosures.

 

[mark1]

hard to really say. they know it can be spread through fecal matter along with water, soil etc. so if the female defecates on the eggs or if the area becomes contaminated it can be spread that way.

they are doing radiation daily right now along with surgery i hope this week or next. we are def hoping for it to all go smoothly. they think for now they can get the spots treated and hopefully we dont see recurrence any time soon.

best of luck with your treatment, they're getting better at every day .....

 

[mark1]

Why are you doubting this so much? We have several cases already on here that fit the AW desease. Mastershake has been working with this for some time now and has proof of many cases. He or this forum can't make everyone that is suspected of having it in their tort send their tort in to be tested. I think with the proof mastershake has told us about is enough proof that this is spreading like wild fire and people should suspect it if their torts have any symptoms or be very cautious of buying anything from anyone.

this is the internet , i've seen "wildfires" that were in reality campfires ............. i believe this disease has been around a whole lot longer than you folks realize ........... i doubt it's anymore of an emerging epidemic than any of the incurable viral, bacterial , fungal or parasitic diseases that commonly occur in captive reptiles ... i see sulcatas for sale in lots of 100 , that's 100 tortoises kept in close proximity , often in hot wet conditions (dermatophilosis congolensis , is known as "rain rot") these babies are soak in communal tubs of water , any of the myriad of infectious diseases fatal to reptiles is a threat under those conditions ....... where do these 100 lot of tortoises go ? pet homes for 30 bucks and they die from a bacterial , viral , fungal or parasitic disease ....... i am sure the majority of all sulcatas hatched die within the first year....... i assure you if i were to tell you what the folks who have written articles on this disease recommend be done to avoid this disease , you would tell me they haven't a clue what they are talking about ..........

serious question , how many members of this board have had a documented case of AW ???????
most of what mastershake says i believe , but there has been some "misspeak" that has stood out to me ........

my pictures , 4 are AW the rest are not ......

 

[wellington]

this is the internet , i've seen "wildfires" that were in reality campfires ............. i believe this disease has been around a whole lot longer than you folks realize ........... i doubt it's anymore of an emerging epidemic than any of the incurable viral, bacterial , fungal or parasitic diseases that commonly occur in captive reptiles ... i see sulcatas for sale in lots of 100 , that's 100 tortoises kept in close proximity , often in hot wet conditions (dermatophilosis congolensis , is known as "rain rot") these babies are soak in communal tubs of water , any of the myriad of infectious diseases fatal to reptiles is a threat under those conditions ....... where do these 100 lot of tortoises go ? pet homes for 30 bucks and they die from a bacterial , viral , fungal or parasitic disease ....... i am sure the majority of all sulcatas hatched die within the first year....... i assure you if i were to tell you what the folks who have written articles on this disease recommend be done to avoid this disease , you would tell me they haven't a clue what they are talking about ..........

serious question , how many members of this board have had a documented case of AW ???????
most of what mastershake says i believe , but there has been some "misspeak" that has stood out to me ........

my pictures , 4 are AW the rest are not ......

Don't think any members of the "board" even deals with young new hatchlings that they purchase, so none I know of.
Not everyone that buys them joins the forum. So we will never know the severity. Most diseases are around for a while before its discovered and then even longer before its determined to be something that is bad enough to look into. Specially when you're dealing with animals and then on top of that tortoises.
I have been on here since 2011 and never heard of this. Also have had multiple lizards and never heard of this.
I believe the longer term members have never heard of this. It seems to have spread fast and with all similar symptoms.
I just don't think it can be taken lightly. Anyone soaking 100 plus hatchlings in one bin is like a filthy no good puppy mill breeder. I have seen a few of our members with lots of babies but always multiple soaking bins.
If the trail could be followed back to the original source, I'd bet it's one of those no good puppy mill type breeders.

 

[mark1]

dermatophilosis infections have been known for 100yrs , been known in reptiles for at least 50yrs ...... not long ago every dermatophilosis infection was congolensis ....... since dna identification i don't believe congolensis has ever been diagnosed in a reptile ....... makes me wonder what those dermatophilus infections in reptiles 50yrs ago were before they were using dna technology .......

 

[turtlesteve]

this is the internet , i've seen "wildfires" that were in reality campfires ............. i believe this disease has been around a whole lot longer than you folks realize ........... i doubt it's anymore of an emerging epidemic than any of the incurable viral, bacterial , fungal or parasitic diseases that commonly occur in captive reptiles ... i see sulcatas for sale in lots of 100 , that's 100 tortoises kept in close proximity , often in hot wet conditions (dermatophilosis congolensis , is known as "rain rot") these babies are soak in communal tubs of water , any of the myriad of infectious diseases fatal to reptiles is a threat under those conditions ....... where do these 100 lot of tortoises go ? pet homes for 30 bucks and they die from a bacterial , viral , fungal or parasitic disease ....... i am sure the majority of all sulcatas hatched die within the first year....... i assure you if i were to tell you what the folks who have written articles on this disease recommend be done to avoid this disease , you would tell me they haven't a clue what they are talking about ..........

serious question , how many members of this board have had a documented case of AW ???????
most of what mastershake says i believe , but there has been some "misspeak" that has stood out to me ........

my pictures , 4 are AW the rest are not ......

I’m more inclined to think the opposite is true; this isn’t being exaggerated, it’s being dismissed and/or suppressed - big players in the marketplace don’t want to talk about it or admit it. This is about the only place where the disease is being discussed openly.

Yes, almost all sulcata hatchlings die in the first year or so, but rarely from infectious disease (unless it’s secondary to poor care, e.g. respiratory infections due to being too cold, etc.).

Sure it’s possible this has been around longer than we’ve realized, but that doesn’t mean it hasn’t become a fairly big crisis recently…

 

[Cayleh]

I was at the Daytona show and did not see him there and I don't see him listed in the vendor list. Where was his booth if you don't mind me asking? I did both rooms several times both days. Thanks.

He did not have his own booth. He was at a friends booth. It was in the middle of the big room. The sign simply said "Tortoises" and it was next to a booth selling all sorts of massive cork barks.

 

[Cayleh]

probably your post deserves an answer ........... i've had one interaction with the kenun guy , not a fan , one interaction was all i needed ..........

for someone to join and post this accusation the same day is certainly indicative of a pissed off individual .......hopefully they come back with more info ........

as far as self diagnoses , or a vet diagnosing on sight , if that were as easy as it is , well they wouldn't need cultures, pcr test, or microscopes .......not to mention more often than not a sick animal has more than one thing going on at a time ,often folks find what they're wanting or expecting to find ............

here's a half dozen or so diagnosed diseases , which ones are austwickia ?????

Gee, I apologize that I did not respond fast enough for you? Im a nurse who works 60+ hour work weeks, who took on a friend's dad as a private client helping him through end of life, this post was not my priority the last week. Not to mention the forum is NOT mobile friendly because I have an ad take up half my screen when Im on mobile, and I am not on a computer often.

And darn right I am mad about this situation. I bought 2 babies, only to have to almost immediately euthanize one of them. Anyone who WOULDN'T be upset at this, is not a person I want to deal with. And to top it off, multiple people have come forward with sick animals from the same guy and not gotten responses.

 

[mark1]

I’m more inclined to think the opposite is true; this isn’t being exaggerated, it’s being dismissed and/or suppressed - big players in the marketplace don’t want to talk about it or admit it. This is about the only place where the disease is being discussed openly.

Yes, almost all sulcata hatchlings die in the first year or so, but rarely from infectious disease (unless it’s secondary to poor care, e.g. respiratory infections due to being too cold, etc.).

Sure it’s possible this has been around longer than we’ve realized, but that doesn’t mean it hasn’t become a fairly big crisis recently…

if someone runs across a street and gets run over and killed by a car , i guess you would be correct in saying they died from running across a street .... when turtles or tortoises become immunocompromised, for whatever reason, they can and do harbor bacteria , parasites, viruses , and fungi that can be pathogenic and fatal .......... herpes virus is fairly common in tortoises , it can be asymptomatic in a "healthy" adult , until they become immunocompromised ...... herpes virus can be passed from the mother to the hatchlings through the nest or egg shells..... herpes virus is near 100% fatal to a hatchling tortoise ........ mycoplasma is another, a tortoise can be completely healthy and harbor mycoplasma bacteria , until they become immunocompromised .......university of florida within the last few years has published articles about a helicobacter bacteria that is killing gopher tortoises ...... i believe helicobacter is a bacteria that can be found in the gut of healthy animals , the fact it can also be a pathogen under the right circumstance , i believe such things are referred to as a pathobiants ......... i think it's also true if you run across a street and get run over by a car , you died from getting run over by a car ........

"it's only being talked about here" i think i could use that as an argument for my belief???????

 

[mark1]

Gee, I apologize that I did not respond fast enough for you? Im a nurse who works 60+ hour work weeks, who took on a friend's dad as a private client helping him through end of life, this post was not my priority the last week. Not to mention the forum is NOT mobile friendly because I have an ad take up half my screen when Im on mobile, and I am not on a computer often.

And darn right I am mad about this situation. I bought 2 babies, only to have to almost immediately euthanize one of them. Anyone who WOULDN'T be upset at this, is not a person I want to deal with. And to top it off, multiple people have come forward with sick animals from the same guy and not gotten responses.

i actually never asked you a question to answer ????? hopefully the guy refunded your money ????? beyond that it's how we learn ....... these animals don't go from healthy to dead in a couple days .....

 

[wellington]

if someone runs across a street and gets run over and killed by a car , i guess you would be correct in saying they died from running across a street .... when turtles or tortoises become immunocompromised, for whatever reason, they can and do harbor bacteria , parasites, viruses , and fungi that can be pathogenic and fatal .......... herpes virus is fairly common in tortoises , it can be asymptomatic in a "healthy" adult , until they become immunocompromised ...... herpes virus can be passed from the mother to the hatchlings through the nest or egg shells..... herpes virus is near 100% fatal to a hatchling tortoise ........ mycoplasma is another, a tortoise can be completely healthy and harbor mycoplasma bacteria , until they become immunocompromised .......university of florida within the last few years has published articles about a helicobacter bacteria that is killing gopher tortoises ...... i believe helicobacter is a bacteria that can be found in the gut of healthy animals , the fact it can also be a pathogen under the right circumstance , i believe such things are referred to as a pathobiants ......... i think it's also true if you run across a street and get run over by a car , you died from getting run over by a car ........

"it's only being talked about here" i think i could use that as an argument for my belief???????

I don't understand what you are saying with that last line?
I take it as you think its gotta be a joke or not true if its talked about on this forum?
Its obviously being talked about with what ever place mastershake is working with. Likely its talked about in other places that turtlesteve is not aware of, I would imagine. As for other tortoise forums, most are a joke or not active. Others are more into selling then proper care and concerns.

 

[mark1]

I take it as you think its gotta be a joke or not true if its talked about on this forum?

that's an interesting leap of logic from my responses .......
if there were no useful information to be gained on this forum i wouldn't read it ????????? there are some very knowledgeable experienced members here to learn from ....... do i think there is incorrect info given on this forum ? obviously ........
if your tortoise or turtle actually gets austwickia it's no "joke" , the animal is most likely gonna die ........... did the op's 2nd tortoise also die ?

the only thing i've seen semi"recently" talked about in terms of austwickia is the diphtheria like toxin ........

in the paper written on the reclassification of austwickia 1995 , the three samples used were taken from a tortoise in 1980 , a turtle in 1982 , and a turtle in 1987 ........

i believe there are at least a few folks who deal in selling turtle and tortoises on here ?
i actually don't know of any other tortoise turtle forums , so i have no idea what they talk about ........
where have i looked to see who is talking about it ?
some of the places i've had access to , to look and see what's been/being "talked about" , journal of comparative pathology , journal of wildlife disease , journal of herpetological medicine and surgery , journal of zoo and wildlife medicine , journal of herpetology , journal of small animal practice, journal of general and applied microbiology , international bulletin of bacteriological nomenclature and taxonomy , veterinary clinics of north america exotic animal practice, international zoo yearbook , african journal of ecology , journal of exotic pet medicine , zoo biology, oryx , biological conservation , studies of neotropical fauna and environment , journal of zoology , veterinary world , journal of comparative pathology , veterinary dermatology .......

 

[wellington]

that's an interesting leap of logic from my responses .......
if there were no useful information to be gained on this forum i wouldn't read it ????????? there are some very knowledgeable experienced members here to learn from ....... do i think there is incorrect info given on this forum ? obviously ........
if your tortoise or turtle actually gets austwickia it's no "joke" , the animal is most likely gonna die ........... did the op's 2nd tortoise also die ?

the only thing i've seen semi"recently" talked about in terms of austwickia is the diphtheria like toxin ........

in the paper written on the reclassification of austwickia 1995 , the three samples used were taken from a tortoise in 1980 , a turtle in 1982 , and a turtle in 1987 ........

i believe there are at least a few folks who deal in selling turtle and tortoises on here ?
i actually don't know of any other tortoise turtle forums , so i have no idea what they talk about ........
where have i looked to see who is talking about it ?
some of the places i've had access to , to look and see what's been/being "talked about" , journal of comparative pathology , journal of wildlife disease , journal of herpetological medicine and surgery , journal of zoo and wildlife medicine , journal of herpetology , journal of small animal practice, journal of general and applied microbiology , international bulletin of bacteriological nomenclature and taxonomy , veterinary clinics of north america exotic animal practice, international zoo yearbook , african journal of ecology , journal of exotic pet medicine , zoo biology, oryx , biological conservation , studies of neotropical fauna and environment , journal of zoology , veterinary world , journal of comparative pathology , veterinary dermatology .......

Thanks for clarifying. I was hoping I was reading your last line wrong.

 

[Cathie G]

It’s been about 11-12 months since the Greeks I sold to my buddy started showing symptoms of what could be AW and they are still doing fine he said 2 males died right after he revived them but the rest are doing fine around 4-5 I’ll check back with him to get another update. If it is AW and the tortoises are surviving with it could that be a good thing should those animals be send to the lab to be tested?

That's a really interesting question. I would at least want to know exactly what I'm dealing with first before I make any decisions. So yes to a diagnosis but the right way. Especially since they could be a carrier of aw. I'm not an expert to tell you how to do that but it just makes sense to me.🤗

 

[mike taylor]

Don't get me wrong not taking up for Kamp Keenan. I go t a lot of reptile shows. I watch people handle animals at one booth and move on to another with no hand washing in between. This could be the reason for a sick animal picked up at a show. I will not let people handle my animals at my house or anywhere else without washing their hands first. Most vendors don't care. I was at the show here in Conroe Texas this past weekend and a vender had a net put up so people couldn't openly handle his animals without hand sanitizer first. He also passed out gloves. That tells me he's trying to keep healthy animals for sell.